Objectively speaking, who deserved to win the 2018 OGM?

Who deserved to win the 2018 Olympics?

  • Evgenia Medvedeva (Евгения Медведева)

  • Alina Zagitova (Алина Загитова)


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VGThuy

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I just watched the video and just watched one Lutz, and I think the thing that might be confusing people is that it is not a deep outside edge at all, and the edge was deeper and then was going closer to the inside edge but was still on the OE by the time she picks the toe but had she been like a fraction of a second later, who knows? It certainly isn't a strong classic Lutz with proper depth of edge on the OE and with actual counter-rotation. Skaters growing up don't do that and the IJS doesn't really reward it as people will be distracted by lack of "transitions" or something going into it with what it takes to have a really classic Lutz.
 

bardtoob

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I just watched the video and just watched one Lutz, and I think the thing that might be confusing people is that it is not a deep outside edge at all, and the edge was deeper and then was going closer to the inside edge but was still on the OE by the time she picks the toe but had she been like a fraction of a second later, who knows?

The end of the tracing shows an inside edge. There is no confusion except on your part for watching the jump rather than the tracing.
 
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VGThuy

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I see the angle of the blade is still tilted towards the outside edge though very slightly. And not that this matters, but she didn’t get an edge call either for that lutz I watched.
 

Coco

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I see what you're saying, @bardtoob

There is some snow or moisture that comes off the ice from her left foot as she takes off for the lutz in the SP. It seems it could only happen if she were pushing off an inside edge. Never noticed before that the lutz was also a shade under 3.0 revs, too.
 

bardtoob

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For a reference, here is Tuktamysheva:

Picking:

Leaving the ice:

Her tracing:


 

VGThuy

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There’s never any doubt about Tuk’s Lutz. Either way, I think the Lutz needs to be redefined to where the skater has to be on a clear outside edge for three sustained seconds straight prior to the toe pick and there needs to be counter-rotation. Or something like that.
 

muffinplus

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Tuktamysheva has a clear outside egde, no argument. Zagitova's is just much less shallow but who cares.

Sorry, but I am not sure how you can identify which tracings to look at from a screenshot and make a conclusion.
 

gk_891

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Yesterday I had the unfortunate experience of watching Zagitova's 2018 Olympic SP combination at 0.25 speed with my eyes fixed on the tracing as she took off from the ice ... There was no evidence of a lutz.

I didn't say that Zagitova had a true lutz. I'm saying that her entry into the 'lutz' was closer to a back outside edge than Medvedeva's was.
 

bardtoob

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I didn't say that Zagitova had a true lutz. I'm saying that her entry into the 'lutz' was closer to a back outside edge than Medvedeva's was.

Yeah, it was subsequent comments that led to the further discussion. You were not very emphatic.
 

Brenda_Bottems

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This rather tedious discussion about the minutia of lutz edges is precisely why figure skating's television ratings have plummeted. The only edge tracings I desire to look at are those of a paragraph bracket loop when school figures are reinstated.

-Jan
 

VGThuy

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I’m just trying to make a tech rule that would ensure a lutz like Tonya’s in 1994 scores better than either of Med and Zagitova’s because right now it wouldn’t. Or at least a lutz like Tuk’s. People should care about these things.
 

bardtoob

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The technical bickering is :blah: and :yawn:.
Oz had more dynamic power, and more flair, sass, and charisma than both Med and Zag put together.
Why is this poll even a thing?? :drama:

Probably because 1) it happened to be posted and 2) this is like the longest off-season ever!

:ds1: For the record, I think criticizing technique is far less sexist than just about anything else you can criticize in skating (costume, make-up, hair, music, body shape and fitness, the botoxed face of a coach, etc.) :2faced:
 
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Sasha is DIVINE

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I just re-watched Osmond's LP, since she appears to be the People's Choice. I won't deny her skating skills or great jumps (minus the flutz, which she also stepped out of), but to me, she has nowhere near the expression and emotion of Medvedeva. Zhenya told a whole story in 4 minutes, her footwork was brilliantly integrated into the choreography, and she skated it from her soul.

Kaetlyn's program didn't feel as cohesive to me, the program was more front-loaded, and it felt more like an IJS program, right down to finishing with her step sequence.

Short program is probably a different story between the two. I really didn't especially care for Zhenya's short that season.

If Osmond had won the gold over Medvedeva instead of Zagitova, it wouldn't have hurt nearly so much. I would not be making a poll. But that's not what happened, thus the poll options being what they are. I should have titled the thread "Between Medvedeva and Zagitova, Who Should Have Won the 2018 OGM". It won't let me edit it.
 
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jenny12

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If expression and emotion was the only thing Medvedeva had, then she definitely did not deserve her silver medal, let alone gold IMO. Her skating skills were just not up to par (the footwork was all muscle and no edge quality) and all her jumps were muscled and forced. In addition, yes she pantomimed fine but this isn’t the mime Olympics. Miming isn’t real emotion to me. I would think that skating skills and great jumps would be valued over expression and emotion anyway.

I found Zagitova’s program unwatchable (and certainly for her and Medvedeva I blame the coach and choreographer more than them) but between her and Medvedeva, Zagitova’s jumps were better so I guess she deserved the win if we are not considering Queen Osmond.
 
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muffinplus

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Miming in that footwork sequence was actually appropriate and in character with the waltz music

I think under +5 system Zagitova's technical score would and should be higher... though her PCS should be lower
 

tony

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I'd have it Zagitova, Osmond, Medvedeva. Evgenia got away with several technical flaws and high GOE while I thought Zagitova's program and especially the timing to be quite amazing, and still do. Say what you want, but not only was it ambitious, it also required really precise timing or it was going to be near impossible to catch up.

Osmond, under a +5 system, may have made it closer with Zagitova and deservedly so. Most of her jumps should've been at least a +4.
 

muffinplus

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Osmond had a flutz though and easier technical content... and her spins while very good, are not +5 IMO, whereas most of Zagitova's could be +4-+5 IMO.
 

VGThuy

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As we saw, it’s not like Zag’s Lutz was textbook either. @jenny12 explained why I can’t get into Med’s skating. It’s all labored and muscled while never looking finished or polished. Sometimes Med looks like she fights against the ice.
 

Sasha is DIVINE

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I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone and I don't know how to get out. I want to be normal and see all these flaws in Medvedeva's skating. I don't like feeling like I'm crazy.
 

quartz

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I think what is more problematic than Osmond not being included in the original poll, is that an objective discussion was requested. Surely, @Sasha is DIVINE, you’ve been here long enough to know that even the objective is subjective at FSU. :D
 
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VGThuy

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64 people have voted in this poll so far, one more than we need for 7 groups of nine. Depending on the make up of each panel, I wonder how many panels would vote for Med and how many for Zag if we just did a basic 1-2 ordinal ranking for them.
 

blue_idealist

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I think the order was correct. For those suggesting Osmond should've won, I just can't see it. I wouldn't even put her second. The other two were virtually flawless compared to her. (I don't hate Osmond, but I think she was leaps behind Z and M in that competition.)
 

Lemonade20

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Without a doubt Osmond deserved to win. I know she wasn’t perfect but her skating skills and jump quality is a billion times both Zagitova and Medvedeva. Osmond was the only real skater in the top three.
Yes!!!! I thought Osmond told the best story on ice
 

Marco

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For those suggesting Osmond should've won, I just can't see it.

For me, Osmond was the best skater in terms of basics. Just the way she gathered and maintained that speed, while also managing the line and carriage she had. Zagitova and Medvedeva had PCS that were more difficulty / content related (TR) but for me, Osmond won on quality and overall impact. She paced her moves and speed to go with the music. The spins were done to the music. Everything she did had a purpose to the program and the music, instead of just to add points. For Zagitova, except for the ad-libbed 3lutz3loop and subsequent jumps and arm movements that went with the music, a whole chunk of the middle section was off beat. A lot of moves thrown in were not held or did not even reach their full positions before she moved on. Medvedeva's program did not build and lacked energy throughout. Her upper body was very sideways a lot of times. She had the least amplitude of all 3. I simply don't agree with their relative PCS.

On the elements I guess it also depends on what one appreciates. I look for clean, strong jump landings with flow the way Osmond had for most of her jumps. Her technique was cleaner with the least pre-rotation. She also finished off all the spins nicely, a pet peeve of mine that Medvedeva simply could not do.
 
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