Ross Miner Out Of Olympic Team (OFFICIAL)

[Rock2]

I respect the objective of fielding the team with the best potential for results/medals. I can't in a wholesale way fault the USFSA for this.

However, as you focus on this objective you risk overlooking occasions when someone out of your sights skates for it, raising their hand in an important moment. Happened here. In this case you're always going to fudge/interpret/tweak the criteria to select who you ultimately want.

That dynamic feels less 'sporting' to me, where athletes no matter how you cut it will only have so much influence in gaining access to the team through their performance and by having that moment when everyone was watching. It will continue to come down to a subjective vote, shrouded in whatever mask of objectivity the powers that be decide to fabricate for the cycle.

Said another way, the real drama doesn't unfold so much on the ice, but in a meeting hours later beyond closed doors.

 

[Rock2]

Having said that skating is not a popular sport. Other than the 50 or 100 people who follow this closely and passionately and are mad about this, there doesn't seem an outrage in the media.

You said it.
The media (outside of someone like Brennan) only cares about the athletes who transcend the sport and are known in general market media. I think Ashley and to a lesser degree Adam and Nathan have any name recognition outside of the sport among current athletes. The public is not invested in Ross, so there won't be much heat or coverage on this.

If anything, collective eyeroll from the public that has become increasingly disinterested in the controversies in skating.

Ashley is on her way to the TODAY show to make an appearance. Ross should really be on it. But, that's what happens when you work hard to cultivate a media presence and image. Gets you something.

This is why USFSA has nothing to worry about. Yes, tempest in a teapot. It's all but blown over.

 

[overedge]

@jlai I see what you are saying, but a judge can be present to explain what happened in the competition without voting on the Olympic team decision.

As it is, *if* someone had a hidden agenda in favouring one skater over another, being an official and/or judge at the event and then also having a say in the Olympic team event would give them two opportunities to push that agenda. That's a conflict of interest IMO.

 

[jlai]

@jlai I see what you are saying, but a judge can be present to explain what happened in the competition without voting on the Olympic team decision.

As it is, *if* someone had a hidden agenda in favouring one skater over another, being an official and/or judge at the event and then also having a say in the Olympic team event would give them two opportunities to push that agenda. That's a conflict of interest IMO.

IF
If a judge is corrupt there is a process for it. And if us is going with national finish like an Olympic trial then the corrupt judge would have done its job at the first stage.
In my state, the law allows for the scenario you mention and it is not conflict.

 

[overedge]

If a judge is corrupt in judging in the afternoon and then deciding the Olympic team that same night, the process to deal with them isn't going to kick in fast enough to make a difference.

 

[jlai]

i have taken numerous conflict of interest training and some stricter than others and in no scenarios is this situation a conflict.

Because the committee is NOT a review panel of the judging. The judge is there to provide one perspective among 13 on a skater's ability to perform in a different competition.

FYI I used to be an auditor.

 

[jlai]

In schools here if a student got in trouble in class and subject to discipline, one of the student's teachers is allowed to provide input along with the assistant principal and stakeholders. Having one teacher input is not a conflict because of this off chance the teacher is prejudiced against the student or whatever. We are not disciplining skaters of course but the evaluation process stays the same.

 

[aftershocks]

Ah well, it's hard to say what exactly was discussed by the committee members, aside from their randomly put together criteria which doesn't prove how the athletes in question will fare at the Olympics. IMO, the vote should have been Adam vs Vincent, not Adam vs Ross. There's no question that Adam belongs on the Olympic team.

Furthermore, only Nathan, possibly Bradie and Mirai as a wild card (along with the three ice dance teams vying for bronze) have the opportunity to medal in the singles events. In terms of the team event, there is a limited number of skaters who can participate. Therefore, there wasn't any need to dump Ross from the Olympic team. And once again, in the best case scenario, Vincent will have at least two more opportunities going forward to participate in an Olympics. His quads are not completely mastered to the point where he's guaranteed to make that much difference to a team event, when Adam and Nathan are the ones who will likely be chosen. I hope USFS makes the right decisions for the team event.

More importantly, we don't know what benefit it might have brought to the entire team to include Ross on the Olympic team on the basis of merit, and as a stand-up guy and team player who is well-liked by everyone. Even without Ross participating in the team event, his inclusion on the Olympic team might have been an intangible which could have made a huge difference, not just for Ross but for Team USA as a whole. With his inspirational effort at Nationals, and with his team spirit, Ross could have contributed a great deal. Sadly, this is something the selection committee obviously never even thought to consider. They were too wrapped up in numbers and in head-to-head comparisons that ultimately will have no bearing on what happens at the Olympics in the team event, nor in the singles events. By dumping Ross, it sends a very negative signal and poses a lot of serious questions and complications that will continue to haunt USFS for years to come.

 

[dinakt]

Before the discussion winds down, I am just registering my opinion- the decision to leave Ross out of both Olympics and Worlds soured this Nationals for me. Not giving him even the first alternate looks petty and cruel.
For me it is not about Adam vs Ross. I can justify and support sending Adam to the Olympics (USA needs the second skater for the team event and Adam has the best record apart from Nathan). I cannot in any way justify completely overlooking a skater who placed second at Nationals (and no, 4CC does not count as a plum for the Silver medalist). There were so many scenarios in which Adam could be sent to Olympics but Ross would have been still rewarded for the skate of his life. Between Ross and Vincent one should have gotten Olympics and another one- 4CC and Worlds. Or give Adam only the Olympics and send the podium to Worlds. Anything would have been better than what the Federation did. About three spots- sometimes supporting an athlete who just skated the best skate of his life at Nationals is more important than theoretical three spots. We are all used to sport breaking athletes' hearts, but this incident is too much for my liking.
I studied the criteria. I support considering BOW. But Nationals should weigh much more than anything from last year, and silver medals should be much harder to bump than Bronze.
I find selection like that dispiriting for the athletes and questionable for the fans (at least some fans, like me).
And then there is Grant's non-selection. Which is just as strange. I agree with Mark Mitchell in that if BOW has so much value, there is not much incentive for older skaters who might have an outside shot (last shot) to even train at all.

 

[aftershocks]

... the decision to leave Ross out of both Olympics and Worlds soured this Nationals for me. Not giving him even the first alternate looks petty and cruel. For me it is not about Adam vs Ross. I can justify and support sending Adam to the Olympics (USA needs the second skater for the team event and Adam has the best record apart from Nathan). I cannot in any way justify completely overlooking a skater who placed second at Nationals (and no, 4CC does not count as a plum for the Silver medalist). There were so many scenarios in which Adam could be sent to Olympics but Ross would have been still rewarded for the skate of his life. Between Ross and Vincent one should have gotten Olympics and another one- 4CC and Worlds. Or give Adam only the Olympics and send the podium to Worlds...

^^ Exactly! USFS and their selection committee completely missed the boat. It's not blown over @Rock2. It's soured fans and sent the wrong signal to skaters as well. USFS did not consider all of the ramifications and once again, similar to 2014, they have been disingenuous in claiming it's Adam vs Ross, instead of Adam vs Vincent. Furthermore, Adam skated better than Vincent overall and Adam's PCS are superior. That should have been the criteria, along with Adam's BOW over Vincent's. Nathan and Ross as the gold and silver Nationals medalists earned their spots.

In 2014, it was questionable placing Polina over Ashley in the sp. In the fp, it was questionable placing Polina over Mirai, as Mirai was the only top lady to skate cleanly in the fp. The issue was that USFS did not want to send Mirai to the Olympics. They were down on her from the season before. And they didn't even want her to rebuild her career after the Olympics selection debacle, as they tried to sabotage the prospect of Mirai being coached by Tom Z. Fortunately, they did not succeed. Mirai and Tom Z succeeded.

As well, it was Adam Rippon and Ashley Wagner who made their own careers after being sent the message by USFS that their careers were over. Not so fast USFS.

USFS should have given this men's selection decision more thought, and at the least if they were going to go against Ross vs Vincent (which is what they actually did) on the basis of their recently devised criteria, they needed to be more respectful toward Ross and toward his coaches. USFS needed to be better prepared for the press conference too. They were slap-hazard and demeaning in how they handled the situation. They did not satisfactorily address the tough questions. And yet they want everyone to stop talking about it, sweep it under the rug and go along with the program.

In another Olympic year, USFS have shot themselves and some of their skaters in the foot. We need to be celebrating the prospects for Nathan Chen, Bradie Tennell and the entire team, and that could be the sole focus for the media and for fans had USFS handled the selection process in a more sensitive and professional manner. As usual, they didn't. Better yet, handle the scoring more fairly and maybe the awkward, recently devised and ineffectively put together selection process would not have been necessary.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Disgusting! Was writing “love letters” to rippon to Instagram a requirement?!

Which brings us to the demise of FS popularity. The fix was in. Why compete? Why watch? This is the agony of victory and the thrill of defeat. I could
...grudgingly I can see a case for not putting him on the team. But to not be first alternate
.shame on them

 

[overedge]

i have taken numerous conflict of interest training and some stricter than others and in no scenarios is this situation a conflict.

Because the committee is NOT a review panel of the judging. The judge is there to provide one perspective among 13 on a skater's ability to perform in a different competition.

FYI I used to be an auditor.

No, the committee is not a review panel for the judging. And there is certainly no financial benefit to a judge in the event from choosing someone for the Olympic team, unless there is a really skeezy going on.

But many conflict of interest policies state that individuals also need to act so as to avoid the *perception* of CoI, not just an actual clear situation of CoI. IMO having someone make the choice who also was part of the group that made the choices in an earlier stage could be perceived as CoI.

 

[jlai]

All conflict of interest trainings I received include perception of coi (which is the whole point) and it still doesn't cover what you'd said.

You are saying a teacher who has given a student grade cannot have input to the principal later about that student. Or an auditor who has done an audit of an entity cannot be include in some enforcement committee at a later stage. That NEVER happens in real life in my part of the world

 

[Skittl1321]

Ah well, it's hard to say what exactly was discussed by the committee members, aside from their randomly put together criteria which doesn't prove how the athletes in question will fare at the Olympics. IMO, the vote should have been Adam vs Vincent, not Adam vs Ross. There's no question that Adam belongs on the Olympic team.

Or maybe, it was Vincent vs. Ross?

Yes, they had to justify taking Adam and leaving Ross; but we don't know all the discussion that went on in the room- it wasn't necessarily a 1:1 swap here; but a "who are the best 3".

(And I still think Mirai was dumped for Polina, not for Ashley, though obviously it looked that way.)

 

[vesperholly]

Which brings us to the demise of FS popularity. The fix was in. Why compete? Why watch? This is the agony of victory and the thrill of defeat. I could
...grudgingly I can see a case for not putting him on the team. But to not be first alternate
.shame on them

It's not like Ross skated lights-out and was off the podium (Janet Lynn anyone?). He still earned the silver medal. He just didn't have the record to justify further assignments.

 

[aftershocks]

Ross 'Boss' Miner's first interview with a local tv station in Boston since the National championships. Wow, Ross seems like such an easygoing, even-tempered and laid back kind of guy. Listening to him, I can detect some sadness and disappointment. The reporter said Ross didn't know why he wasn't selected, but we don't get to see Ross say that nor the context. I guess it's difficult to explain fs BOW wow to the media. They never get anything right about figure skating anyway. Obviously, it's hard to not be hopeful when it's something you've worked for and desired all of your life, even though you know full well the new BOW directive, it doesn't mean you believe it's going to necessarily be applied to you if you come in second place. Ross could have had the hope that skating officials would go ahead and give him this opportunity in his final season after his outstanding performances, and especially after the scores he received.

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news...Miner-Shocked-by-Olympics-Snub-468535473.html

Ross: "My goal was just to get off the ice knowing that I had left it all on the table, and that's exactly what I did... I know I'm going to have that feeling with me for the rest of my life and nothing can take that away... I wasn't on the billboards, I wasn't on the street signs for this championships [which] makes it a little harder to make the Olympic team..."

The reporter mentions that Ross also said he has not yet decided whether he plans to compete again, so we don't know yet whether Ross will actually compete at 4CCs.

During the interview, Ross told the reporter he got this text stating: "You've been selected as an alternate to the 2018 Olympic team." Oh joy, just what he always wanted.

 

[Seerek]

In unrelated news from a non-BOW perspective, former inline speed skating Junior World Champion Erin Jackson qualified for Pyeongchang at the U.S. Speed Skating Olympic Trials (also this past weekend) in the 500m despite only having been on ice for four months prior to the trials.

 

[aftershocks]

And I still think Mirai was dumped for Polina, not for Ashley, though obviously it looked that way.

Well yep, Ashley was always going to be named to the 2010 Olympic team as a back-to-back GPF bronze medalist. Sure it's just like the false narrative that Ross was dumped for Adam, when the point is the committee prefers Vincent over Ross. And if Jason had somehow not made so many mistakes and placed fourth in front of Vincent, and Adam had placed in front of Ross with Ross in third, it's likely that Ross would have been dumped for Jason. No matter what, Ross was the odd guy out. So why wasn't he told he was competing for 4th place at best?!!

Oh well. I don't know why some people think this situation is going to simply go away. It won't. There will be repercussions. US fed doesn't know how to learn anything, nor how to strategically develop effective responses to hypothetical scenarios. They are in desperate need of crisis management help.

 

[legjumper]

While as a selfish fan, I would really love to see Ross finish out his season (and eligible skating career) at an ISU Championship, I can totally understand if he chooses to skip 4CC after the roller coaster of emotions from Nationals. And if he chooses to end his career at Nationals, he went out with an Olympic-caliber set of performances. All my respect to him, no matter what he chooses.

 

[Skittl1321]

Well yep, Ashley was always going to be named to the 2010 Olympic team as a back-to-back GPF bronze medalist. Sure it's just like the false narrative that Ross was dumped for Adam, when the point is the committee prefers Vincent over Ross. And if Jason had somehow not made so many mistakes and placed fourth in front of Vincent, and Adam had placed in front of Ross with Ross in third, it's likely that Ross would have been dumped for Jason. No matter what, Ross was the odd guy out. So why wasn't he told he was competing for 4th place at best?!!

Oh well. I don't know why some people think this situation is going to simply go away. It won't. There will be repercussions. US fed doesn't know how to learn anything, nor to strategize effective responses to hypothetical scenarios. They are in desperate need of crisis management help.

He won his silver medal; he wasn't competing for 4th place. This was not the "going to the Olympics competition". It was the national championship, and he did get 2nd place in that.

 

[suef]

I dunno...are you a federation member? I think USFS needs to be accountable to the athletes, the O committee and the their members. It is the media and the public who think they have right to know(that way reporters have stories and the public naturally are curious and think they are entitled to an opinion)

Wait, what? I'm not allowed to have an opinion?

 

[suef]

Double post

 

[flyingsit]

By deciding to bypass Ross, the committee put themselves in a very difficult situation. And Ross' and Vincent's scores being so close made it even more difficult.

• Adam qualified for GPF.
• Vincent was 4th and 9th at his two GPs but won Junior Worlds last year, and was the silver medalist at 2017 Nationals.
• Ross was 6th at his only GP was was 5th at 2017 Nationals.

So Ross vs. Vincent should have been a fairly close decision, EXCEPT that Vincent was the silver medalist last year and not sent to Worlds. Bypassing someone on the podium two years in a row would have looked bad too. And the fact that last year the silver medalist was not given the highest-prestige assignment was a precursor to what happened this time too.

 

[Rock2]

Before the discussion winds down, I am just registering my opinion- the decision to leave Ross out of both Olympics and Worlds soured this Nationals for me. Not giving him even the first alternate looks petty and cruel.
For me it is not about Adam vs Ross. I can justify and support sending Adam to the Olympics (USA needs the second skater for the team event and Adam has the best record apart from Nathan). I cannot in any way justify completely overlooking a skater who placed second at Nationals (and no, 4CC does not count as a plum for the Silver medalist). There were so many scenarios in which Adam could be sent to Olympics but Ross would have been still rewarded for the skate of his life. Between Ross and Vincent one should have gotten Olympics and another one- 4CC and Worlds. Or give Adam only the Olympics and send the podium to Worlds. Anything would have been better than what the Federation did. About three spots- sometimes supporting an athlete who just skated the best skate of his life at Nationals is more important than theoretical three spots. We are all used to sport breaking athletes' hearts, but this incident is too much for my liking.
I studied the criteria. I support considering BOW. But Nationals should weigh much more than anything from last year, and silver medals should be much harder to bump than Bronze.
I find selection like that dispiriting for the athletes and questionable for the fans (at least some fans, like me).
And then there is Grant's non-selection. Which is just as strange. I agree with Mark Mitchell in that if BOW has so much value, there is not much incentive for older skaters who might have an outside shot (last shot) to even train at all.

Well said. I agree with all of it.

Let it be said going in that I like Ross a lot but I'm not President of his fan club by any stretch. I also have had a lot of respect grow in me for Adam in how he has trained, gotten really fit and consistent. Lots of respect there although his programs aren't 9.5 under IJS...but I can leave that out for now.

I watch and opine on this issue from as objective place as I can get.

I knew the nats was soured for me when Hawayek and Baker had an amazing skate. I was just a little happy for them that they had the skate that they wanted, but my uber fandom was reduced to a slow golf clap, knowing that one of the top 3 could fall 4 times and H/B wouldn't be going anywhere regardless. Sucked the fun out of an Olympic nationals for me.

 

[aftershocks]

He won his silver medal; he wasn't competing for 4th place. This was not the "going to the Olympics competition". It was the national championship, and he did get 2nd place in that.

Sure, the only difference that makes though is the feeling Ross felt when he came off the ice having given everything he had and having realized his dream of competing his best at Nationals in an Olympic season. No one can take that away, as Ross said. I'm not sure how Ross actually feels now about the medal itself, which is pretty much a consolation prize at best. He's won the silver medal before at Nationals.

 

[vesperholly]

Well yep, Ashley was always going to be named to the 2010 Olympic team as a back-to-back GPF bronze medalist. Sure it's just like the false narrative that Ross was dumped for Adam, when the point is the committee prefers Vincent over Ross. And if Jason had somehow not made so many mistakes and placed fourth in front of Vincent, and Adam had placed in front of Ross with Ross in third, it's likely that Ross would have been dumped for Jason. No matter what, Ross was the odd guy out. So why wasn't he told he was competing for 4th place at best?!!

Because if the competition ended up Nathan, Adam, Ross, Grant, Tim, Jason, Vincent or something, Ross might well have made the team. If Jason was in 4th behind Ross, it might have been Ross out for Jason. Other people's placements mattered too.

 

[aftershocks]

Because if the competition ended up Nathan, Adam, Ross, Grant, Tim, Jason, Vincent or something, Ross might well have made the team. If Jason was in 4th behind Ross, it might have been Ross out for Jason. Other people's placements mattered too.

Hmmm, I think that's a stretch.

 

[vesperholly]

I knew the nats was soured for me when Hawayek and Baker had an amazing skate. I was just a little happy for them that they had the skate that they wanted, but my uber fandom was reduced to a slow golf clap, knowing that one of the top 3 could fall 4 times and H/B wouldn't be going anywhere regardless. Sucked the fun out of an Olympic nationals for me.

They could go to Worlds if one of the top 3 retire after the Olympics, which is entirely possible.

 

[aftershocks]

....
So Ross vs. Vincent should have been a fairly close decision, EXCEPT that Vincent was the silver medalist last year and not sent to Worlds. Bypassing someone on the podium two years in a row would have looked bad too. And the fact that last year the silver medalist was not given the highest-prestige assignment was a precursor to what happened this time too.

EXCEPT that US fed has never actually worried or apparently given a rat's a** about how bad their decisions might look.

It keeps being stated that Vincent was somehow purposely left off 2017 senior Worlds in favor of Jason. That's simply not true. Mr. Jason Brown placed third and was on the team anyway. Vincent has said himself that he didn't even expect to make the podium at U.S. Nationals last year. Adam was out injured, and Jason competed injured, so that gave Vincent an opportunity he may not otherwise have had as he wasn't flashing 5 attempted quads last year.

The fact that Vincent made the Nationals podium boosted his confidence for junior Worlds, obviously. Some fans have posted here that Vincent did not make the minimums he needed to attend senior Worlds, so that further confirms USFS did not intentionally keep Vincent off the 2017 senior World team. US fed apparently sent Vincent to a senior B in order to try and get the minimums he needed, but it didn't happen. I don't see the big deal about a skater who competed junior and appeared at only his second U.S Nationals as a senior not getting to go to senior Worlds! ETA: It's listed that Vincent was WD at Golden Spin (unclear whether he pulled out in advance for some reason in order to focus on Nationals perhaps). Therefore if that's the case, Vincent not going to senior Worlds was his and his team's choice. He won Junior Worlds unexpectedly. Can we stop with the "Poor Vincent didn't get assigned to 2017 senior Worlds" whining already. So what! He'll be better off appearing at Worlds in 2018 with a full senior season and an Olympic appearance behind him.

I seem to recall that 'unlucky' Nathan Chen didn't get to attend either junior Worlds or senior Worlds in 2016 due to an injury that turned out to be a blessing in disguise for him. He came back the following season throwing quads like nobody's business. #QuadGoals

 

[VGThuy]

Would you have had an issue if Vincent was left off the Olympic team in favor of Adam?