Napa valley wine train ejects black women for being 'too loud'

[Artistic Skaters]

Debunked what?

 

[agalisgv]

Went back and checked, and it was the rumor the employee was fired--not the incorrect Facebook post.

 

[Artistic Skaters]

They have a photo of the Facebook post before it was deleted.

Here come the letters to the editor:

A humble suggestion for Wine Train - http://napavalleyregister.com/news/...cle_b37782e7-76ce-52bb-a159-87de4e4b7256.html

We have a suggestion for the Napa Wine Train, which encourages drinking wine but does not like the results that wine drinking normally produces.

Who complained on Wine Train? - http://napavalleyregister.com/news/...cle_8f616c6b-1c9e-5fb9-8c99-16c9c92ca9d3.html

Who were the whistleblowers? I assume they are white upper-middle-class older snobs, and because they were sitting in their ivory tower existence and could not, would not want to be disturbed and were jealous of the fun the Sistahs were having. Next time, let the whistle blowers rent the a whole car and isolate themselves from the rest of the world.

 

[DBZ]

I live in Northern CA...and live very close to Napa. It's beautiful, but let's just say it isn't the most diverse place. A sea of white people, with a few Asians mixed in. I rarely ever see Black people or Non-Asian POCs there.

So, I'm very inclined to believe this incident was racially motivated. In a yuppy, upper crust (predominately white) place like Napa, a group of loud black people is definitely going to be perceived very differently than a group of loud white people.

Sad to say, it is internalized racism, plain and simple. America has a long way to go to unlearn its anti-blackness.

 

[AxelAnnie]

My brother lives in Napa... Yountville actually. Napa is approx 38‰ Hispanic... With a smattering of blacks and Asian. It is more diverse than you might think. Not fancy. Foodies for sure. Lots of old wealth.... Unlike it's neighbor Sonoma. The Silverado Trail and wineries bring in tons and tons of tourists. There is not a bunch of bias toward blacks.

 

[snoopy]

Well I will point out that - to his credit - the owner apologized and offered to make amends right away. This is not a case IMO where someone stuck his heels in the sand and covered up his ears saying la la la la.

And it is unfortunately that his apology will now be used against him in litigation. His response was what we want from a moral POV but legally he is now going to get shafted for doing the right thing.

 

[Japanfan]

Ching, ching, let the cash register ring!

Personally I think if the group was too cheap to buy a private dining car in the first place, they don't have room to complain when asked to rein in their behavior in the public dining cars. JMHO

I appreciate your POV on this issue AG, though I'm surprised that you don't think racism was involved at all.

However, the law suit happiness in America never ceases to amaze.

Can someone please discriminate against me because I'm Jewish? I'd gladly suck it up if I could receive 1/11th of $5 million dollars, thank you very much .

 

[agalisgv]

I have no idea whether racism was involved or not. But from the account provided by the plaintiffs, the train company's conduct was in accordance with their published, stated policies.

Back in the day, I used to travel on long-distance trains a fair bit, so I know the seating arrangements for dining used by the Napa wine train are industry standard. Trains are not restaurants--there are real space and time constraints, so there are different protocols specific to trains. Nothing of what I've read indicates that the train company deviated from typical train policies. The plaintiffs have said this is the first time they chose to get together on a train, so maybe they were expecting a typical restaurant experience. But the train's policies were clearly published, and they didn't follow them. To me, that's pretty cut and dry.

It seems that the problems tend to arise with large parties booked in the regular daytime dining cars. Perhaps the train company should institute a policy that any group over 4 must book a private dining car and cannot be seated in the general dining car sections. Restaurants typically impose a mandated tip for parties over six because of the extra time and trouble (and the fact they often don't tip anywhere near to what they should), so this would be along those lines. The train gets more money, the patrons aren't disturbed, and the larger parties are able to enjoy themselves without complaints. Win-win for everyone.

 

[Vash01]

I appreciate your POV on this issue AG, though I'm surprised that you don't think racism was involved at all.

However, the law suit happiness in America never ceases to amaze.

Can someone please discriminate against me because I'm Jewish? I'd gladly suck it up if I could receive 1/11th of $5 million dollars, thank you very much .

It's not that easy to sue- LOL. I am sure a lot of the discrimination lawsuits are thrown out.

However, this (USA) is a lawsuit/sue- happy culture. I am sure everyone has heard of the infamous McDonald case. It wasn't racism related, but it was so easy for someone to sue the business for not warning him that the coffee was hot- it was common sense but he won the case. To top it all, when I asked my law professor about it, he sided with the idiot who sued, saying that the business should have warned him.

 

[Vash01]

They have a photo of the Facebook post before it was deleted.

Here come the letters to the editor:

A humble suggestion for Wine Train - http://napavalleyregister.com/news/...cle_b37782e7-76ce-52bb-a159-87de4e4b7256.html


Who complained on Wine Train? - http://napavalleyregister.com/news/...cle_8f616c6b-1c9e-5fb9-8c99-16c9c92ca9d3.html

I love the first letter that says-

"We have a suggestion for the Napa Wine Train, which encourages drinking wine but does not like the results that wine drinking normally produces."

The second one could be right too. I don't know anything about the Napa area although I am very familiar with parts of California (bay area mostly, which is very diverse).

 

[agalisgv]

I am sure everyone has heard of the infamous McDonald case. It wasn't racism related, but it was so easy for someone to sue the business for not warning him that the coffee was hot- it was common sense but he won the case. To top it all, when I asked my law professor about it, he sided with the idiot who sued, saying that the business should have warned him.

Waiting for Prancer to explain why this wasn't a frivolous lawsuit, and how McDonald's engaged in very reckless conduct that wasn't well reported.

 

[MsZem]

However, this (USA) is a lawsuit/sue- happy culture. I am sure everyone has heard of the infamous McDonald case. It wasn't racism related, but it was so easy for someone to sue the business for not warning him that the coffee was hot- it was common sense but he won the case. To top it all, when I asked my law professor about it, he sided with the idiot who sued, saying that the business should have warned him.

It was a woman, she suffered horrible burns, and IIRC there were issues with the temperature of McDonald's coffee and quite a few people had suffered burns from it. There's a documentary called Hot Coffee with dealt with this and a number of other lawsuits.

I have an equal opportunity dislike for noisy people on trains. A recent experience involved a bunch of teenagers on their way, I believe, to a Chris Brown concert. It was rough. Luckily, I was able to just move away from the group without much trouble.

 

[AxelAnnie]

It was a woman, she suffered horrible burns, and IIRC there were issues with the temperature of McDonald's coffee and quite a few people had suffered burns from it. There's a documentary called Hot Coffee with dealt with this and a number of other lawsuits.

I have an equal opportunity dislike for noisy people on trains. A recent experience involved a bunch of teenagers on their way, I believe, to a Chris Brown concert. It was rough. Luckily, I was able to just move away from the group without much trouble.

From Wikipedia

On February 27, 1992, Stella Liebeck, a 79-year-old woman from Albuquerque, New Mexico, ordered a 49-cent cup of coffee from the drive-through window of a local McDonald's restaurant located at 5001 Gibson Boulevard Southeast. Liebeck was in the passenger's seat of her grandson's 1989 Ford Probe, which did not have cup holders, and her grandson Chris parked the car so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her coffee. Liebeck placed the coffee cup between her knees and pulled the far side of the lid toward her to remove it. In the process, she spilled the entire cup of coffee on her lap.[9] Liebeck was wearing cotton sweatpants; they absorbed the coffee and held it against her skin, scalding her thighs, buttocks, and groin.[10]

Um...........sometimes you just have to be a little more careful than that.

 

[IceAlisa]

Waiting for Prancer to explain why this wasn't a frivolous lawsuit, and how McDonald's engaged in very reckless conduct that wasn't well reported.

For the 100th time, it seems.

 

[Artistic Skaters]

Um...........sometimes you just have to be a little more careful than that.

Um...........sometimes the businesses need to make the coffee at the temperature they are legally required to make it & not at a much higher temperature so that it stays fresh longer & saves them a few cents per pot. Especially when several instances have been pointed out to them & they clearly disregarded the regulations. Now they have "Watch out, it's hot" labels on the cups, but really "Watch out for McDonald's penny pinching management" would be a better warning because that's what caused the problem time and time again.

 

[Artistic Skaters]

When your seatmates are loud and louder :

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-banks-public-space-20150901-column.html

 

[AxelAnnie]

I was referring to putting anything hot between your legs in a moving vehicle. Ouch

 

[Artistic Skaters]

Except if you would have read the actual case information, the vehicle wasn't moving at the time. Didn't you even read your own Wikipedia post?

 

[jamesy]

Didn't you even read your own Wikipedia post?

Or at least the sentence before the bolded one.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Or at least the sentence before the bolded one.

Thank you. I read the information a little differently and visioned her grandson(I think) out of the car and putting the cream and sugar in for her, and then driving off..

Back to the topic.

I spoke to my brother this evening, and asked him if he thought the ejecting of the group of women was racially motivated.

Note: My brother is one of the leading family law attorneys in the nation. (I taught him everything he knows) ATTORNEY is perhaps the operative word. He lives in Yountville which is right next door to Napa, where his office is.

His answer: Absolutely not! No way! Reason being....no one in their right mind, would ask a group of black women (men or children) to get out of a public location in this day and age, in this state, in that town, without having all their ducks in a row. If anything, they would bend the other way.

He also said what others have said. The cars on the train are really small. Everyone is supposed to have a good time, but not at the expense of others.

And, my brother told me he is always correct!

 

[Japanfan]

But from the account provided by the plaintiffs, the train company's conduct was in accordance with their published, stated policies.

Back in the day, I used to travel on long-distance trains a fair bit, so I know the seating arrangements for dining used by the Napa wine train are industry standard. Trains are not restaurants--there are real space and time constraints, so there are different protocols specific to trains. Nothing of what I've read indicates that the train company deviated from typical train policies. The plaintiffs have said this is the first time they chose to get together on a train, so maybe they were expecting a typical restaurant experience. But the train's policies were clearly published, and they didn't follow them. To me, that's pretty cut and dry.

As I said, I visited Napa and regretted not having a chance to ride the wine train. As I also indicated, my experience of Napa was that it was place where people went to drink too much good vino, eat good food (Napa is know for its superior restaurants) and have fun. I expected the wine train to pretty much be a bar on wheels, and for its customers to be convivial, outgoing and probably loud. Wine is a social lubricant after all.

I just doubt that the train upholds its policies all the time and would guess there have been plenty of loud groups celebrating on it who didn't book a private space. The policies include support for 'responsible drinking' but responsibility is open to interpretation. I'm sure many train customers have more wine than technically they should if they were going to be driving, or going to be at work. The people I saw in the restaurants there usually had lots of wine on the table (i.e two bottles for a couple I chatted with).

Plus, the wine train makes profits from the sale of wine, so it is not going to police customers for alcohol consumption and is unlikely to refuse selling wine to a customer unless that person is completely out of control (which the book club women were not).

There were a few links posts to article appearing to say much the same, but I couldn't open them.

Also, given that children and babies are allowed on the train, are they subject to the rule that the train "reserves the right to relocate guests making a disturbance"?

Are families kicked off the train when an infant or toddler wails on and on or throws a prolonged temper tantrum? Nothing is more annoying in a closed space that that, but people usually just have to put up with it.

I doubt the train considers children acting up a disturbance, because children do that all the time. If there were cases in which families were kicked off the train because of that, families would stop riding the train. And it would lose money. Just like it is probably going to lose money now, as some people won't ride it to protest the eviction of the book club members.

His answer: Absolutely not! No way! Reason being....no one in
their right mind, would ask a group of black women (men or children) to get out of a public location in this day and age, in this state, in that town, without having all their ducks in a row. If anything, they would bend the other way.

Well, the CEO doesn't share your brother's view. He said the action was wrong and should not have happened - basically admitting that racism was involved to some extent (not to say he actually believes it) and that some people involved in the situation were not in their right mind. Plus, he admitted that the Facebook post which was deleted did not depict that situation accurately. As such, it was not written by an employee is his or her right mind.

Even if the company's action can be defended by policies and protocols, it was still very stupid to kick the women off the train.

I would guess that some of wine train employees' heads are rolling today.

Also, the women's lawyer does not agree with your brother and I very much doubt that your brother is "always correct. Especially given that he's a lawyer and lawyers specialize in making the incorrect seem correct.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Well, the CEO doesn't share your brother's view. He said the action was wrong and should not have happened - basically admitting that racism was involved to some extent (not to say he actually believes it) and that some people involved in the situation were not in their right mind. Plus, he admitted that the Facebook post which was deleted did not depict that situation accurately. As such, it was not written by an employee is his or her right mind.

Even if the company's action can be defended by policies and protocols, it was still very stupid to kick the women off the train.

I would guess that some of wine train employees' heads are rolling today.

Also, the women's lawyer does not agree with your brother and I very much doubt that your brother is "always correct. Especially given that he's a lawyer and lawyers specialize in making the incorrect seem correct.

Well I would hope the woman's lawyer doesn't agree with my brother. If he did, she needs different counsel.

As to the rest.....can you say Public Pressure?

 

[Artistic Skaters]

It's media attention that's making it happen now & the women will make the most of it. But in the end, it's going to be the company's own bad business practices that will probably do them in when it comes to this case. It's not a regular transportation train, like agalisgv discussed previously. It's a specialty train for dining & entertainment. They are all too happy to accept large parties without sufficient guidelines or plans in place for handling them. Reserving the right to reseat or remove anyone making a disturbance is clearly not enough if they have to remove or threaten expulsion from the train on a regular basis.

I don't usually like loud social situations (except for concerts) & probably wouldn't have wanted to sit next to this group on the train. But the company did not use good judgment & especially did not address the potentially slanderous Facebook post at the level needed. If there was a police report detailing any actual physical abuse or threats, it would've been detailed by news sources by now. And vice-versa, if none exists it will be detailed if a lawsuit is pursued. Along with every other expulsion & imaginable detail from train excursions the past couple years or so.

 

[Japanfan]

They are all too happy to accept large parties without sufficient guidelines or plans in place for handling them. Reserving the right to reseat or remove anyone making a disturbance is clearly not enough if they have to remove or threaten expulsion from the train on a regular basis.

I meant much the same, though I worded it differently.

I don't usually like loud social situations (except for concerts) & probably wouldn't have wanted to sit next to this group on the train.

I don't usually like loud social situations either, but I would have wanted to sit next this group, especially given that I'm a book-lover.

After a few glasses of wine, I'd probably just join their party!

 

[Artistic Skaters]

*** #LaughingWhileBlack: 'Sistahs' file $11 million race discrimination lawsuit :

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justic...s-file-11-million-race-discrimination-lawsuit

A fellow passenger on Aug. 22 told WPTV that she watched in disbelief as staff harassed a group of people who were merely drinking wine and laughing ... given the fact that the other, non-black guests were behaving in the same way and not removed, I can only conclude that it was discrimination.

But Johnson has said the group will hold firm in its lawsuit until race is acknowledged as a factor.

A likely key to the group’s case is whether other parties have been treated similarly. The company says that tour groups need to be removed about once per month.

But other former customers have uploaded to Facebook and Yelp evidence of previous, non-black groups heartily enjoying themselves on the train (without expulsion). One Latina grad student came forward to say she felt her group had received similar treatment, although they were allowed to complete their tour.

*** Black women kicked off Napa Wine Train to sue for discrimination :

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-napa-wine-train-black-women-lawsuit-20151001-story.html

In a statement, Sam Singer, a spokesman for the Napa Valley Wine Train, said the company "takes the allegations of discrimination very seriously, and is conducting its own investigation. The company has hired former FBI agent Rick Smith to lead that probe and asked anyone with information to contact him at (415) 391-0500.

"After the investigation has been conducted we will have the appropriate response to the complaint that is being filed seeking $11 million in damages," he said.

He said the company was sold on Sept. 15 and "the new owner is honored to continue to improve and build upon the Napa Valley Wine Train experience."

 

[agalisgv]

Ching, ching, let the cash register ring !

 

[Artistic Skaters]

*** Napa Wine Train Race Claims Survive :

http://www.courthousenews.com/2016/02/10/napa-wine-traNapa Wine Train Race Claims Survivein-race-claims-survive.htm

On Tuesday, U.S. District Judge Thelton Henderson denied the motion for a more definitive statement, granted some but not all motions to dismiss, and granted claims to strike some defendants.

The book club's attorney, Waukeen McCoy, greeted the order as a win, saying the judge saw "no basis to dismiss the claim under Title VI for racial discrimination or the disability claim under the Americans with Disabilities Act."

Henderson said Johnson et al. acknowledged they erred in stating Title VI claims based on gender and age, asked the court to strike the words or allow it to amend the complaint. He granted the motion to strike, while partly dismissing the claims with leave to amend. The Wine Train failed, however, to have the court dismiss claims that it benefits from federal funding for flood control.

It looks like the lawsuit is getting underway this spring. One of the recent news articles says "two of the women even lost their jobs". I am interested in reading more about this (but could find no more info) since I question why they would have lost their jobs due to a weekend trip on a train when there were no arrests involved. Too stressed to go to work, asked to resign because of press disturbances outside their work location or what?

I guess we will find out before too long if the true intent of the lawsuit is changing discriminatory practices
or change (as in $$$11 million dollars worth )

 

[AxelAnnie]

Shoot....I'll fire myself for 11 million dollars!

 

[Artistic Skaters]

The end of the story -

*** Book club members settle suit over ejection from Napa wine train :

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Book-club-members-kicked-off-Napa-wine-train-7255962.php

So apparently the message the women wanted to get across to other businesses is to reach a confidential settlement for an undisclosed sum, not to get the message out about discrimination (???)

 

[Vash01]

The end of the story -

*** Book club members settle suit over ejection from Napa wine train :

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Book-club-members-kicked-off-Napa-wine-train-7255962.php

So apparently the message the women wanted to get across to other businesses is to reach a confidential settlement for an undisclosed sum, not to get the message out about discrimination (???)

They did get their message out. Discrimination is hurtful to the bottomline. It is bad business.