Objectively speaking, who deserved to win the 2018 OGM?

[VGThuy]

I think the issue with Osmond is that even if she had performed every element perfectly, they wouldn’t give it to her. I’m not even talking about the base value backloading that’s objective, but the GOE and PCS that supposedly have objective bulletpoints but we know are used subjectively (I’d argue some of the bullet points are kind of vague or allow subjective interpretation). Imo, Osmond is closer to the skater that I believe IJS should be rewarding but we knew that wasn’t happening. Honestly, the first time I really saw Daleman (live at Skate America 2016) and Osmond, I just wondered why weren’t American coaches teaching that glide and power to US ladies. (Gracie Gold was probably the one from that quad that had it and maybe I saw a little bit of it in inconsistent Karen Chen which is why I latched on to her to the detriment to my nerves and stress). I’m just happy Osmond (and Daleman) were able to make themselves world medalists and Osmond got a world title after Zag (and others) opened the door.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

Medvedeva's program did not build and lacked energy throughout. Her upper body was very sideways a lot of times.

Lacked energy? She was giving me everything and then some! It's hard to build a program that culminates with throwing yourself under a train, but I thought she did it exceptionally well. The middle part is splendid; the footwork sequence felt like she was doing a dance without a partner (which is not easy to pull off). (I'm not sure if this is the sideways skating that you're referring to, because otherwise I don't see it.) Does she have the glide or push off the edge of the other skaters? No. But it never looked like work or labored to me. A lot of people don't like the Eteri School of transitions, but Medvedeva incorporated them as seamlessly as possible. It's hard to remember now, but she was a trend-setter when it came to multiple Tanos in a program. Why? Because it added a feature that compensated for some of the flaws in her jumping technique. That's just smart IMO. She didn't have the posture or rhythm issues that Zagitova often had. I mean, Johnny Weir and the BBC commentators were loving it and shocked that she didn't win.

Evgenia MEDVEDEVA RUS Free Skate 2018 Olympic Games Pyeongchang BBC

Evgenia MEDVEDEVA RUS Free Skate 2018 Olympic Games Pyeongchang BBC

youtu.be

The crowd was audibly confused and disappointed that she didn't win. She was confused she didn't win. I'm confused why she didn't win. Are we all blind Zhenya stans?

 

[honey]

I think the issue with Osmond is that even if she had performed every element perfectly, they wouldn’t give it to her. I’m not even talking about the base value backloading that’s objective, but the GOE and PCS that supposedly have objective bulletpoints but we know are used subjectively (I’d argue some of the bullet points are kind of vague or allow subjective interpretation). Imo, Osmond is closer to the skater that I believe IJS should be rewarding but we knew that wasn’t happening.

DING DING DING DING! Correct. Osmond’s chances to win the Olympics were over before she stepped on the ice. The way PCS and GOE are dolled out depends so much on consistency and score building over the season. If she had laid down 7 triples over and over again all year long, I feel like she would have won decidedly. The fact that she even got as close as she did in the LP is a testament to how good her skating actually was.

Inconsistency impedes PCS and GOE building over the season. And I certainly can’t argue that she gave anybody a consistent season.

 

[Evgeniafan]

Lacked energy? She was giving me everything and then some! It's hard to build a program that culminates with throwing yourself under a train, but I thought she did it exceptionally well. The middle part is splendid; the footwork sequence felt like she was doing a dance without a partner (which is not easy to pull off). (I'm not sure if this is the sideways skating that you're referring to, because otherwise I don't see it.) Does she have the glide or push off the edge of the other skaters? No. But it never looked like work or labored to me. A lot of people don't like the Eteri School of transitions, but Medvedeva incorporated them as seamlessly as possible. It's hard to remember now, but she was a trend-setter when it came to multiple Tanos in a program. Why? Because it added a feature that compensated for some of the flaws in her jumping technique. That's just smart IMO. She didn't have the posture or rhythm issues that Zagitova often had. I mean, Johnny Weir and the BBC commentators were loving it and shocked that she didn't win.

Evgenia MEDVEDEVA RUS Free Skate 2018 Olympic Games Pyeongchang BBC

Evgenia MEDVEDEVA RUS Free Skate 2018 Olympic Games Pyeongchang BBC

youtu.be

The crowd was audibly confused and disappointed that she didn't win. She was confused she didn't win. I'm confused why she didn't win. Are we all blind Zhenya stans?

We are not blind Zhenya stand. The audience says it all, they thought she should have won.

 

[bardtoob]

DING DING DING DING! Correct. Osmond’s chances to win the Olympics were over before she stepped on the ice.

Right!?!

 

[Coco]

64 people have voted in this poll so far, one more than we need for 7 groups of nine. Depending on the make up of each panel, I wonder how many panels would vote for Med and how many for Zag if we just did a basic 1-2 ordinal ranking for them.

It was my understanding there would be no math in this debate.

Love, President Jerry Ford

 

[Lamente Ariane]

I think the issue with Osmond is that even if she had performed every element perfectly, they wouldn’t give it to her. I’m not even talking about the base value backloading that’s objective, but the GOE and PCS that supposedly have objective bulletpoints but we know are used subjectively (I’d argue some of the bullet points are kind of vague or allow subjective interpretation). Imo, Osmond is closer to the skater that I believe IJS should be rewarding but we knew that wasn’t happening. Honestly, the first time I really saw Daleman (live at Skate America 2016) and Osmond, I just wondered why weren’t American coaches teaching that glide and power to US ladies. (Gracie Gold was probably the one from that quad that had it and maybe I saw a little bit of it in inconsistent Karen Chen which is why I latched on to her to the detriment to my nerves and stress). I’m just happy Osmond (and Daleman) were able to make themselves world medalists and Osmond got a world title after Zag (and others) opened the door.

This was by far my least favorite thing about the ladies discipline that quad. If Evgenia Medvedeva entered an event, she was going to win it, period, even on the rare occasions when she made a mistake (Rostelecom 2017 springs to mind) because the judges were loading her up with so much GOE on every element and a massive PCS cushion which I personally never understood. I was glad when Alina Zagitova came on the scene because it finally felt like a competition for more than silver and bronze.

I was also really put off by the way some (some! not all!) fans acted like Evgenia had been denied "her" OGM, as if dominating for two years meant she had more of a right to it than Zagitova. The Olympics doesn't care how many competitions you've won before, sorry. Just ask Patrick Chan.

 

[Coco]

I'm just curious if anyone has done a detailed frame by frame breakdown of these programs, counting crossovers, identifying steps, etc.

As a long time fan of the sport, I should be able to do this myself, but I have never learned all the various steps. Jumps are a lot easier to identify.

 

[muffinplus]

It's absolutely crazy that the 2018 Olympics was only 2 years ago. Truly feels like another era of ladies skating.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

This was by far my least favorite thing about the ladies discipline that quad. If Evgenia Medvedeva entered an event, she was going to win it, period, even on the rare occasions when she made a mistake (Rostelecom 2017 springs to mind) because the judges were loading her up with so much GOE on every element and a massive PCS cushion which I personally never understood. I was glad when Alina Zagitova came on the scene because it finally felt like a competition for more than silver and bronze.

I was also really put off by the way some (some! not all!) fans acted like Evgenia had been denied "her" OGM, as if dominating for two years meant she had more of a right to it than Zagitova. The Olympics doesn't care how many competitions you've won before, sorry. Just ask Patrick Chan.

When did Patrick Chan skate 2 clean programs at the Olympics though?

I do think your post does a good job of articulating a common sentiment I'm sensing. Some (many?) fans felt some type of way about Zhenya dominating for as long as she did, for a myriad of reasons, and it's human behavior to feel happy or somewhat vindicated that she didn't win in PyeongChang (even if it's a subconscious thing), because of all the times one feels she undeservedly won and/or was overscored in the past.

I don't feel she was entitled to be awarded the gold medal based solely on her previous track record. But she did skate two clean programs, and had the best long program (in my opinion). I think she earned that gold medal with her Anna Karenina masterpiece.

 

[muffinplus]

Well she did tie in the score with Zagitova in her long program. They already gave her higher PCS...the problem is Zagitova having a lutz-loop combo in the short was going to give her that edge

 

[Lamente Ariane]

When did Patrick Chan skate 2 clean programs at the Olympics though?

I do think your post does a good job of articulating a common sentiment I'm sensing. Some (many?) fans felt some type of way about Zhenya dominating for as long as she did, for a myriad of reasons, and it's human behavior to feel happy or somewhat vindicated that she didn't win in PyeongChang (even if it's a subconscious thing), because of all the times one feels she won and/or was overscored in the past.

I don't feel she was entitled to be awarded the gold medal based solely on her previous track record. But she did skate two clean programs, and had the best long program (in my opinion). I think she earned that gold medal with her Anna Karenina masterpiece.

I was mostly using Patrick as an example of things not being preordained, but if you want an example of two clean programs at the Olympics netting you silver, there's always Michelle Kwan in Nagano. Who was also beat by her younger countrywoman with higher tech content. Of course, that's been controversial since the moment it happened...

It's completely fair that you feel Evgenia skated better! But it's also fair that many people feel Alina skated better... and some of us preferred Kaetlyn and/or Satoko But I think when it comes down to "objectivity", as much as any of us are capable of it, Alina undeniably managed a technical feat no one else at that particular event even attempted. That shouldn't have affected all her PCS marks, it's true but in many ways Alina beat Evgenia at her own game.

 

[bardtoob]

...if you want an example of two clean programs at the Olympics netting you silver, there's always Michelle Kwan in Nagano. Who was also beat by her younger countrywoman with higher tech content. Of course, that's been controversial since the moment it happened...

Some would say it is virtually the same situation.

 

[jenny12]

Lacked energy? She was giving me everything and then some! It's hard to build a program that culminates with throwing yourself under a train, but I thought she did it exceptionally well. The middle part is splendid; the footwork sequence felt like she was doing a dance without a partner (which is not easy to pull off). (I'm not sure if this is the sideways skating that you're referring to, because otherwise I don't see it.) Does she have the glide or push off the edge of the other skaters? No. But it never looked like work or labored to me. A lot of people don't like the Eteri School of transitions, but Medvedeva incorporated them as seamlessly as possible. It's hard to remember now, but she was a trend-setter when it came to multiple Tanos in a program. Why? Because it added a feature that compensated for some of the flaws in her jumping technique. That's just smart IMO. She didn't have the posture or rhythm issues that Zagitova often had. I mean, Johnny Weir and the BBC commentators were loving it and shocked that she didn't win.

I thought Evgenia lacked energy in terms of her skating. All her energy went toward facial expression but if you look past that, there wasn’t much there. The footwork did look labored to me because I could feel everything be pushed off of instead of there being a natural flow of edge. Without anything special about her jump technique or skating skills, there wasn’t much justification to put her above Zagitova who certainly milked the system for all it was worth but did enough of what counted better than Medvedeva. Medvedeva’s strengths at the Olympics were all smoke and mirrors. I mean the judges still kind of fell for it considering how high her score was. Medvedeva definitely was not robbed in 2018. If anything, she was given a gift. Considering her limitations as a skater, she’s very lucky to be an Olympic silver medalist.

 

[muffinplus]

Skating skills is just one aspect of PCS I am also going to disagree that Medvedeva's performance was all in the face, she definitely used her body to project...

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

Well she did tie in the score with Zagitova in her long program. They already gave her higher PCS...the problem is Zagitova having a lutz-loop combo in the short was going to give her that edge

I think the PCS edge Medvedeva had over Zagitova should have more than made up for any base mark advantage Alina had in both programs.

The real issue is the inflation of Zagitova's PCS that season:

2017 Cup of China 68.35
2017 GPF 70.42
2018 Europeans 75.30
2018 Olympics 75.03

Interesting that it is slightly lower at the Olympics than Euros, but by then they were way too high and it was way too late.

Now let's compare Medvedeva's PCS trajectory in her senior debut season:

2015 Skate America 67.16
2015 GPF 72.37
2016 Euros 70.50
2016 Worlds 72.34

Her 2016 Worlds LP was by far the best she skated it that season. The last 3 PCS are at a level Zagitova never reached IMO.

Evgenia MEDVEDEVA - 2016 World Championships - LP (BBC)

Evgenia MEDVEDEVA - 2016 World Championships - LP (BBC)

youtu.be

I mean, it's clear as mud. To me, anyway.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

Medvedeva's strengths at the Olympics were all smoke and mirrors. I mean the judges still kind of fell for it considering how high her score was. Medvedeva definitely was not robbed in 2018. If anything, she was given a gift. Considering her limitations as a skater, she’s very lucky to be an Olympic silver medalist.

So the judges fell for it. The crowd fell for it. The commentators (many of them former high-level skaters) fell for it. But not the wise, sage FSU posters. Got it. Was that crack smoke with those mirrors? Must have been some potent stuff.

 

[tony]

So the judges fell for it. The crowd fell for it. The commentators (many of them former high-level skaters) fell for it. But not the wise, sage FSU posters. Got it. Was that crack smoke with those mirrors? Must have been some potent stuff.

The judges tied them. The commentators were split just as we are (listen to Johnny and Tara, for example). Much of the crowd was delighted with a Zagitova win. You're trying to say only the FSU posters agree with Alina winning? I mean, who has the gold medal again?

I don't have access to archives but I remember I wrote a long list of things regarding Medvedeva's technical issues in the ladies LP thread from the Olympics. She was muscling through almost everything, and while she landed it all, there was just not that ease and spring that Zagitova had. And I'm going to repeat myself that I think most people don't get how 'on' with timing Alina had to be if the program was going to be dynamic- yet she did it repeatedly.

You did ask for an objective discussion and I guess it isn't going the way you hoped?

 

[VGThuy]

So now the judges' decisions should never be questioned and are totally right. Then we don't need this thread. Under their decision, Zagitova won. Case closed.

 

[jenny12]

So the judges fell for it. The crowd fell for it. The commentators (many of them former high-level skaters) fell for it. But not the wise, sage FSU posters. Got it. Was that crack smoke with those mirrors? Must have been some potent stuff.

The judges inflating marks of certain skatings over others isn’t anything new. There’s also no evidence the crowd thought Medvedeva was robbed and the commentators have always been pro Medvedeva (especially Johnny) without being willing to call out her real flaws. Just zoom in on Medvedeva’s blades when she skates, look at her lack of knee bend and slo-mo her jumps and if you look at those things without fan colored glasses, you will see the truth. Also, you bringing up the judges to defend Medvedeva when the point of your post was to question the judges’ decision is very cute.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

The judges tied them. The commentators were split just as we are (listen to Johnny and Tara, for example). Much of the crowd was delighted with a Zagitova win. You're trying to say only the FSU posters agree with Alina winning? I mean, who has the gold medal again?

I don't have access to archives but I remember I wrote a long list of things regarding Medvedeva's technical issues in the ladies LP thread from the Olympics. She was muscling through almost everything, and while she landed it all, there was just not that ease and spring that Zagitova had. And I'm going to repeat myself that I think most people don't get how 'on' with timing Alina had to be if the program was going to be dynamic- yet she did it repeatedly.

You did ask for an objective discussion and I guess it isn't going the way you hoped?

Much of the crowd? So the ones that weren't audibly heard baffled and confused that Medvedeva didn't win? Maybe my hearing isn't the best, but it sounded like more were dissatisfied than delighted. Also, not just Johnny and Tara. Listen to the BBC. They were downright DUMBFOUNDED.

I have no arguments with the TES. I'd be FAR more interested in your breakdown of the PCS of Medvedeva and Zagitova. And also your thoughts regarding the escalation of Zagitova's PCS throughout the season that I referenced in the post before you quoted. That's the crux of the issue I have with the judging.

How do you explain that Zagitova arguably skated that program better at Cup of China, yet her PCS were 7-8 points lower?

And I honestly didn't know what to expect when I created this poll, but it has been incredibly enlightening and helpful for my video.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

The judges inflating marks of certain skatings over others isn’t anything new. There’s also no evidence the crowd thought Medvedeva was robbed and the commentators have always been pro Medvedeva (especially Johnny) without being willing to call out her real flaws. Just zoom in on Medvedeva’s blades when she skates, look at her lack of knee bend and slo-mo her jumps and if you look at those things without fan colored glasses, you will see the truth. Also, you bringing up the judges to defend Medvedeva when the point of your post was to question the judges’ decision is very cute.

No, I'm providing a rebuttal to YOUR post about the judges gifting Medvedeva and saying she was lucky to finish second. That's kind of how debating works.

This isn't about her jumps or skating skills. It's about the 4 other components (especially Performance, Composition, and Interpretation) relative to Zagitova.

And you can hear the crowd's disappointment clear as day in the NBC video of Medvedeva.

 

[VGThuy]

If we're talking "objectively speaking" why bring the crowd into this at all?

 

[jenny12]

No, I'm replying to YOUR post about the judges gifting Medvedeva and saying she was lucky to finish second. That's kind of how debating works.

This isn't about her jumps or skating skills. It's about the 4 other components (especially Performance, Composition, and Interpretation) relative to Zagitova.

None of those things were superior enough to Zagitova to justify a Medvedeva win considering her severe issues in the other parts of her skating. Her performance was was not cohesive, the program was poorly constructed, and her interpretation was glorified pantomime.

Without some kind of poll over the audience, there is no way to assume they are disappointed. Also, crowd reaction is definitely not part of PCS.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

If we're talking "objectively speaking" why bring the crowd into this at all?

Because I stupidly thought there any kind of substantive objectivity in evaluating figure skating performances. That's why I included "objectively", but I should have left it out. I feel like my posts have been objective. I have no problems or qualms pointing out issues and deficiencies in Medvedeva's skating. I don't pretend like she's Patrick Chan or anything. I should have re-worded the initial question and post better, and that's my fault.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

None of those things were superior enough to Zagitova to justify a Medvedeva win considering her severe issues in the other parts of her skating. Her performance was was not cohesive, the program was poorly constructed, and her interpretation was glorified pantomime.

Without some kind of poll over the audience, there is no way to assume they are disappointed. Also, crowd reaction is definitely not part of PCS.

This is why I included objective in the title. Because I feel like you're not trying to be objective AT ALL. Also, how do you describe Alina's components? What specific marks would you give Zagitova and Medvedeva for PCS? I am insanely curious.

 

[jenny12]

This is why I included objective in the title. Because I feel like you're not trying to be objective AT ALL. Also, how do you describe Alina's components? What specific marks would you give Zagitova and Medvedeva for PCS? I am insanely curious.

I don’t see how I’m not objective but you are. You are clearly a fan of Medvedeva so that’s not objective either since you are looking for responses that support your perspective. Anyway, there’s no such thing as pure objectivity in figure skating.

So, in my opinion, neither Medvedeva or Zagitova would deserve anything more than an 8.25 in any PCS category and that’s being generous.

 

[binbinwinwin]

I like to call Medvedeva's skating full body skating, it's very muscled and she throws her body into her turns and uses her leg swinging to get herself on a lean into those edges. Neither her nor Alina have that rhythmic knee action where the hips, knees ankle and feet work together to generate glide and speed while performing upper body movements that shift your weight back and forth. Plus they don't have the posture, dance line or tension in their limbs. Sure their programs may have been heavily backloaded (Alina's moreso) than Kaetlyn's but I feel like people underestimate how difficult it is to skate a program upright while hitting strong positions and finishing those movements.

Alina's PCS rose sharply over the season but I don't think it's anything we haven't seen before. It's not that Alina is bad, but I never thought of Medvedeva as especially outstanding to begin with, they're about the same for me PCS wise but I found how Alina's backloaded her jumps and landing them on the music appropriate and exciting for an Olympic program. Unpopular opinion but I liked The Leftovers program more for Medvedeva than Anna Karenina. Her Anna Karenina was too immature and a bit childlike. Bobrova/Soloviev were a polarizing team for me artistically but I think their Anna Karenina FD was fabulous.

 

[muffinplus]

I like to call Medvedeva's skating full body skating, it's very muscled and she throws her body into her turns and uses her leg swinging to get herself on a lean into those edges. Neither her nor Alina have that rhythmic knee action where the hips, knees ankle and feet work together to generate glide and speed while performing upper body movements that shift your weight back and forth. Plus they don't have the posture, dance line or tension in their limbs. Sure their programs may have been heavily backloaded (Alina's moreso) than Kaetlyn's but I feel like people underestimate how difficult it is to skate a program upright while hitting strong positions and finishing those movements.

This is all skating skills. Why are people always placing so much emphasis on one part of program components ?

I do agree where the muscling makes a difference is in the tech, as her jumps didn't look effortless at all... those GOEs were too high.

 

[VGThuy]

Skating skills affect the rest of the PCS too. It leads to everything and it affects everything. And figure skating is all about skating skills on top of the elements (which are again affected by one's skating skills).