Napa valley wine train ejects black women for being 'too loud'

That's hilarious. Once I went to a movie in Times Square where the audience was mostly black and it was just like that. It was fun!
 
Interesting: That has not been my experience but the last time I was a minority at a movie was watching Malcolm X. Something interesting did happen: At one point of the movie the black people burst out laughing and the white people, including me, were wondering what we missed. It was something Malcolm said before he hit a man over the head with a bottle.

The only other time was with a friend seeing "Road House." My friend and I just thought the violence was getting sillier and sillier. The only other people in the cinema were three black women. When Patrick rips some guys throat out one of the women said "Oh give me a effing break" and then we all burst out laughing. I never thought her exclamation had anything to do with her race.

But I would have a hard time thinking that there would be running commentary on a film like "Schindler's List." And I think I would welcome it watching a lousy film.
 
As an African American, I agree we are loud at times. My mom complains about my loudness all the time. I'm just wondering why a staffer did not go up to the ladies and let them know they're have been some complaints and the volume. Were they scared of 12 older black women? Probably. 12 educated black women are profiled as scary to many non minorities. I say find out the person in charge who decided to handle the situation this way and post information about them. I know this sound horrible, but I think folks think to atone for their racist behavior. Shame them.

In regards to talking at movie theater by blacks. Some blacks do it but not all. I for one hate it and I tell the theater manager about ALL those who speak during movies. Also, my mom and I saw the Melissa McCartney movie "Spy" a few weeks ago. During the matinee, there were lots of over 60 white ladies who talked non stop until the actual movie started. Someone hushed them and they had some choice words for that person.
 
I am utterly astounded that people are talking about this in racial tones. . Race or ethnicity or gender.... None give you license to be excused for being rude or obnoxious.

Getting a joke at a movie or play (I thought I would fall on the floor laughing at Billy Crystal's however many Sundays it was. Not everyone got all the jokes... But our demeanor in the theater was appropriate. GEESH. Do Jews get Jewish.... Sure. There is a shorthand. Same for any race. Or group of people who share a commonality. Is it rude to be obnoxious... Yep. Ask Patti LuPone
 
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I don't know about Wine Train but in my gym there is a woman who screams at irregular intervals on the treadmill. A loud, piercing, high-pitched WOOOOO! The first time I heard it, I thought someone was hurt.

I don't wear headphones during workouts, just watch the Discovery channel with closed captioning and so am exposed to the WOOOOO! every time. She is not listening to music or singing along, no headphones or earbuds, no TV on. Just random screaming. Not grunting, actual screaming.

I feel like she is ruining my experience and invading my personal space but luckily our workouts don't coincide too often.

Oh and that screaming doesn't burn calories--she is just as soft around the middle as she was months ago. Meow! :cat:

She is a blue-eyed blonde, fwiw.
 
AxelAnnie said:
I am utterly astounded that people are talking about this in racial tones. . Race or ethnicity or gender.... None give you license to be excused for being rude or obnoxious.
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But who gets to decide what constitutes rude or obnoxious? Why are your views on what is rude or obnoxious the right ones and the ones other people should follow?
 
topaz said:
As an African American, I agree we are loud at times. My mom complains about my loudness all the time. I'm just wondering why a staffer did not go up to the ladies and let them know they're have been some complaints and the volume. Were they scared of 12 older black women? Probably. 12 educated black women are profiled as scary to many non minorities. I say find out the person in charge who decided to handle the situation this way and post information about them. I know this sound horrible, but I think folks think to atone for their racist behavior. Shame them.

In regards to talking at movie theater by blacks. Some blacks do it but not all. I for one hate it and I tell the theater manager about ALL those who speak during movies. Also, my mom and I saw the Melissa McCartney movie "Spy" a few weeks ago. During the matinee, there were lots of over 60 white ladies who talked non stop until the actual movie started. Someone hushed them and they had some choice words for that person.
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I am white and my father was the oldest of eight in New Jersey and at gatherings we are boisterous and loud. It is joyful or the memories are joyful as so many have died. I don't think it is fair to label one group loud. And within our loud, joyful group my dad was the quiet one. Go figure.
 
Eh, there are likely cultural differences in some cases though maybe it is not really driven by race exactly. I have a NJ wing of the family and when they visit us Midwesterners, we can barely stand it. There are times we are literally dumbstruck because we don't know what to do with their loudness. My nieces laughs - oy. Could break glass.
 
snoopy said:
there are likely cultural differences ... though maybe it is not really driven by race exactly
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That's the tricky part though, isn't it? Of course cultural differences exist, but as soon as you actually acknowledge them, any perspective inherently runs the risk of appearing racist.
 
snoopy said:
Eh, there are likely cultural differences in some cases though maybe it is not really driven by race exactly. I have a NJ wing of the family and when they visit us Midwesterners, we can barely stand it. There are times we are literally dumbstruck because we don't know what to do with their loudness. My nieces laughs - oy. Could break glass.
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Five bucks says they also talk loudly with their hands.
 
Cachoo and Snoopy very good points. I agree a lot of it is cultural and other factors. My mom and two of my aunts aren't nearly as loud as I am. My mom tells me I'm loud many times.
 
If the train co. says this happens all the time and it boots people every month (presumably of various ethnicities), how does that affect this incident? Is it OK to boot some groups and racist to boot others?
 
I think it's easy to pull the race card here, but I don't know if I think it would apply. On one hand, the other patrons may not have reported them for being loud if they weren't African American; on the other hand, race may not have played into it, and this may be more a symptom of the type of people that typically ride the wine train (rich or upper middle class, retired or near retirement, taking a stay- or vacation, willing to pay $124-$300+ for a short train ride).

What made this situation different is the way the case was handled: most removals (according to NWT) take place at the turnaround or when passengers are boarding - not stopping in the middle of the ride - and nearly none involved the police, as in this case.

It should also be noted that, despite booking as a group and requesting seating together, they were sat separately in the car among other passengers; the staff would not move them together when it was requested. Part of the loudness could have been the group trying to communicate with each other over those separations, or the laughing being spread out around the car.
 
AxelAnnie said:
Well first if all society does.
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Yes, society does. But which parts of society? All of it?

Most social rules are based upon white, European norms. Societies and cultures that are quieter or louder than that will stand out, and are often criticized, but, really, is what they are doing truly rude? Or just outside of the norms that were imposed upon them by people not of their culture?
 
Spun Silver said:
If the train co. says this happens all the time and it boots people every month (presumably of various ethnicities), how does that affect this incident?
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I have now read several articles about this & agree with the train company they were 100% wrong in their handling of the problem. It does not seem like they've done a very good job identifying their customer base & scheduling accommodations accordingly.

Most of us here know that if we go to a restaurant & are seated at a 2 person table next to a 10 person table, the 10 person table is invariably going to be louder & more boisterous than our 2 person table will be. (Yes, there may be exceptions to this, but not from my 2 person table :lol:) Luckily at a restaurant, we can usually just ask for another table if we don't want to socialize at that level. But it sounds like this may not be the case with the train company whose goal is people warming seats & they want them filled no matter what. It places them in a reactive rather than proactive situation where they must respond to complaints from passengers on demand who were not forewarned or given any other options.

If the train company knows they are booking these assorted groups, they can plan better in advance. For example, cars for large parties (with an advance disclaimer that these cars may be more social) & cars for small parties with designated quiet areas among other solutions.
 
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michiruwater said:
Yes, society does. But which parts of society? All of it?

Most social rules are based upon white, European norms. Societies and cultures that are quieter or louder than that will stand out, and are often criticized, but, really, is what they are doing truly rude? Or just outside of the norms that were imposed upon them by people not of their culture?
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Social rules are based on the accepted behavior of the society. It doesn't matter that "The other guy made the rules".

Think Japan. If you want to do business there, you figure out what is acceptable and what isn't. Can you imagine if in that setting explaining that in your country it is acceptable....well thanks for sharing. but that is not where you are.

Don't show the soles of your feet in UAE. Quite rude.

In Spain - drive with your horn.

In England...nope rude.

If you are part of a society you make a choice whether act in accordance with the customs and socially accepted behaviors. If you don't - you might miss the train ! (Now that is funny, I don't care who you are :)
 
Willin said:
It should also be noted that, despite booking as a group and requesting seating together, they were sat separately in the car among other passengers; the staff would not move them together when it was requested.
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The company explicitly states that traditional rail seating is used (meaning others not from your party can be seated at your table.) That is common practice for train dining cars. They also state if a party is willing to pay for an upgrade, they can have reserved seating. And evening dining is also not shared dining (but costs more). Apparently the book club didn't want to pay for those upgrades (they chose a daytime dining experience).

This article also states whenever a group is deboarded, a train security official is present. When one cannot be there, the local police are called as happened in this instance. So the protocol they followed was the same as used for other parties.

In the rearmost of six Pullman cars, four women sat at each of two tables on either side of the aisle, while three others occupied seats just ahead, she said.

“I’m an author so I like to chronicle things on social media,” said Johnson. “We did a selfie video like, 'Hey, we’re on the train, choo choo!’ and put it on Periscope (a streaming video service) and Facebook. We were really excited about the experience.”

After several miles of “chitchatting” among the club members, Johnson said, the train’s maître d’hotel told the group, “Your noise level is a little loud, and you have to tone it down so we don’t make others uncomfortable."

“We thought the purpose of the Wine Train was to have a good time and enjoy being with a large group. No one told us of any noise ordinance. If you get a group of 11 women talking and laughing, it’s going to be loud,” Johnson said.

Later, the maître d’hotel came by a second time, warning the women they would be ordered off the train if they didn’t quiet down, Johnson said.

“She said people were complaining and I said, ‘Who’s complaining?’ And she said, ‘Well, people’s faces are uncomfortable,'” said Johnson. “At that point, one passenger nearby said, 'Well, this is not a bar.' We reacted, 'Yes, it is a bar, a bar on wheels.'"
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http://napavalleyregister.com/news/...cle_324d30f5-129b-534e-9bb8-f3e79c8d3e8b.html

So they were twice told to quiet it down, and both times they argued with train personnel instead of complying.

Here's a copy of the published dining seating policies:
http://winetrain.com/faq/
 
According to information from some of the many articles, several guests complained about the noise level, yet several other guests were talking & taking pictures with the women in the group - asking about the book they were reading. At the point where all the women laughed at the same time, an article said it was in response to something told to them by another guest.

There are other examples in the articles detailing celebrations by other parties at other times where the guests were just as loud (or louder) & were not treated in this manner or removed from the train. There is the story of the nurse, a repeat guest on the train, who had a similar experience as these women when she made the trip with a group of 10. Although they were not removed from the train, she said the staff pursued them about it even though they consciously reduced their noise level below that of the entire car. She wrote a review saying it's better to limit trips to 4 guests.

II. We Reserve the Right to Relocate Guests Making Disturbances
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For the comfort and safety of all our guests, we reserve the right to relocate or remove anyone that, in our sole opinion, is creating a disturbance within any of the Napa Valley Wine Train’s offerings.
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But the "sole opinion" is apparently based on very subjective complaining by one customer at a time & there seems to be no standard by the company. They could limit trips to smaller groups, they could have some cordially written guidelines for groups, etc. There is a lack of professionalism by the staff & management if they cannot anticipate some of these problems & work them out in advance.

This incident reminds me of the overzealousness of the airline stewardesses who do not like what the girl is wearing or the slogan on someone's t-shirt & want to parade them off the plane, often with humiliating comments. Those passengers usually end up with apologies too.
 
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If the company is really bouncing noisy people off their train every month, maybe they do need to rethink their business model.

Unless it's a strip club or a biker bar, it seems odd to me that a company would have to do that. Either accept that you have a boisterous clientele and go with it, or make modifications. Maybe limit your customers to 3 glasses of wine or play classical music or have the 10 AM quiet train and the 3pm loud train. Something.
 
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I spent a brief time in Napa and regretted not having an extra day to ride the wine train.

In my experience Napa is a fun place where people with some money to spend visit vineyards, buy wine, get loaded on fine wine and eat wonderful food. I actually had a conversation with a couple seated in the next table to us in a restaurant - a rather loud one, at that - something that doesn't usually occur in restaurants.

Napa is wine country and I can think of no better way for a group to celebrate a birthday than riding the wine train. It's not a cheap activity, and more wine equals more money for wine sellers and the train.

We are talking about a wine train, not a silent mediation retreat!
 
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*** Lawyer for booted book club says women considering lawsuit against Napa Valley Wine Train

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/4413834-181/lawyer-for-booted-book-club?page=1
But if there’s no out-of-court resolution, McCoy said he would sue under state laws prohibiting businesses from discriminating against customers based on race.

The law, the Unruh Civil Rights Act, allows for punitive damages to deter future abuses if it can be proven the business acted in a “malicious and oppressive way,” McCoy said.
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McCoy said an offer by Wine Train officials to host the women on another trip in a 50-seat private car was a “slap in the face” to his clients, who were humiliated by the incident.

He said the women want train employees to undergo sensitivity and diversity training so another group does not have the same experience. They also want financial compensation that was greater than the approximately $6,000-package offered by the train, McCoy said.
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From the above link.

Ching, ching, let the cash register ring!

Personally I think if the group was too cheap to buy a private dining car in the first place, they don't have room to complain when asked to rein in their behavior in the public dining cars. JMHO
 
I don't know if the case will rise to the level of racial discrimination, but what's going to cause a problem for the company is the Facebook post & the "walk of shame" combined with the other recent complaint by the Latina group. No matter how anyone thought they acted on the train, the company has admitted the Facebook post was incorrect & it said they were physically abusing guests & staff. It's a serious accusation & the company better get it right if they want to post it.
 
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