Nathan Chen (#Slaythan Fans) thread

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I'm going to be the dissenting voice and say that I still like last year's programs better. Something about the combination of the vest and the jerky movements in the short made me think of an old man with the caffeine jitters. :D Still, they are good programs and well suited to him, and there's no doubt he skated the heck out of them. Very well done. :respec:
 
I'm going to be the dissenting voice and say that I still like last year's programs better. Something about the combination of the vest and the jerky movements in the short made me think of an old man with the caffeine jitters. :D Still, they are good programs and well suited to him, and there's no doubt he skated the heck out of them. Very well done. :respec:

I determine if I like a program if I can watch it again and again at every event performed! Not sure it's "must see" TV with these latest offerings! Have to check it out on a replay on the Olympic Channel later! NBC's been a problem on my cable with sound and picture breaking up! What was up with Voronov? He looked gassed and ready to keel over after his LP performance! :rolleyes: :drama: :respec:
 
I'm going to be the dissenting voice and say that I still like last year's programs better. Something about the combination of the vest and the jerky movements in the short made me think of an old man with the caffeine jitters. :D Still, they are good programs and well suited to him, and there's no doubt he skated the heck out of them. Very well done. :respec:

I agree with you on the short programs but I have no preference on the long programs. Still I think the Shae-Lynn and Nathan combination is really good.
 
I'm going to be the dissenting voice and say that I still like last year's programs better. Something about the combination of the vest and the jerky movements in the short made me think of an old man with the caffeine jitters. :D Still, they are good programs and well suited to him, and there's no doubt he skated the heck out of them. Very well done. :respec:

Can someone please explain Nathan’s new LP? He skates it so beautifully - no complaints there! - but, to me, the music is blah (no real melody) and the shirt and greasy hair look odd. The music is from a film about migrants trying to get into the USA illegally, right (“Desierto”)?
 
Can someone please explain Nathan’s new LP? He skates it so beautifully - no complaints there! - but, to me, the music is blah (no real melody) and the shirt and greasy hair look odd. The music is from a film about migrants trying to get into the USA illegally, right (“Desierto”)?

Those were my complaints; THANKS! The look just isn't working for me! :rolleyes: :COP: :judge: :violin: :yikes:
 
I posted this elsewhere, but it's kind of hidden:

From what I read about Nathan last season, he was encouraged (by his mother?) to take dance and/or ballet (?) lessons from an early age right up through Senior Men. I hope he is still doing it. And I believe he might be because he danced/skated those programs at Skate America 2018.

All male (and female) skaters should be so encouraged. It shows. Payoff Bingo!

Also, great commendation to his choreographers for 2018, Shae-Lynn Bourne for the short and Marie-France Dubreuil for the long. They each bring magnificent culture to the table, some extremely unique moves.

Nothing wrong with his Long shirt except that it may be, well, a little long or big? Love the tie-dye. And it matches his fabulous new long hair!
 
I posted this elsewhere, but it's kind of hidden:

From what I read about Nathan last season, he was encouraged (by his mother?) to take dance and/or ballet (?) lessons from an early age right up through Senior Men. I hope he is still doing it. And I believe he might be because he danced/skated those programs at Skate America 2018.

All male (and female) skaters should be so encouraged. It shows. Payoff Bingo!

Also, great commendation to his choreographers for 2018, Shae-Lynn Bourne for the short and Marie-France Dubreuil for the long. They each bring magnificent culture to the table, some extremely unique moves.

I've seen this before, but I'm not seeing it in their skating! I've posted before how I feel most US skaters are rather stiff; pretty much having a "stick up their arse" syndrome! Few really show their balletic chops IMO! I suggested male skaters have to be open to "skating like a woman" to really show grace and style on the ice! Weir & Abbott prove my point; it can be done! :rolleyes: :judge: :respec:
 
Those were my complaints; THANKS! The look just isn't working for me! :rolleyes: :COP: :judge: :violin: :yikes:

Glad that it’s not just me!
Nathan showed true ballet with Le Corsair two years ago and Mao’s Last Dancer/Rite of Spring last year. Whatever he’s trying to portray this year isn’t the same.
 
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Whatever he’s trying to portray this year isn’t the same.

:lol: Nathan is an acquired taste for some people apparently. Don't fret those of you who don't get his moves or his programs. You get brownie points for not having to know what you are missing. :p

Because Nathan studied ballet and danced on stage as a youngster does not mean he's going to move exactly like a ballet dancer over the ice. Nathan's aesthetic has a more edgy, quirky, modern dance vibe. Shae Lynn, Lori, and Marie-France get that beautifully and we see the amazing results. :encore: No matter what genre dancers dance in, they all need to undertake ballet training as a basic foundation. And Nathan has that underpinning as a figure skater. He was so good as a young ballet dancer, that he was offered the opportunity to study ballet exclusively and to become a full-fledged professional ballet dancer. But lucky for us, Nathan chose figure skating.

In some respects, Nathan's ballet training as a youth might be responsible for some of the stiffness in his legs and his posture as he moves over the ice. It could be a difference in the approaches to technique in figure skating vs ballet that Nathan carried over from ballet to figure skating that didn't work as well but was never noticed earlier on. Those differences in technical approach and body awareness may or may not have been recognized and worked on when Nathan was training and dancing on stage at the same time that he was learning to skate and compete on the ice. It would also have helped Nathan's skating skills and blade mastery had he been guided to practice figures in the way Patrick Chan did routinely.

In the ballet studio, a dancer holds their body tightly and erect in their core while practicing ballet barre. Dancers also bend in their knees, but they need to maintain a tighter, pulled-in upright carriage in their legs and their body, even as they try to develop stretch and flexibility in moving across the stage. The approaches to technique are completely different. While stretch, flexibility, and erect posture in skating are as desirable as in ballet, the technical approach to jumping in figure skating is different from dance. I also think there's something to be said for the fact that the flooring surface on stage and in training studios has give, while the ice has no give. Learning how to caress the ice for some skaters, has to be taught and diligently, painstakingly acquired.

By now, I doubt that Nathan's overall body carriage is going to change much. He could be encouraged to develop a bit softer knees.* However, Nathan learned his jump technique with holding his body the way he holds it, so it's likely difficult to change the muscle memory he's used to. And the question is whether he really needs to focus on changing too many things at this stage. Hanyu hasn't focused on trying to improve his line and stretch aesthetically, because it's not a priority, nor a drawback to winning championships. Uno has the most gorgeous, softest figure skater knees on the planet, but he also has technical weaknesses, and generally a one-note dramatic approach to his skating, that lacks variation and nuance.

*ETA: Actually, looking more closely at Nathan's programs this season, he has developed softer knee bend and he moves deeper into the ice, surely as a result of Shae-Lynn's influence, in addition to working with his other choreographers.
 
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I loved Nathan at SkAm. Last year I felt his artistry in his SP; but felt he lost in the LP so focused on the jumps. This time, though :swoon: His basic skating looked so strong; he felt the music and really performed and landed the big jumps. His 3A looked better than ever.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOgM96NiQ5g sp SA :encore: :swoon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm0YxFX-D14 fp SA :encore: :cheer2:

Wow, looking at these programs (as I mentioned earlier), Nathan actually has become more flexible and softer in his knees, likely via working with his choreographers. His triple axel has improved and he's continued to perfect his spins. Lots of lovely dynamic moments in both programs with the spins. Plus, he's correcting the forward tendency on some of his jump landings too. He seems stronger, smoother and in more command artistically as well in this season's fp as opposed to his Olympic season fp. So it has helped that he has somewhat redirected his focus away from an intensity surrounding quads.

In the scoring at SA, Nathan should have received more credit on transitions in the sp, and higher marks for composition and interpretation. What are the judges not seeing?!
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1819/gpusa2018/SEG001.HTM

In the fp judging, IMO Nathan was still kept down in some areas more than he should have been, especially on composition and interpretation!
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1819/gpusa2018/SEG002.HTM

The judges clearly do not fully recognize the magnificence that's in front of their eyes in the skating of Nathan Chen. He is remarkable, and he's changing the way we view the sport, and the way music and personality can combine to create magic. It's a shame that Nathan Chen as a phenomenon on ice is too good for this sport. I said it before and I'll say it again, that maybe Nathan should have chosen ballet over figure skating. Nathan understands the music in ways that Alex Johnson and Timothy Dolensky do. I know that both Timothy and Nathan also play musical instruments. That can make a huge difference in understanding how to interpret music on the ice.

Contrastingly, Yuzuru Hanyu is a bravura technician with an out-of-this-world ability to perform mesmerizing jumps. Hanyu's flowy quality over the ice and his SS are often mistaken for artistic skill. But Hanyu is not a creative artist who understands and expresses the music in the way that Nathan, Timothy, Alex, Jason, Jeremy Abbott, et al can do. Patrick Chan possessed phenomenal, unsurpassable SS, yet he recognized that he could improve his artistic and interpretive skills. Chan spent the latter years of his career trying to fully master a musical understanding allied with a nuanced movement quality. Hanyu generally skates fine with or over the music, but he does not interpret the music with any depth or nuance in the way that fully developed artists on ice can do.

These quality differences are completely misunderstood by many figure skating judges, IMHO. And of course, judges' decisions are too often impacted by country affiliation conflicts of interest. I realize that comparing scores across competitions is a fruitless enterprise. And the new scoring system will complicate results at any given competition. Still, Hanyu's sp marks at AC for CO and IN are slightly higher than Nathan's, and that's simply inaccurate. Judges need to understand the differences between sublime and magical CO and IN vs average CO and IN that is actually lacking in musical understanding, depth of expression, detail and nuance. The differences are not easy to recognize. Hanyu may deserve slightly higher scores on transitions and SS than Nathan, but on CO and IN, nope. Also, performance execution marks should not be based solely on having a slight technical miscue, especially when every other detail throughout a program is executed brilliantly (as in the case of Nathan's sp). And I think sometimes that transitions can be over-rated. Not every program should be jam-packed with transitions for the sake of transitions. I don't even think some judges really understand what transitions are or how to judge them.

Here are Hanyu's marks and performances at AC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8Zc_ukuteY
https://skatecanada.ca/2018-autumn-classic-international/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vIZ7A3pFGA
https://skatecanada.ca/2018-autumn-classic-international/

I actually like the music, drama, and costume of Hanyu's fp better than his generic channeling of JW's iconic Otonal for his sp. But Hanyu didn't receive good marks in his fp because of tech errors. I also don't think Hanyu's spins are singularly anything to write home about. Moreover, the judges don't know how to judge PCS on the basis of PCS, separate from technical execution. If they did, they wouldn't automatically give top skaters high PCS when they skate clean. And drop them overall when they make errors. Judge on the actual choreo and the actual ability to interpret music with creativity, musical understanding and nuanced expressiveness. Please! :drama: I know I'm talking in a vacuum. Nobody who controls this sport cares.

It's hard to judge when our emotions are involved, and if we lack an understanding of how to analyze performance abilities and musical interpretive skills. Clearly Nathan and Hanyu are two champions who do not have a lot separating them. But they are different in their abilities, and I don't see judges ever being able to recognize those subtle differences. So it boils down to whether technical mistakes are made, and PCS will go up or down on that basis. And that's sad, especially with the untested new GOE range and rules changes.

The rules were intended to level the playing field in part so that Nathan's ability to land 5 to 6 quads won't take things out of the judges hands. :p I really laugh at that, because it was the ISU's huge mistake in the first place to ever over-value quads the way they did. And now they are doing a course correction with another hammer. Hands down, at his best Hanyu is a bravura technician with suspended jumps, superb athleticism, flowing movement quality and excellent SS. Nathan is an extraordinarily creative skater with great jump technique, superb athleticism, a dynamic and unique movement aesthetic, and an uncredited natural ability to interpret the music. Frankly, we likely haven't even seen Nathan's absolute best yet, because his extraordinary talents are so expansive and limitless. Nathan's two programs this season are innovative and incomparable, and deserve higher scores for composition and interpretation, bar none.
 
I really agree with everything you said in the above post, @aftershocks, especially regarding Nathan’s understanding of musical nuances. That has ALWAYS been a unique and rare talent of his from day one. Not to mention he has always been so vastly versatile and capable of catering his movement style to different types of music and mood, unlike most other skaters who generally move the same way regardless of what they are skating to. Rare musicality like that has always been his most underappreciated and overlooked forte, IMO. It’s a shame that in the past 3 or so years he has been so focused on the quads that I feel more often than not we don’t even get to see 50% of what he’s actually capable of artistically. But I think if one had followed him closely since his junior days and also what he has been doing in his show programs, they would know that phenomenal talent has always been there. I’m just so glad that he’s finally starting to let loose in competitions, perhaps shifting focus from quads to the rest of the performance and bringing what he’s been doing on show ice onto competion ice, and letting the world see it. That combination of effortless charisma and musicality is just amazing. Many people says he has improved so much artistically, but to me he didn’t really - he simply learned to open up.
 
I'm going to be the dissenting voice and say that I still like last year's programs better. Something about the combination of the vest and the jerky movements in the short made me think of an old man with the caffeine jitters. :D Still, they are good programs and well suited to him, and there's no doubt he skated the heck out of them. Very well done. :respec:
The vest needs to go, it eats his neck!
Apart from that, I love both Nathan's programs and his way of moving, so individual and interesting.
 
I really agree with everything you said in the above post, @aftershocks, especially regarding Nathan’s understanding of musical nuances. That has ALWAYS been a unique and rare talent of his from day one. Not to mention he has always been so vastly versatile and capable of catering his movement style to different types of music and mood, unlike most other skaters who generally move the same way regardless of what they are skating to. Rare musicality like that has always been his most underappreciated and overlooked forte, IMO. It’s a shame that in the past 3 or so years he has been so focused on the quads that I feel more often than not we don’t even get to see 50% of what he’s actually capable of artistically. But I think if one had followed him closely since his junior days and also what he has been doing in his show programs, they would know that phenomenal talent has always been there. I’m just so glad that he’s finally starting to let loose in competitions, perhaps shifting focus from quads to the rest of the performance and bringing what he’s been doing on show ice onto competion ice, and letting the world see it. That combination of effortless charisma and musicality is just amazing. Many people says he has improved so much artistically, but to me he didn’t really - he simply learned to open up.

Absolutely! I agree with you 100 percent. There was a Junior Worlds program that Nathan skated which had Ted Barton effusing over his artistic abilities. Here's the CBC broadcast version with Kurt Browning (and I'm not sure of the female commentator). This is not the clip commentated by Ted Barton, Kurt also offers praise and thoughtful insights:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwTUs71GEPc So artistic from beginning to end, from the tips of his fingers to the point of his toes; and Nathan plays the piano too so he understands the music he's skating to! :encore:And that 3-2-2 combo!!! Or is it a 3-3-2? Forget about the gutsy attempts at two quads (one eeked out successfully). Plus he's soooo cute! Blast from the not-so-distant past! And young Nathan's spins are absolutely gorgeous! :swoon: Wow, Nathan's expressiveness and understanding of musical nuance! And then he turns around a few years later and makes history landing 5 quads cleanly in a fp!!! :eek: :rollin:This is a performance that NBC should be sharing with viewers to demonstrate the fact that Nathan has always had artistry. We see Raf standing on the sidelines here knowing full well the winning talent Nathan has on all cylinders... But Raf also knows from experience that figure skating is such a dicey crapshoot and a difficult, frustrating sport.

This young performance, and many others by Nathan is why I have to laugh at people trying to say that Nathan didn't or doesn't have artistry. He's always had artistic creativity and technical/athletic abilities at a high level. That's why he was always beating so many competitors who were years older than him on his way up through the lower ranks. When he came up to seniors, Nathan simply saw that mastering quads would help quickly vault him to the podium. If Boyang Jin could do it as a newbie to seniors without presentation skills and artistic ability, sure why couldn't Nathan, and then some! Oh but the ISU and quirks of fortune ironically didn't allow Nathan to get there right away. Now of course after a lot of sturm und drang, Nathan is the current World champion. And also, there are more wrinkles in the judging system. But no matter the scoring system, Nathan is a bonafide skating talent, as well as a college student at Yale. :kickass:

Ha ha, Nathan Chen did something historical more than once that's never been done before or since by anyone else, and never previously contemplated to ever be done cleanly. But the astounded and gobsmacked ISU, far from admiring Nathan's achievements, rushed to implement rules changes they had been hemming and hawing over for awhile :lol: No way could the ISU abide having the ability to manipulate scores taken out of their hands. :drama: Anyway, it was the ISU's own stupidity which led to their pull-back on quad-crammed fps. The UR situation that has arisen in the sport is also as a result of skaters attempting more difficult acrobatic rotations, which is what the sport itself has valued over artistry. :blah:

It is the ISU that decided post-2010 to overvalue quads, instead of having listened to coaches and skaters years before about reviewing the impact of quads on the sport and getting ahead of that development. Nope, ISU is always bringing up the rear with untested 'hammer directives,' and endless rule changes from season-to-season that benefit the judges' often errant decisionmaking, instead of benefiting the skaters and figuring out what will best advance the sport in the most fruitful direction for its growth and survival.

Quads did need to receive more value, but NOT the huge points the ISU came up with. And then, their bonehead decision to say that falls on quads were okay. And now a complete about-face on the stupid 'falling on quads' rule, along with the unfortunate phenomenon of the rise of URs, and using over-scrutiny of URs as a tool for placements (in the same way that PCS are manipulated for placements). Added to this, the confounded GOE range rule which judges do not know how to apply. This is going to be an interesting season scoring-wise, and not in a good way, with the judges having such clueless and unaccountable leeway in GOE range marks! :COP:
 
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Can someone please explain Nathan’s new LP? He skates it so beautifully - no complaints there! - but, to me, the music is blah (no real melody) and the shirt and greasy hair look odd. The music is from a film about migrants trying to get into the USA illegally, right (“Desierto”)?

Caravan is an jazz standard by Duke Ellington Caravan I don't see it on the soundtrack from the movie Desirto. 2/10 on the troll.
 
Land of All seems to be on the movie's soundtrack

https://www.what-song.com/Movies/Soundtrack/102280/Desierto

So Nathan's fp music is used in Desierto then.

Here's the 1936 version of Caravan, composed by Duke Ellington and Juan Tizol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r95flkZciJE

Thanks for the heads-up info @floridaice. :)

ETA:
Here's another variant, updated jazz version of Caravan, from the movie Whiplash, heavy on the drums:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS-G4UQTfUo

And Wynton Marsalis' take:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_7uaWJAiOA

And Fanfare Ciocarlia's version that Nathan is using for his sp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw2Rgp18-Ys
 
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So Nathan's fp music is used in Desierto then.

Here's the 1936 version of Caravan, composed by Duke Ellington and Juan Tizol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r95flkZciJE

Thanks for the heads-up info @floridaice. :)

ETA:
Here's another variant, updated jazz version of Caravan, from the movie Whiplash, heavy on the drums:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS-G4UQTfUo

And Wynton Marsalis' take:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_7uaWJAiOA

And Fanfare Ciocarlia's version that Nathan is using for his sp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw2Rgp18-Ys

If I remember corretly Nathan said “Whiplash” is his favorite movie. His ending pose is like drumming. :)
 
The judges clearly do not fully recognize the magnificence that's in front of their eyes in the skating of Nathan Chen. He is remarkable, and he's changing the way we view the sport, and the way music and personality can combine to create magic. It's a shame that Nathan Chen as a phenomenon on ice is too good for this sport. I said it before and I'll say it again, that maybe Nathan should have chosen ballet over figure skating. Nathan understands the music in ways that Alex Johnson and Timothy Dolensky do. I know that both Timothy and Nathan also play musical instruments. That can make a huge difference in understanding how to interpret music on the ice.

Agreed. IMO, one of the main things about Nathan's skating--that separates him from the rest of the boys--is that he really moves his upper body like a dancer (it's where his ballet training really comes through), in a way that no other current men's skater can do. :swoon:
 
Hanyu is not a creative artist who understands and expresses the music in the way that Nathan, Timothy, Alex, Jason, Jeremy Abbott, et al can do

And I would add Denis Ten, AdaRipp, Paul Wylie, Derrick Delmore, Ryan Jahnke, Dai Takahashi, Jeff Buttle, Josh Farris, Johnny Weir, Takahiko Kozuka, Tomas Verner, Rohene Ward, Stephane Lambiel, Adrian Schultheiss, and Tatsuki Machida to the list of superb interpreters of music!
 
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Caravan is an jazz standard by Duke Ellington Caravan I don't see it on the soundtrack from the movie Desirto. 2/10 on the troll.

Caravan is Chen’s SP. The LP Land of All “music” to which I referred earlier is from the film Desierto..but isn’t there a bit of irony with the SP “Caravan” in today’s world??? Perhaps a message from Nathan about his two programs being interconnected ..Caravan for the SP and a film about illegal crossings on the US-Mexico border for the LP? LOL! Well, I LOVE his Caravan SP no matter what.
 
Caravan is Chen’s SP. The LP “music” is from the film Desierto..but isn’t there a bit of irony with the SP “Caravan” in today’s world??? Subtle message from Nathan about his two programs...Caravan for the SP and a film about illegal crossings on the US-Mexico border for the LP? LOL! Well, I LOVE his Caravan SP no matter what.

Sorry, I read your message as his SP, not LP. That's what I get for posting after my bedtime!
 
So Nathan's fp music is used in Desierto then.

Here's the 1936 version of Caravan, composed by Duke Ellington and Juan Tizol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r95flkZciJE

Thanks for the heads-up info @floridaice. :)

ETA:
Here's another variant, updated jazz version of Caravan, from the movie Whiplash, heavy on the drums:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS-G4UQTfUo

And Wynton Marsalis' take:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_7uaWJAiOA

And Fanfare Ciocarlia's version that Nathan is using for his sp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw2Rgp18-Ys

How could we have forgotten the most famous skating version of Caravan prior to Nathan Chen’s?
Gordeeva & Grinkov LP 1986:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EGy7c-kXBx0
 
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