Netflix “Bad Sport” documentary series (featuring SLC Pairs)

mtnskater

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2,166
To me it proved that whoever shouts loudest can change the outcome of the Olympics. All they need is biased media having a huge tantrum and things get done… very educational. If you don’t like the grade at school, have tantrum…
I‘m sorry but that is an absurd statement. Hello! A judge admitted to cheating at the Olympics! So that should have just been ignored? Because a team you wanted to win did initially win it should all be swept under the rug and everyone should just shut up about it and accept it because there are technical arguments to justify the win? This kind of thinking reminds me of one party in the U.S. ignoring the corruption of its leader because it wants to win at all costs. Ends justify the means. But I digress.

Cheating and deal making among ISU judges to fix results is abhorrent and should never be tolerated period. If that results in a second gold medal we should be glad that something was done to make it right and to publicize it to reduce the likelihood of it happening again.
 

canbelto

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6,659
I think it's hard to look at B/S and S/P's programs without the IJS lens now. When you view the programs today, B/S have much trickier transitions and more complicated footwork. S/P's program does look rather basic now. But back then, in 2002, a "clean" skate free was considered the most important, and things like transitions and complicated footwork and edge changes weren't really something audiences looked for.

S/P skated a clean, crowd-pleasing program designed to appeal to North American audiences.
 

thvu

Usova's Apprentice
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5,484
To me it proved that whoever shouts loudest can change the outcome of the Olympics. All they need is biased media having a huge tantrum and things get done… very educational. If you don’t like the grade at school, have tantrum…
You’d be disgusted at how often this happens in US schools.
If you listened to the CBC commentary by Bezic in 1998 about Bourne and Kraatz being robbed, she was more than ready to explode on the much bigger US TV stage in 2002.
Part of me wants to listen to the commentary out of morbid curiosity, part of me is unsure if I want to sit through such self-delusion. :drama:
 

Brenda_Bottems

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Sale+Pelletier were electric,inspired,and skated to win. The Russians skated their rather monotonous program cautiously and skated not to lose.

The primary injustice here is that the Russian pair,while lovely skaters and people,were allowed to keep their gold medal. They won the silver medal and as such should have been awarded the proper color medal. There can only be one winner.

-BB
 
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Coco

Rotating while Russian!
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16,593
Only one judge admitted to being pressured. So throw her mark out, the FS is a tie, winner would still be the Russians because they came into the FS with a lead.

If you want to stick with the "there should only be one winner" logic, it would be the Russians.

When you get into the statements about the conversations that happened in the fall, the whole thing stunk to high heaven. I remember in the lead up to SLC, David Dore was very prominent and always had a quote in any judging related media coverage. Then he seemed to kind of disappear. Then this scandal happens, and we have a new scoring system.
 

Karen-W

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9,365
Only one judge admitted to being pressured. So throw her mark out, the FS is a tie, winner would still be the Russians because they came into the FS with a lead.

If you want to stick with the "there should only be one winner" logic, it would be the Russians.

When you get into the statements about the conversations that happened in the fall, the whole thing stunk to high heaven. I remember in the lead up to SLC, David Dore was very prominent and always had a quote in any judging related media coverage. Then he seemed to kind of disappear. Then this scandal happens, and we have a new scoring system.
Actually, no, what would have happened would the French judge's marks would have been thrown out and the substitute judge's marks, for both segments would have been used. Wouldn't have made a difference in the SP from what I recall but in the FS it would have flipped the results and, because we're talking about ordinals, all S/P needed to do was win the FS in order to win overall. But that would have been a more controversial decision, especially with Le Gougne changing her story even in SLC as the scandal erupted. So, instead, the solution the IOC and ISU agreed to was the double gold.
 

SpeedySucks

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Messages
501
I think it's hard to look at B/S and S/P's programs without the IJS lens now. When you view the programs today, B/S have much trickier transitions and more complicated footwork. S/P's program does look rather basic now. But back then, in 2002, a "clean" skate free was considered the most important, and things like transitions and complicated footwork and edge changes weren't really something audiences looked for.

S/P skated a clean, crowd-pleasing program designed to appeal to North American audiences.
It’s funny, because when I look at B&S with an IJS lens, I see a team with easy lifts that covered very little ice, a weak death spiral, and a split twist that would have received negative GOE every single time.

It’s a shame that S&P went back to Love Story for the Olympics. Both Tristan & Isolde and Orchid were incredibly complex programs that would hold up technically and artistically today far better than what B&S did in 2001 and 2002.
 

allezfred

Lipinski Stole My Catchphrase
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But one judge admits to cheating. The other judges didn't admit to cheating. The issue isn't what the other judges thought of B&S and S&P. I'm not really following you on what you're driving at though.

The bottom line is that if the French judge hadn't had some type of meltdown the meeting would have commenced and ended and the Russians would have been the sole winners.
No shit, Sherlock! :lol:

You are being deliberately obtuse so I am going to give up now and state just one more time that my major criticism of the documentary is that we did not hear anything from someone who thought Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze should have won apart from Elena and Tamara Moskvina.

I know what the French judge did, so please stop harping on about it.
 

allezfred

Lipinski Stole My Catchphrase
Staff member
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59,842
But back then, in 2002, a "clean" skate free was considered the most important, and things like transitions and complicated footwork and edge changes weren't really something audiences looked for.
That was the public/media perception, but it was not the case necessarily when it came to judging. Famously you had 1999 Worlds where Shen/Zhao skated cleanly and Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze didn’t and yet B/S won 6-3 with the judging panel.
 

SLIVER

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Messages
2,637
Only one judge admitted to being pressured. So throw her mark out, the FS is a tie, winner would still be the Russians because they came into the FS with a lead.

If you want to stick with the "there should only be one winner" logic, it would be the Russians.

When you get into the statements about the conversations that happened in the fall, the whole thing stunk to high heaven. I remember in the lead up to SLC, David Dore was very prominent and always had a quote in any judging related media coverage. Then he seemed to kind of disappear. Then this scandal happens, and we have a new scoring system.
That’s actually not true, if you throw her out the substitute judge comes in and they voted for the Canadians IIRC.
 

allezfred

Lipinski Stole My Catchphrase
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S/P skated a clean, crowd-pleasing program designed to appeal to North American audiences.
This is another thing that the documentary rewrote history about. "Love Story" was an old programme that Sale/Pelletier and their own coaching team considered too simple to win Worlds and Olympics which is why they skated to Tristan & Isolde in 2000/2001 and initially chose "Orchid" for the Olympic season which they were never able to skate cleanly. That's why they went back to "Love Story" and the selection was nothing to do with the Olympics being in North America.
 

ЭPiKUilyam

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1,057
I swear I remember reading an interview / article, or maybe it was a post here, in the November (?) 2001 about the Russians plan to get L/A the ice dance gold. It seemed crazy at the time, but involved holding them out of a lot of competitions, stating they weren't at 100% when they did compete and seeing to it that the Canadians, the Italians and the Lithuanians were knocked back throughout the season.

In the end, they got obscenely close to the gold medal in the free skate, if memory serves. It was a 5/4 split.

So I couldn't help but notice that the French judge's actions after the pairs event a) tarnished the Russian's pairs gold and b) brought scrutiny to the ice dance event. Who knows how that 5/4 split would have gone if all eyes weren't on the judges?
Also, what crossed my mind is that after Russia got their pairs gold, what would keep Russia from not holding up their end of the deal and just voting for RUS dance team in the end? When two dishonest cheats are in collusion, how can you trust either side, especially after one side already got what they wanted? I think the whole pairs controversy eventually forced the French team to be named Olympic champions, since RUS couldn't take both events without major backlash (Especially from Didier and the French Federation!! LOL).
 
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Louis

Private citizen
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Also, what crossed my mind is that after Russia got their pairs gold, what would keep Russia from not holding up their end of the deal and just voting for RUS dance team in the end?

Russia almost got it, too. It was almost a brilliant plan. Vote for L&A (your own team) to "prove" that there was no deal and no collusion. :lol: :lol: Russia walks away with two gold medals, France none.

Canada had been cheating at ice dance and pairs for quite some time. Jean Senft admitted to attempting to rig Nagano for Bourne and Kraatz and was glorified for it. She wasn't a whisteblower. She was a cheat who didn't her way, got caught (cited for national bias), and attempting to drag others down with her. Lavoie and others also made incriminating statements and failed to uphold their duties as judges. I hate how this is always glossed over.

I also find it sad that judges can be swayed so much by the North American audiences. The rudeness and hostility shown to Lobacheva and Averbukh at 2003 Worlds is something I'll never forget. People were literally sitting on their hands because "RUS" followed L&A's names, despite a genuinely fun and audience-friendly program that was also more difficult and skated better. Bourne and Kraatz skated to exactly the type of program their fans had criticized for years. I can't think of any explanation other than anti-Russian and pro-North American bias that explains the audience reaction. And I will always question the "randomness" of the selection of judges that gave Bourne and Kraatz the win. Based on the marks, it's a near statistical certainty that Lobacheva and Averbukh won using the full panel, yet a random draw of the judges somehow produced a B&K win. B&K's big mistake in the short dance was also not reflected in most judges' scores. It was clear to me that the fix was in, but no one cared because their preferred team was winning and the ISU needed an example (with complaining Canadians winning something) to show a magic solution. L&A deserve a second gold medal for 2003 Worlds. :mitchell:
 

SLIVER

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2,637
Russia almost got it, too. It was almost a brilliant plan. Vote for L&A (your own team) to "prove" that there was no deal and no collusion. :lol: :lol: Russia walks away with two gold medals, France none.

Canada had been cheating at ice dance and pairs for quite some time. Jean Senft admitted to attempting to rig Nagano for Bourne and Kraatz and was glorified for it. She wasn't a whisteblower. She was a cheat who didn't her way, got caught (cited for national bias), and attempting to drag others down with her. Lavoie and others also made incriminating statements and failed to uphold their duties as judges. I hate how this is always glossed over.

I also find it sad that judges can be swayed so much by the North American audiences. The rudeness and hostility shown to Lobacheva and Averbukh at 2003 Worlds is something I'll never forget. People were literally sitting on their hands because "RUS" followed L&A's names, despite a genuinely fun and audience-friendly program that was also more difficult and skated better. Bourne and Kraatz skated to exactly the type of program their fans had criticized for years. I can't think of any explanation other than anti-Russian and pro-North American bias that explains the audience reaction. And I will always question the "randomness" of the selection of judges that gave Bourne and Kraatz the win. Based on the marks, it's a near statistical certainty that Lobacheva and Averbukh won using the full panel, yet a random draw of the judges somehow produced a B&K win. B&K's big mistake in the short dance was also not reflected in most judges' scores. It was clear to me that the fix was in, but no one cared because their preferred team was winning and the ISU needed an example (with complaining Canadians winning something) to show a magic solution.
Again I don’t know if this is true but apparently only 5 judges voted for B/K to win and they were all selected in the random draw. Apparently the other 7 judges that were dropped all went with L/A. Someone remind me how many judges were on the panel back then but I remember the number was huge I think it was around 12 (if not more) and the computer would randomly pick the votes that counted.
Anyway I don’t know whether this story is true but it certainly appeared in the Russian media, that I am sure of, it was repeated several times but the L/A camp.
 
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TAHbKA

Cats and garlic lover
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18,145
Without watching the Netflix have a feeling so little happens in the USA pairs and their chances are so low they are trying to spike the interest in whatever way. So ok, at the end of the day there will be 5K Americans watching the Olympics and not understanding why the Russians or the Chinese won and why the Americans hardly made it to top 10. They will also not understand why Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze are not there and will be relieved seeing Moskvina, while being 100% sure anyone coached by Moskvina can not possibly win on their own accord.
What on earth are these documentaries are for? To boost Brennan's ego?
 

skatingguy

Golden Team
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Again I don’t know if this is true but apparently only 5 judges voted for B/K to win and they were all selected in the random draw. Apparently the other 7 judges that were dropped all went with L/A. Someone remind me how many judges were on the panel back then but I remember the number was huge I think it was around 12 (if not more) and the computer would randomly pick the votes that counted.
Anyway I don’t know whether this story is true but it certainly appeared in the Russian media, that I am sure of, it was repeated several times but the L/A camp.
14 judges of which nine were randomly selected for the results.
I also find it sad that judges can be swayed so much by the North American audiences. The rudeness and hostility shown to Lobacheva and Averbukh at 2003 Worlds is something I'll never forget. People were literally sitting on their hands because "RUS" followed L&A's names, despite a genuinely fun and audience-friendly program that was also more difficult and skated better. Bourne and Kraatz skated to exactly the type of program their fans had criticized for years. I can't think of any explanation other than anti-Russian and pro-North American bias that explains the audience reaction. And I will always question the "randomness" of the selection of judges that gave Bourne and Kraatz the win. Based on the marks, it's a near statistical certainty that Lobacheva and Averbukh won using the full panel, yet a random draw of the judges somehow produced a B&K win. B&K's big mistake in the short dance was also not reflected in most judges' scores. It was clear to me that the fix was in, but no one cared because their preferred team was winning and the ISU needed an example (with complaining Canadians winning something) to show a magic solution. L&A deserve a second gold medal for 2003 Worlds. :mitchell:
Both of the programs by Lobacheva & Averbukh & Bourne & Kratz were terrible that year. It really was a low point for Ice Dance. As for audience reaction I don't think it was anti-Russian just that an American audience wouldn't be that familiar with Lobacheva & Averbukh. They were always very overshadowed by the other Russian ice dancers, and they never really did anything memorable. The only reason I remember this program is that those yellow outfits burned a hole in my memory.
 

mackiecat

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I think it's hard to look at B/S and S/P's programs without the IJS lens now. When you view the programs today, B/S have much trickier transitions and more complicated footwork. S/P's program does look rather basic now. But back then, in 2002, a "clean" skate free was considered the most important, and things like transitions and complicated footwork and edge changes weren't really something audiences looked for.

S/P skated a clean, crowd-pleasing program designed to appeal to North American audiences.
Try watching the shorts under the IJS system. For one, S/P would have a 2.0 deduction for the falls. Not looking at levels, just GOE China would probably go ahead. But would they have fallen behind the other Russians or the Americans? The Canadian’s short choreography was quite good so components would be fairly high
 

SLIVER

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14 judges of which nine were randomly selected for the results.

Both of the programs by Lobacheva & Averbukh & Bourne & Kratz were terrible that year. It really was a low point for Ice Dance. As for audience reaction I don't think it was anti-Russian just that an American audience wouldn't be that familiar with Lobacheva & Averbukh. They were always very overshadowed by the other Russian ice dancers, and they never really did anything memorable. The only reason I remember this program is that those yellow outfits burned a hole in my memory.
Yes so Russian rumours were that it was 9 for L/A 5 for B/K and the ones selected were all 5 for B/K and 4 for L/A giving B/K the win. I find it hard to believe but everything is possible :rolleyes:
 

tony

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Yes so Russian rumours were that it was 9 for L/A 5 for B/K and the ones selected were all 5 for B/K and 4 for L/A giving B/K the win. I find it hard to believe but everything is possible :rolleyes:
There was also a Junior Worlds situation where the random computer selected one pairs team to win and it was statistically proven (maybe by @Louis, even), that the other team had won all of the other ordinals from the judges except for the majority 5 that gave them the win. I think it was Shestakova/Lebedev over Dube/Davison in 2004, but I remember a really detailed analysis of how it couldn't have been any other way. So it's definitely possible that it happened in 2003, as well. Maybe this instance was retaliation for 2003 Worlds ;)
 

mpal2

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I also find it sad that judges can be swayed so much by the North American audiences. The rudeness and hostility shown to Lobacheva and Averbukh at 2003 Worlds is something I'll never forget. People were literally sitting on their hands because "RUS" followed L&A's names, despite a genuinely fun and audience-friendly program that was also more difficult and skated better.
I was there and I wouldn't say that people didn't clap because they had RUS after their names. The only thing I remember thinking about Lobacheva and Averbukh is that they tried to pander to a NA audience but completely failed to grasp the style of the dance and failed miserably at it. It just wasn't good. I saw Russians trying to skate like they were North Americans and it bombed. Most of the people sitting around me were asking their friends if this team had ever watched this style of dance at all and found it just confusing and bad. Most came to the conclusion that they judges had them that high because of their technique and we just didn't know enough about that aspect. If they had done any other dance they probably would have done a lot better with the audience. It was very underwhelming.
 

thvu

Usova's Apprentice
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5,484
Yes so Russian rumours were that it was 9 for L/A 5 for B/K and the ones selected were all 5 for B/K and 4 for L/A giving B/K the win. I find it hard to believe but everything is possible :rolleyes:
Supposedly, there were printouts available to officials that had all the marks and ordinals of the judges, but still anonymous.

The chance that of all five judges that gave B&K the win were chosen as part of the 9 out of 14 was about 6.3%. Small, but not outside the realm of chance.
 

tony

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I was there and I wouldn't say that people didn't clap because they had RUS after their names. The only thing I remember thinking about Lobacheva and Averbukh is that they tried to pander to a NA audience but completely failed to grasp the style of the dance and failed miserably at it. It just wasn't good. I saw Russians trying to skate like they were North Americans and it bombed. Most of the people sitting around me were asking their friends if this team had ever watched this style of dance at all and found it just confusing and bad. Most came to the conclusion that they judges had them that high because of their technique and we just didn't know enough about that aspect. If they had done any other dance they probably would have done a lot better with the audience. It was very underwhelming.
How long were these people fans? Because L/A had a very good Jive (rock & roll) in the 1998 season and then used it as an exhibition afterwards. I didn't love L/A's free dance, but I also really did not like B/K's free dance.

There's a big difference between people not clapping at all and people giving a light ovation for something they didn't love. But I suspect everyone knows this ;)
 

mpal2

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How long were these people fans? Because L/A had a very good Jive (rock & roll) in the 1998 season and then used it as an exhibition afterwards. I didn't love L/A's free dance, but I also really did not like B/K's free dance.

There's a big difference between people not clapping at all and people giving a light ovation for something they didn't love. But I suspect everyone knows this ;)
I wouldn't know how long they were fans. I think you are overstating the hostility. I saw a lot of light ovations with confused faces and very little non clapping at all.
 

tony

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I wouldn't know how long they were fans. I think you are overstating the hostility. I saw a lot of light ovations with confused faces and very little non clapping at all.
To be clear, I wasn't there and I didn't make the original comment. But you said 'most people around you' were questioning whether they had ever seen that style of dance before, which seems strange to me seeing how they had an oldies rock OD in Nagano and then kept it as an exhibition. Perhaps you were around all new fans.

At 2001 Worlds, it's been established by several FSUers in the audience during the free dance that notes were passed around suggesting that fans turn around during the medal ceremony. This is pre-SLC scandal that we are talking about. I wouldn't be too surprised if some fans were that catty in 2003, as well.
 

escaflowne9282

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Actually, no, what would have happened would the French judge's marks would have been thrown out and the substitute judge's marks, for both segments would have been used. Wouldn't have made a difference in the SP from what I recall but in the FS it would have flipped the results and, because we're talking about ordinals, all S/P needed to do was win the FS in order to win overall. But that would have been a more controversial decision, especially with Le Gougne changing her story even in SLC as the scandal erupted. So, instead, the solution the IOC and ISU agreed to was the double gold.
IIRC. The substitute judge under the ordinal system was only supposed to be used if a judge came down with an illness or injury during the event. In such a case, the sick judge would notify the referee , recuse him/her/themself ,and then the substitute judge would judge for the rest of the event.
The substitute judge was never meant to be used after the fact and hadn't been in either rules or practice. In the 1999 Worlds Pairs LP ,for example, not only was the substitute not used, but the ordinals of the colluding judges stood . IMHO There's no way using the substitute judge would have been allowed if the matter went to CAS.
Considering all factors ,2 gold medals was really the only thing that could have been the outcome .
 
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