Objectively speaking, who deserved to win the 2018 OGM?

[muffinplus]

Skating skills affect the rest of the PCS too. It leads to everything and it affects everything. And figure skating is all about skating skills on top of the elements (which are again affected by one's skating skills).

They are 20% of the PCS. I don't really get your point TBH. What do they have to do with the performance, interpretation and transitions categories. You can have not the best skating skills and still excel in the other categories.

 

[tony]

@Sasha is DIVINE - you're looking at what you want to see. While we can all agree that PCS fluctuation is sometimes weird, it's no secret that there are personal bests being shattered left and right by the time Euros, 4CC, the Olympics, and Worlds come around. Did you have a meltdown over P/C and their rise throughout the 2015 season? Or pick someone/team else, perhaps that you liked, and ask yourself if you were that mad over their own PCS rise. What I'm more curious about is where exactly you thought Alina was given so much benefit in comparison to Evgenia.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

I don’t see how I’m not objective but you are. You are clearly a fan of Medvedeva so that’s not objective either since you are looking for responses that support your perspective. Anyway, there’s no such thing as pure objectivity in figure skating.

So, I’m my opinion, neither Medvedeva or Zagitova would deserve anything more than an 8.25 in any PCS category and that’s being generous.

You do realize being so vague isn't helpful, right?

But you were quite specific when it came to smoke and mirrors, lacking energy, gifted silver, poorly constructed programs, and glorified pantomime.

 

[tony]

I'm pulling this directly from the Olympic thread and I still believe every word of what I wrote:

Medvedeva's Lutz - straight +2 and +3 for the obvious Flutz.
3F+3T jerky, 3S+3T jerky --- almost all +2 and some +3
2A+2T+2Lo, second 2A - some +2 and even a few +3

Sorry, she's fantastic, but these were already huge stretches.

Zagitova on the other hand got mostly 0 and +1 for that first Lutz. I don't see how it's any different in quality than any Axel Medvedeva has ever done, and it takes off on a much better edge than her counterpart.

Oh, and for good measure:
Both Osmond and Medvedeva got the same exact GOE for their solo 2As. Osmond's 3S+2T+2Lo - all huge jumps-- several +1's.
And the best part is that Osmond got a ! call, which I don't disagree with, but Medvedeva did not. Trust me, that's unexplainable.

So, if we want to talk about nonsense, I'd start with the +3's for those technical elements.

 

[VGThuy]

They are 20% of the PCS. I don't really get your point TBH. What do they have to do with the performance, interpretation and transitions categories. You can have not the best skating skills and still excel in the other categories.

Skating skills is the lead PCS and many ways in which the other PCS are scored require good to excellent skating skills. Read the definitions of each category. It’s hard to have good composition if you don’t have the skills to execute the better choreography, it’s hard to have good carriage if your skating is more muscled, etc.

 

[binbinwinwin]

This is all skating skills. Why are people always placing so much emphasis on one part of program components ?

I do agree where the muscling makes a difference is in the tech, as her jumps didn't look effortless at all... those GOEs were too high.

How is it all skating skills? The quality and continuity of what they do with their feet and body have to do with Transitions and the pattern they create on the ice and use of space has to do with Composition. I'm going off this chart here. You also left out the second half of my post there but according to the chart again, I felt Alina had a better constructed program because of the way her jumps were backloaded and timed made it exciting (Interpretation, Composition and Performance) while Medevdeva's Anna Karenina was underwhelming to me as program (Performance and Composition). To be honest that chart does also have a lot of overlap so I can get some people getting confused but skating skills are the basis/bones of this sport so there's always going to be an emphasis on them.

 

[jenny12]

You do realize being so vague isn't helpful, right?

But you were quite specific when it came to smoke and mirrors, lacking energy, gifted silver, poorly constructed programs, and glorified pantomime.

If you think I’m being vague so be it. However, at the end of the day, nothing will change the fact that she had no depth of edge or flow, pedestrian timing, meaningless transitions, emotion that was not appropriate to Anna Karenina, and poor performance of her elements since the positions had poor body alignment and were not held in a meaningful way. Medvedeva got the silver medal which her fans should be happy with.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

@Sasha is DIVINE - you're looking at what you want to see. While we can all agree that PCS fluctuation is sometimes weird, it's no secret that there are personal bests being shattered left and right by the time Euros, 4CC, the Olympics, and Worlds come around. Did you have a meltdown over P/C and their rise throughout the 2015 season? Or pick someone/team else, perhaps that you liked, and ask yourself if you were that mad over their own PCS rise.

No as I felt P/C were the best team? I haven't looked at the disparity of their PCS throughout the season, but I have no problem with how they were ranked. We all look at what we want to see. I mean, I don't mind doing research, but I imagine I'd be hard-pressed to find anyone with quite the PCS inflation that Zagitova experienced that season. And there are reasons for that, which I will be discussing at length of course, but that doesn't mean that it's right. It's also why I included Medvedeva's PCS scores during her first senior season (under similar circumstances as Zagitova--entering senior ranks as Jr. GPF and World Champion) for comparison. You can't just hand-wave it away as "personal bests being shattered left and right by the end of the season". I feel this was a specific instance of one skater (Zagitova) having her PCS erroneously inflated. This is why I'm curious if you feel that (like other posters) Medvedeva and Zagitova were roughly equal components-wise at the 2018 Olympics.

What I'm more curious about is where exactly you thought Alina was given so much benefit in comparison to Evgenia.

PCS, specifically Interpretation, Composition, and Presentation. The fact that Zagitova's program was 100% backloaded means by definition it is not well-constructed or composed IMO. (I'm not sure if jumps are considered "movements" based on the chart posted above.) She is rewarded for that in bonus, but it definitely should affect her Composition score.

However, we all know that PCS are not evaluated individually and are considered a package deal. So I feel that had Zagitova's PCS not been so unfairly inflated and marked more correctly (maybe in the 72 area max--which allows for inflation from GPF, but not to an egregious extent), Medvedeva wins the gold. That also accounts for the GOE people want to take away from Medvedeva for her egregiously horrendously flawed jumps.

But if you think Zagitova and Medvedeva's PCS were more or less equal, then none of what I'm arguing is really of consequence.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

I'm pulling this directly from the Olympic thread and I still believe every word of what I wrote:

Medvedeva's Lutz - straight +2 and +3 for the obvious Flutz.
3F+3T jerky, 3S+3T jerky --- almost all +2 and some +3
2A+2T+2Lo, second 2A - some +2 and even a few +3

Sorry, she's fantastic, but these were already huge stretches.

Zagitova on the other hand got mostly 0 and +1 for that first Lutz. I don't see how it's any different in quality than any Axel Medvedeva has ever done, and it takes off on a much better edge than her counterpart.

Oh, and for good measure:
Both Osmond and Medvedeva got the same exact GOE for their solo 2As. Osmond's 3S+2T+2Lo - all huge jumps-- several +1's.
And the best part is that Osmond got a ! call, which I don't disagree with, but Medvedeva did not. Trust me, that's unexplainable.


So, if we want to talk about nonsense, I'd start with the +3's for those technical elements.

Zagitova was clearly off on her landing of the first lutz, hence her not being able to put the planned loop after it. That jump incurring deductions is not off base to me.

I never thought Medvedeva's lutz was egregious as some. She at least attempted an outside edge preceding it, and the take-off edge looks unclear to me. I don't think she got called for it but it looks like a ! to me. The 3S+3T was perfect to me. What jerkiness are you referring to? The inherent flaw in her technique, or a jerkiness on the landing? I agree that the first flip was off, but I thought all her other jumps in the program were great (in terms of not having landing deductions).

Thank you so much for posting those GOEs though. They provide a lot of evidence to support my theory as to what went down.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

If you think I’m being vague so be it. However, at the end of the day, nothing will change the fact that she had no depth of edge or flow, pedestrian timing, meaningless transitions, emotion that was not appropriate to Anna Karenina, and poor performance of her elements since the positions had poor body alignment and were not held in a meaningful way. Medvedeva got the silver medal which her fans should be happy with.

I'm overjoyed, can't you tell?

 

[tony]

No as I felt P/C were the best team? I haven't looked at the disparity of their PCS throughout the season, but I have no problem with how they were ranked. We all look at what we want to see. I mean, I don't mind doing research, but I imagine I'd be hard-pressed to find anyone with quite the PCS inflation that Zagitova experienced that season. And there are reasons for that, which I will be discussing at length of course, but that doesn't mean that it's right. It's also why I included Medvedeva's PCS scores during her first senior season (under similar circumstances as Zagitova--entering senior ranks as Jr. GPF and World Champion) for comparison. You can't just hand-wave it away as "personal bests being shattered left and right by the end of the season". I feel this was a specific instance of one skater (Zagitova) having her PCS erroneously inflated. This is why I'm curious if you feel that (like other posters) Medvedeva and Zagitova were roughly equal components-wise at the 2018 Olympics.

And there we have it. You don't see the problem in P/C's rise because you thought they were the best.

For what it's worth, (FD talk) they scored 98.00 points at Cup of China early-season, with 49.86 PCS points. By Worlds, they were at 112.34 with 56.71 PCS.

PCS, specifically Interpretation, Composition, and Presentation. The fact that Zagitova's program was 100% backloaded means by definition it is not well-constructed or composed IMO. (I'm not sure if jumps are considered "movements" based on the chart posted above.) She is rewarded for that in bonus, but it definitely should affect her Composition score.

I mean if it makes sense musically, then how can you even argue that point? Do you want every skater to do 3 jumping passes, a spin, 4 more jumping passes, footwork, and 2 more spins?

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

And there we have it. You don't see the problem in P/C's rise because you thought they were the best.

For what it's worth, (FD talk) they scored 98.00 points at Cup of China early-season, with 49.86 PCS points. By Worlds, they were at 112.34 with 56.71 PCS.



I mean if it makes sense musically, then how can you even argue that point? Do you want every skater to do 3 jumping passes, a spin, 4 more jumping passes, footwork, and 2 more spins?

Will you be answering my questions at a later date, or am I just SOL?

You can argue that a lot of things can make sense musically. But I think a well-composed program should ideally have jumps throughout, not just in the back half.

Also, regarding P/C, who is arguing that their PCS were inflated or undeserved? Many people think the opposite in regards to Zagitova.

 

[tony]

Will you be answering my questions at a later date, or am I just SOL?

You can argue that a lot of things can make sense musically. But I think a well-composed program should ideally have jumps throughout, not just in the back half.

I’ve already said that I’m completely blown away how exact Zagitova was in the program as far as the timing. I don’t find her quite as robotic in movement compared to Medvedeva but both had/have it. I was only ever bothered by Zagitova’s posture in the step sequences, because she was sometimes hunched awkwardly, but Zagitova skated with much more power. I found jerkiness to almost everything Evgenia did. I found the set-up time and the transitions between the elements to make more sense in Zagitova’s program. I thought the overall cleanliness and performance level was better for Alina as well. Are you satisfied?

Nice avoidance on discussing P/C having a huge rise- I did starting the research for you.

 

[muffinplus]

Skating skills is the lead PCS and many ways in which the other PCS are scored require good to excellent skating skills. Read the definitions of each category. It’s hard to have good composition if you don’t have the skills to execute the better choreography, it’s hard to have good carriage if your skating is more muscled, etc.

I have. There is literally one or two things that may be related to skating skills, but they are not conflated together.

In composition, Purpose, originality, phrase and form have nothing to do with skating skills.

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq/17596-program-component-chart-id-sp-2019-20/file

IJS Program Component Marks

IJS Program Component Marks

iceskatingresources.org

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

I’ve already said that I’m completely blown away how exact Zagitova was in the program as far as the timing. I don’t find her quite as robotic in movement compared to Medvedeva but both had/have it. I was only ever bothered by Zagitova’s posture in the step sequences, because she was sometimes hunched awkwardly, but Zagitova skated with much more power. I found jerkiness to almost everything Evgenia did. I found the set-up time and the transitions between the elements to make more sense in Zagitova’s program. I thought the overall cleanliness and performance level was better for Alina as well. Are you satisfied?

Nice avoidance on discussing P/C having a huge rise- I did starting the research for you.

Sorry, I have a bad habit of editing to add to my posts. I added this:

Also, regarding P/C, who is arguing that their PCS were inflated or undeserved? Many people think the opposite in regards to Zagitova.

@Tony Wheeler (tagging you cause I'm editing this in as well), your point is taken. Of course, there were very special circumstances regarding P/C and how they were suddenly promoted in dance. In that case, one could argue that TPTB were doing the right thing for once, and justly putting a team where they deserved to be, instead of making them wait for years. The case of Zagitova is completely different. She was the reigning Junior World CHAMPION. Not only that, she had used the identical program the season before. The judges should have been quite familiar with her and her skating coming into the 2017-18 season. I don't think a similar PCS rise was justified. I haven't gone back and re-watched her World Junior winning program, but I doubt much changed between it and PyeongChang except for the extra 30 seconds or whatever.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

I’ve already said that I’m completely blown away how exact Zagitova was in the program as far as the timing. I don’t find her quite as robotic in movement compared to Medvedeva but both had/have it. I was only ever bothered by Zagitova’s posture in the step sequences, because she was sometimes hunched awkwardly, but Zagitova skated with much more power. I found jerkiness to almost everything Evgenia did. I found the set-up time and the transitions between the elements to make more sense in Zagitova’s program. I thought the overall cleanliness and performance level was better for Alina as well. Are you satisfied?

Nice avoidance on discussing P/C having a huge rise- I did starting the research for you.

So, in other words, yes you think they were the same PCS wise? Or actually, Alina had better PCS? It's hard to tell exactly what you're saying.

 

[Evgeniafan]

I'm overjoyed, can't you tell?

Evgenia should have won gold.

 

[VGThuy]

I have. There is literally one or two things that may be related to skating skills, but they are not conflated together.

In composition, Purpose, originality, phrase and form have nothing to do with skating skills.

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq/17596-program-component-chart-id-sp-2019-20/file

IJS Program Component Marks

IJS Program Component Marks

iceskatingresources.org

You're being obtuse because I am sure you're not a new fan who doesn't know how PCS is typically scored. If not, I'm going to treat you like a new fan who is unfamiliar with the way PCS is scored. Other people have explained it well, and I've already explained it.

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq/17596-program-component-chart-id-sp-2019-20/file

"Transitions: The varied and purposeful use of intricate footwork, positions, movements and holds that link all elements. Continuity of movements from one element to another; Variety (including variety of holds in Ice Dance); Difficulty; Quality.

Performance: Involvement of the Skater/Pair/Couple physically, emotionally and intellectually as they deliver the intent of the music and composition. Physical, emotional, intellectual involvement; Projection; Carriage & Clarity of movement; Variety and contrast of movements and energy; Individuality/Personality.

Composition: An intentionally developed and/or original arrangement of all types of movements according to the principles of musical phrase, space, pattern, and structure: Purpose; pattern/ice coverage; multidimensional use of space/design of movement; Phrase and form (movements & parts of the program to match the musical phrasing); Originality of the composition.

Interpretation: The personal, creative, and genuine translation of the rhythm, character and content of music to movement on ice. Movement and steps in time to the music (Timing); Expression of the music’s character/feeling and rhythm, when clearly identifiable; Use of finesse to reflect the details and nuances of the music"

Things I put on bold I believe are things that are affected by a skater's skating skills. I am sure there are more but I'm just putting the least amount for your benefit. What skaters are doing are using their blades to skate on the ice. They are moving across the rink in order to perform, show off how their programs are composed, and interpreting the character/music. It is pretty common knowledge that skating skills are the lead-off PCS that pretty creates the corridor in which every other PCS can be scored.

Transitions is almost entirely dependent on skating skills. I wonder bother explaining how to you as it's clear in the definition. A skater with excellent skatings skills is able to truly perform with carriage & clarity, and have the ability to physically and emotionally and intellectually move without wasting or exerting energy doing it laboriously (which shows). Skaters with excellent skating skills are able to more effortlessly move and step in time to the music and skate with finesse and show off the nuances of the music. In terms of composition, a more difficult/complex program could be performed better with skaters with higher skating skills than those with less. Skaters with excellent skating skills are able to move multi-dimensionally across the ice, have complex and difficult patterns, show off real ice coverage (without humping one's back or laboriously trying to gain speed while their body lets go of the posture and carriage and clarity of movement.

Basically, skaters with less skating skills would have a much harder time keeping up with these demands while trying to execute their TES elements. It clearly shows with the lesser ranked skaters who have lower skating skills. They can't perform up to the level of the ones with higher skating skills even though they may have performance ability (we've seen countless examples of performers who may not have the same blade quality seeming to be limited in how high their PCS in the later categories go).

A few insiders, some of whom who were judges, who have posted mentioned in the past when they changed the "order" of PCS where skating skills wasn't the lead PCS category and they have mentioned how it does change what is emphasized in some way. Clearly, the ISU chose skating skills to be the lead PCS to set up the corridor for a reason. Plus, it just makes sense. This is figure skating, everything a skater does is affected by their ability to move that blade across the ice and how they do it. Everything else follows. Otherwise, we'd be allowing skaters to just pose and stand on two feet "interpreting" for 4 minutes outside of performing elements.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

Reading this circular discussion has persuaded me to partake in 'day drinking'.

-BB

 

[muffinplus]

Deleted

 

[muffinplus]

You're being obtuse because I am sure you're not a new fan who doesn't know how PCS is typically scored. If not, I'm going to treat you like a new fan who is unfamiliar with the way PCS is scored. Other people have explained it well, and I've already explained it.

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq/17596-program-component-chart-id-sp-2019-20/file

"Transitions: The varied and purposeful use of intricate footwork, positions, movements and holds that link all elements. Continuity of movements from one element to another; Variety (including variety of holds in Ice Dance); Difficulty; Quality.

Performance: Involvement of the Skater/Pair/Couple physically, emotionally and intellectually as they deliver the intent of the music and composition. Physical, emotional, intellectual involvement; Projection; Carriage & Clarity of movement; Variety and contrast of movements and energy; Individuality/Personality.

Composition: An intentionally developed and/or original arrangement of all types of movements according to the principles of musical phrase, space, pattern, and structure: Purpose; pattern/ice coverage; multidimensional use of space/design of movement; Phrase and form (movements & parts of the program to match the musical phrasing); Originality of the composition.

Interpretation: The personal, creative, and genuine translation of the rhythm, character and content of music to movement on ice. Movement and steps in time to the music (Timing); Expression of the music’s character/feeling and rhythm, when clearly identifiable; Use of finesse to reflect the details and nuances of the music"

Things I put on bold I believe are things that are affected by a skater's skating skills. I am sure there are more but I'm just putting the least amount for your benefit. What skaters are doing are using their blades to skate on the ice. They are moving across the rink in order to perform, show off how their programs are composed, and interpreting the character/music. It is pretty common knowledge that skating skills are the lead-off PCS that pretty creates the corridor in which every other PCS can be scored.

Transitions is almost entirely dependent on skating skills. I wonder bother explaining how to you as it's clear in the definition. A skater with excellent skatings skills is able to truly perform with carriage & clarity, and have the ability to physically and emotionally and intellectually move without wasting or exerting energy doing it laboriously (which shows). Skaters with excellent skating skills are able to more effortlessly move and step in time to the music and skate with finesse and show off the nuances of the music. In terms of composition, a more difficult/complex program could be performed better with skaters with higher skating skills than those with less. Skaters with excellent skating skills are able to move multi-dimensionally across the ice, have complex and difficult patterns, show off real ice coverage (without humping one's back or laboriously trying to gain speed while their body lets go of the posture and carriage and clarity of movement.

Basically, skaters with less skating skills would have a much harder time keeping up with these demands while trying to execute their TES elements. It clearly shows with the lesser ranked skaters who have lower skating skills. They can't perform up to the level of the ones with higher skating skills even though they may have performance ability (we've seen countless examples of performers who may not have the same blade quality seeming to be limited in how high their PCS in the later categories go).

A few insiders, some of whom who were judges, who have posted mentioned in the past when they changed the "order" of PCS where skating skills wasn't the lead PCS category and they have mentioned how it does change what is emphasized in some way. Clearly, the ISU chose skating skills to be the lead PCS to set up the corridor for a reason. Plus, it just makes sense. This is figure skating, everything a skater does is affected by their ability to move that blade across the ice and how they do it. Everything else follows. Otherwise, we'd be allowing skaters to just pose and stand on two feet "interpreting" for 4 minutes outside of performing elements.

I don't really have time to respond to every point in this post right now, but transitions is not entirely dependent on general skating skills. This is nonsense. Obviously you have to have decent skating skills to be able to do hard transitions. However, transitions are not skating skills. I.e. Tutberidze girls are known for doing hard transitions, but they are not all masters of skating skills. Zagitova is known for extremely difficult transitions and scores accordingly. Her not having the best overall skating skills has NOTHING to do with this.

Shcherbakova is another one who may not have the best skating skills, but she should be getting very high scores in performance and interpretation, and, again her skating skills shouldn't affect this mark. Kostornaia's skating skills are better, but that doesn't mean she should always have a higher mark in the performance category as a result.

 

[muffinplus]

Reading this circular discussion has persuaded me to partake in 'day drinking'.

-BB

Excuses excuses

 

[quartz]

Reading this circular discussion has persuaded me to partake in 'day drinking'.

-BB

And upgrade your smoking product.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

Reading this circular discussion has persuaded me to partake in 'day drinking'.

-BB

‘Atta girl. Meme Generator

‘Atta girl.

makeameme.org

Make sure you hook up with ANL.

 

[VGThuy]

I don't really have time to respond to every point in this post right now, but transitions is not entirely dependent on general skating skills. This is nonsense. Obviously you have to have decent skating skills to be able to do hard transitions. However, transitions are not skating skills. I.e. Tutberidze girls are known for doing hard transitions, but they are not all masters of skating skills. Zagitova is known for extremely difficult transitions and scores accordingly. Her not having the best overall skating skills has NOTHING to do with this.

Shcherbakova is another one who may not have the best skating skills, but she should be getting very high scores in performance and interpretation, and, again her skating skills shouldn't affect this mark. Kostornaia's skating skills are better, but that doesn't mean she should always have a higher mark in the performance category as a result.

Tutberidze skaters have hard transitions, some of which they should get credit for, but many times, the judges ignore the "quality" aspect, which falls under skating skills. Right now nobody is doing the "quantity" amount of transitions as her skaters, so the judges are adopting a quantity over quality aspect. Now if there comes another skater who does as many transitions and does them better due to better skating skills, watch the standards change. It's like when Patrick Chan came along and people's expectations changed over what should be rewarded in PCS and why showman Daisuke Takahashi fell behind Chan in PCS by some way towards the end. That's how much skating skills matter. Plus, outside of this scoring system, it's the most basic, fundamental thing of this sport. Of course it matters the most and the ISU guidelines implemented definitions and bullet points to ensure skating skills played a part in every PCS category in some way and even GOE.

 

[muffinplus]

Yhat

Tutberidze skaters have hard transitions, some of which they should get credit for, but many times, the judges ignore the "quality" aspect, which falls under skating skills. Right now nobody is doing the "quantity" amount of transitions as her skaters, so the judges are adopting a quantity over quality aspect.

So you are saying they just have many of them but they are not quality? In the case of Zagitova all or most of her transitions are very difficult and well done. Difficulty isn't quantity.

Plus, outside of this scoring system, it's the most basic, fundamental thing of this sport. Of course it matters the most and the ISU guidelines implemented definitions and bullet points to ensure skating skills played a part in every PCS category in some way and even GOE.

To my knowledge ISU has not come out and said that skating skills matters the most and are the main thing that affects GOE and every PCS. I mean, yes, a difficult entry is probably not possible without at least decent skating skills. Certainly, yes, I agree that you have to have decent fundamental skating skills to be able to do hard transitions but at the top level ( I.e.between Zagitova, Mevdedeva and Osmond) the difference in their skating skills doesn't or shouldn't translate in a stark difference in ability to score highly on the other criteria

 

[VGThuy]

It does if you see Medvedeva's skating and Zagitova's skating the way those who argue Osmond should have scored higher in other manners of PCS do. If you don't then you don't. But other people already argued why they do, and even painstakingly explained why they feel the way they do, and your response was just to glibly say "skating skills only mattered 20% out of 100% in PCS" and that's what I took umbrage with. I mean I could sit all day and argue Julian Yee circa 2017 deserved the highest PE/INT scores but I would be laughed at due to his...skating skills.

Also re: transitions, difficulty in of itself isn't indicative of quality or quantity. I do think many of their transitions may be difficult but many of them aren't executed that well but they do so many of them that they differentiated themselves from their competitors in that regard. Other skaters may do less but some have better execution. As gymnastics fans can tell you, difficult moves can be done of dubious quality but they score well until someone better comes along who does those same skills (or more difficult ones) better and thus the old way of chucking those skills are no longer good enough. That's what I think happened with the new generation and will happen after them.

 

[muffinplus]

It does if you see Medvedeva's skating and Zagitova's skating the way those who argue Osmond should have scored higher in other manners of PCS do. If you don't then you don't. But other people already argued why they do, and even painstakingly explained why they feel the way they do, and your response was just to glibly say "skating skills only mattered 20% out of 100% in PCS" and that's what I took umbrage with. I mean I could sit all day and argue Julian Yee circa 2017 deserved the highest PE/INT scores but I would be laughed at due to his...skating skills.

Glibly? Because they are ONE of 5 components. I have not seen any arguments for why Osmond should have higher scores in the other PCS categories vs Medvedeva that don't have anything to do with skating skills, and again ISU haven't come out and said that someone's superior skating skills should translate into higher components in other categories vs someone with inferior skating skills on that account alone. This is your interpretation but . ISU seem to mark by reputation anyways and conflate everything to someone's tech score so it's all a moot point anyways..

Also re: transitions, difficulty in of itself isn't indicative of quality or quantity. I do think many of their transitions may be difficult but many of them aren't executed that well but they do so many of them that they differentiated themselves from their competitors in that regard. Other skaters may do less but some have better execution. As gymnastics fans can tell you, difficult moves can be done of dubious quality but they score well until someone better comes along who does those same skills (or more difficult ones) better and thus the old way of chucking those skills are no longer good enough. That's what I think happened with the new generation and will happen after them.

Lol so now we have moved on from there are too many of them to they aren't good quality or done well? I didn't say difficulty alone means quality but they are usuallly well done ( there are many examples)So comparing Osmond and Zagitova or Medvedeva you think Osmond should have a higher transition mark than both?

 

[VGThuy]

Re: Transitions, I haven’t moved on to anything. I said the same thing initially. They do a lot of transitions, some of them difficult. Many of them are fug.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

So I put my money where my mouth is and judged the event myself (or the Top 4 ladies anyway). www.skatingscores.com literally makes it SO easy to rejudge events. You just put in your GOE and PCS, and it does all the rest like magic. I think the feature where it will save all your scores in a competition and show how you ranked them is broken, so that's why the "rankings" will be wrong in my protocols.

SP

https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1310939580661731328

LP
Thoughts on Osmond https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311255554283769857
Thoughts on Zagitova https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311256765653225474
Thoughts on Miyahara https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311257896722853889
Thoughts on Medvedeva https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311262212540039168
Results https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311263818463543297

Combined

https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311268429689651201

Actual Scores

https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311272315091591169

I did not get the result I was expecting.