Netflix “Bad Sport” documentary series (featuring SLC Pairs)

[LeafOnTheWind]

To be clear, I wasn't there and I didn't make the original comment.

Sorry, I wasn't paying close enough attention.

At 2001 Worlds, it's been established by several FSUers in the audience during the free dance that notes were passed around suggesting that fans turn around during the medal ceremony. This is pre-SLC scandal that we are talking about. I wouldn't be too surprised if some fans were that catty in 2003, as well.

I stand by my original response too. I think most hard-core fans are going to applaud everyone. I don't know how we get from a few people being catty to saying that comprised the audience as a whole. I really didn't feel the dance was fun or audience friendly just because it was rock and roll.

For the record I didn't like Bourne and Kraatz's dance either and most of my surrounding neighbors felt the same. As I said earlier Lobacheva and Averbukh weren't convincing and were scored by technique and reputation. I also felt that Bourne and Kraatz were not convincing in their style. I would have given it to Denkova and Staviski over the top 2 teams any day. They by far won the popular vote where I was sitting.

 

[overedge]

At 2001 Worlds, it's been established by several FSUers in the audience during the free dance that notes were passed around suggesting that fans turn around during the medal ceremony. This is pre-SLC scandal that we are talking about. I wouldn't be too surprised if some fans were that catty in 2003, as well.

I was there and I saw those notes. But I will also say that from what I saw and heard, almost everyone thought that would be the wrong thing to do, even if they personally disagreed with the results. And I didn't see anyone turning around during the medal ceremony.

 

[tony]

I was there and I saw those notes. But I will also say that from what I saw and heard, almost everyone thought that would be the wrong thing to do, even if they personally disagreed with the results. And I didn't see anyone turning around during the medal ceremony.

Which may be all true, but the story in question regarding 2003 Worlds has nothing to do with the medal ceremony and whether certain groups of audience members decided to pull up the dramatics and sit on their hands/not clap at all for the Russians. I don't think it's so far-fetched knowing the skating climate of the 1998-2004 time frame to believe it happened-- of course it's not going to be every last person in the arena participating. I've posted upthread in response to someone who said Russia was not 'the enemy' of North America post-9/11, but any and every person who was on skating message boards knows that there was still a ton of 'THEY ARE CHEATING!' claims with every new close call during that era. Since FSW, SkatingForum (or whatever it was), and FSU were some of the only social media options as far as fans uniting, it was often the North American slant that we saw to everything rather than getting Russian views.

I would have given it to Denkova and Staviski over the top 2 teams any day. They by far won the popular vote where I was sitting.

Of course the popular vote means nothing, but I agree. The OD was a real standout that season in particular.

 

[MacMadame]

I wouldn't be too surprised if some fans were that catty in 2003, as well.

I was there in 2003 and in my section, everyone clapped for everyone. Except for Speedy. (He was sitting near us one section over.)

I don't recall a movement to never clap for any Russians in 2003 but I was very pre-occupied with SkateFAIR at the time. Our attention was very much on the judging system and the ISU.

 

[Judy]

No shit, Sherlock!

You are being deliberately obtuse so I am going to give up now and state just one more time that my major criticism of the documentary is that we did not hear anything from someone who thought Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze should have won apart from Elena and Tamara Moskvina.

I know what the French judge did, so please stop harping on about it.

I am not being obtuse I think we are just looking at things differently.

For me it is the judge ..: for you a fan of B/S.

I felt awful for B/S. Both pairs victims of corrupt judging. I think I only watched the medal ceremony on the news and everyone is smiling but yah no way they were happy with that

So I appreciated hearing her side/feelings on the documentary.

 

[Judy]

Russia almost got it, too. It was almost a brilliant plan. Vote for L&A (your own team) to "prove" that there was no deal and no collusion. Russia walks away with two gold medals, France none.

Canada had been cheating at ice dance and pairs for quite some time. Jean Senft admitted to attempting to rig Nagano for Bourne and Kraatz and was glorified for it. She wasn't a whisteblower. She was a cheat who didn't her way, got caught (cited for national bias), and attempting to drag others down with her. Lavoie and others also made incriminating statements and failed to uphold their duties as judges. I hate how this is always glossed over.

I also find it sad that judges can be swayed so much by the North American audiences. The rudeness and hostility shown to Lobacheva and Averbukh at 2003 Worlds is something I'll never forget. People were literally sitting on their hands because "RUS" followed L&A's names, despite a genuinely fun and audience-friendly program that was also more difficult and skated better. Bourne and Kraatz skated to exactly the type of program their fans had criticized for years. I can't think of any explanation other than anti-Russian and pro-North American bias that explains the audience reaction. And I will always question the "randomness" of the selection of judges that gave Bourne and Kraatz the win. Based on the marks, it's a near statistical certainty that Lobacheva and Averbukh won using the full panel, yet a random draw of the judges somehow produced a B&K win. B&K's big mistake in the short dance was also not reflected in most judges' scores. It was clear to me that the fix was in, but no one cared because their preferred team was winning and the ISU needed an example (with complaining Canadians winning something) to show a magic solution. L&A deserve a second gold medal for 2003 Worlds.

Can you post a link for Jean Senft? My memory was that she taped a conversation to prove allegations of bloc judging. I think. I am very open to discussing that situation.

I didn't "love" B&K's fd.

After the 2002 Olympics there was a huge, huge distrust in judging. I believe there was at least a couple of years of bloc judging controversy on this board before 2002. The non stop which country is judging etc. I personally hated it. I hated my country's coverage of it. It was just non stop and personally draining for me.

I do feel out of all the ugliness that skating has benefitted. In particular ice dance. Who ever thought THAT would be an exciting event.

 

[allezfred]

At 2001 Worlds, it's been established by several FSUers in the audience during the free dance that notes were passed around suggesting that fans turn around during the medal ceremony.

I remember on my way in to the venue there were people outside distributing leaflets to this effect.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

I see dour Europeans are trying shift the narrative to 2001 Worlds.

Back to 2002 Olympics. The facts are:

• The Russians were flawless and terrific in the short program and deserved their lead in that segment.
• However,they skated tentatively and tight in the free skating plus made a jumping error whereas Sale+Pelletier skated with inspiration and vigor and were crystal clean.
• The French judge CHEATED and denied an organic gold medal for Sale+Pelletier.
• Sale+Pelletier are the rightful gold medalists. The Russians are the rightful silver medalists.

-BB

 

[Jackbox9999]

I think what helped convince some people of the cheating was Didier involvement. He had long been a Napoleonic dictator whose federation succeeded in spite of him and not because of it. Him presurring one of his judges was totally plausible and gave her initial story an air of reality

 

[Judy]

I think what helped convince some people of the cheating was Didier involvement. He had long been a Napoleonic dictator whose federation succeeded in spite of him and not because of it. Him presurring one of his judges was totally plausible and gave her initial story an air of reality

Also the gambling connection

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2002/08/01/russian-implicated-in-olympic-scandal/845c6aa1-9168-4447-9a8b-dd827c326a55/

 

[overedge]

Which may be all true,

It is all true. I was there and saw it.

 

[overedge]

Also the gambling connection

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2002/08/01/russian-implicated-in-olympic-scandal/845c6aa1-9168-4447-9a8b-dd827c326a55/

Um, I think it was more the mobster's connection to Anissina who was representing France. Not that the mobster was a gambler.

 

[Judy]

Um, I think it was more the mobster's connection to Anissina who was representing France. Not that the mobster was a gambler.

Yes correct.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

How sad was it when they talked about the reason why Moskvina was so small compared to her sisters was because she was born in Leningrad and she was suffered from malnutrition because of the Siege of Leningrad. No wonder she's one tough cookie.

I'm not saying she's making that up, but she has admitted to "sweetening" a story to make it more effective and heart-rending for North American audiences. Remember all that nonsense she made up of the love story of the gallant Anton coming to Elena's rescue and are now living out their star-crossed True Love on Ice? She admitted it was all made up. Maybe Tamara is just playing with us?

 

[Kimkeb]

This documentary series dropped on Netflix over the weekend and Episode 4 “Gold War” features everyone’s favourites dead horse controversy - the SLC pairs debacle.

Some of quick thoughts:

Spoiler

Naturally it’s pretty biased towards the North American viewpoint. We hear A LOT from Christine Brennan (who says it’s the craziest skating story she has ever covered - (((Tonya/Nancy))) ) and Benoit Lavoie who unsurprisingly is certain that Sale/Pelletier should have won.

We do hear a bit from Elena Berezhnaya and Tamara Moskvina, but nothing from anyone else who could make a case for the Russians winning. And whatever anyone says here there is a case to be made.

The absolute worst part of it was Jamie Sale saying words to the effect “I still don’t know to this day if Elena and Anton were involved in the fix.”

 

[Kimkeb]

I have read The Second Mark and that book is the best representation of the SLC controversy. I would highly recommend that book as it gives very detailed descriptions of all three pairs, the Russians, the Canadians, and the Chinese and what it is like to train in those very different countries. Personally for me I think B&S are the better skaters and although the fall at the end of S&P’s short program didn’t count, I also didn’t think it made them look good. However, there is no question that their long program was fantastic and their choice of music resonates with the North American audience because what woman doesn’t love a good love story! I still remember the movie and Jamie Sale even looks like Ali McGraw!!

 

[giselle23]

I have read The Second Mark and that book is the best representation of the SLC controversy. I would highly recommend that book as it gives very detailed descriptions of all three pairs, the Russians, the Canadians, and the Chinese and what it is like to train in those very different countries. Personally for me I think B&S are the better skaters and although the fall at the end of S&P’s short program didn’t count, I also didn’t think it made them look good. However, there is no question that their long program was fantastic and their choice of music resonates with the North American audience because what woman doesn’t love a good love story! I still remember the movie and Jamie Sale even looks like Ali McGraw!!

I agree about the Second Mark. It is much better than this documentary. As you say, it covers not only the Russians and the Canadians, but also, Shen and Zhao. One thing I find interesting, in retrospect, is that Sale and Pelletier probably would not have won under the IJS system. Not just for some of the IJS technical requirements but also, because the short and long program scores would be combined. The old system often made the short program kind of irrelevant if the skater/pair finished in the top three. If one of those three won the long, they won the gold. Of course, there were various scenarios where the short program did matter but here, it didn't.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

because what woman doesn’t love a good love story!

No argument from me,dear. Selecting "Love Story" for the Olympics was a stroke of pure genius. The music and choreography was significantly more accessible than the program of the Russians,particularly to the feminine persuasion.

I still remember the movie and Jamie Sale even looks like Ali McGraw!!

I hate to gloat,but Mr. Bottems was a doppelgänger for Ryan O'Neal in his prime (but with a fuller head of hair).

-BB

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

I watched this last night and thought it was boring. People outside the sport might find it interesting but I though the production was a mess. And it definitely reminded me why I pretty much can't stand Sale, Pelletier, OR Christine Brennan!

I'm not watching it. I know I'll just get mad all over again. And I too can't stand those three!

 

[allezfred]

I'm not watching it. I know I'll just get mad all over again. And I too can't stand those three!

Pelletier comes out of it best. Brennan at least recognises that Tamara Moskvina is a genius and one of the greatest coaches of all time in any sport.

Sale? She insinuates that Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze had something to do with the judging scandal. I guess it's fitting she is in a documentary series called "Bad Sport". Plus judging by her Twitter she is an anti-vaxxer and pro-Trump so a thoroughly awful person.

 

[Lemonade20]

Pelletier comes out of it best. Brennan at least recognises that Tamara Moskvina is a genius and one of the greatest coaches of all time in any sport.

Sale? She insinuates that Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze had something to do with the judging scandal. I guess it's fitting she is in a documentary series called "Bad Sport". Plus judging by her Twitter she is an anti-vaxxer and pro-Trump so a thoroughly awful person.

Wow, seriously?!? She has always had that mean girl vibe but I didn't realize she was also ignorant too.

 

[Kimkeb]

I find it ironic that Pelletier is married to a Russian now, lol. I wonder what Katia Gordeeva thinks about the pair skating fiasco in 2002. I want to like Jamie Sale, but all the crying and “we were robbed” felt like sour grapes to me. Let’s face it Jamie was very inconsistent with her jumps and did not have the ballet training and artistry of the Russians. I still think throughout their career B&S were better skaters.

 

[Judy]

Wow, seriously?!? She has always had that mean girl vibe but I didn't realize she was also ignorant too.

Yeah definitely not seeing anything about being against vaccines and one tweet mocking Trump back in 2020.

 

[VGThuy]

Talk about rewriting history. L/A’s “Rock n Roll” program was simply awful and only showed they had no idea how to dance to that rhythm with their pantomime faces.

 

[Habs]

Yeah definitely not seeing anything about being against vaccines and one tweet mocking Trump back in 2020.

Check Twitter likes. That's where it all is and some of it is

 

[skategal]

Talk about rewriting history. L/A’s “Rock n Roll” program was simply awful and only showed they had no idea how to dance to that rhythm with their pantomime faces.

I looked it up the other day to see it again because I couldn’t remember it.

It was so bad I must have blocked it from memory.

 

[Judy]

Check Twitter likes. That's where it all is and some of it is

Still not seeing anything but my internet is sketchy at the moment and I only have so much patience with twitter

 

[alchemy void]

I've always been pretty neutral about SLC pairs, but Jamie Sale's twitter likes are more than enough to swing it firmly to B/S for me. It's not the fact that it's a wall of anti-vax pro-Trump stuff, but it's some of the most stupid and juvenile and low IQ shit I've seen in a quite some time.

 

[skategal]

I checked Craig Simpson’s Twitter (Jamie’s husband).

It’s mostly hockey related but he did like a
Tweet in support of vaccine mandates and calling those out who quit due to said mandates rather than get the vaccine.

Guess Mr. and Mrs. don’t agree.

Or are they even still together?

 

[Habs]

I checked Craig Simpson’s Twitter (Jamie’s husband).

It’s mostly hockey related but he did like a
Tweet in support of vaccine mandates and calling those out who quit due to said mandates rather than get the vaccine.

Guess Mr. and Mrs. don’t agree.

Or are they even still together?

Craig Simpson is a nice guy and has always come across as being decent and reasonable.
I’m pretty sure they’re still together.