Music rights clearance issues (policy being implemented by the ISU starting in 2024)

[barbk]

I'm thinking about ChoBat's RD with its 11 music cuts.

And if this incentivizes skaters to avoid using ridiculous numbers of cuts...fringe benefit!

 

[peibeck]

It's an awful situation for musicians, but I wish the blame could go where it's deserved. Almost no skaters make a profit from skating, so it's hardly commerical exploitation and musicians largely didn't care about skaters using music for sport back in times when musicians could make a living from their art in normal ways.

And because artists now make so little from streaming/CD sales and radio plays these days is another reason concert ticket prices have soared. (Production prices notwithstanding for elaborate concerts like Taylor Swift or Beyonce). Touring is where they make their real money.

 

[azcalder]

I'm thinking about ChoBat's RD with its 11 music cuts.

C&B had 11 at Skate America, then were down to eight at NHK Trophy. Today their ISU Bio lists seven. They've dropped four in the middle.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

It's really too bad there isn't some kind of international music licensing system that would work for skating and gymnastics (and freestyle skiing?). I suppose it would be impossible to cover all platforms and all artists and all jurisdictions, however.

 

[Aceon6]

It's really too bad there isn't some kind of international music licensing system that would work for skating and gymnastics (and freestyle skiing?). I suppose it would be impossible to cover all platforms and all artists and all jurisdictions, however.

I think they have it backwards. Skating, gym, freestyle and anything else involving music should set up a purchase pool and notify publishers that their artists would get $X for music submitted to the pool and $Y for every person/team choosing that music. Then, there’d be at least some music pre-cleared, making it easier for athletes who aren’t in a position to request and get clearance.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

I think they have it backwards. Skating, gym, freestyle and anything else involving music should set up a purchase pool and notify publishers that their artists would get $X for music submitted to the pool and $Y for every person/team choosing that music. Then, there’d be at least some music pre-cleared, making it easier for athletes who aren’t in a position to request and get clearance.

That’s a great idea.

 

[Karen-W]

I think they have it backwards. Skating, gym, freestyle and anything else involving music should set up a purchase pool and notify publishers that their artists would get $X for music submitted to the pool and $Y for every person/team choosing that music. Then, there’d be at least some music pre-cleared, making it easier for athletes who aren’t in a position to request and get clearance.

Equestrian dressage and synchro swimming also use music for their programs - maybe the IOC should work with all of these int'l sports feds to support the athletes who need music clearance rights every season and not just at the Olympics when they become the IOC's cash cows.

 

[Kateri]

Equestrian dressage and synchro swimming also use music for their programs - maybe the IOC should work with all of these int'l sports feds to support the athletes who need music clearance rights every season and not just at the Olympics when they become the IOC's cash cows.

I don't really follow gymnastics, but I know some people here do - that has the interesting feature that women use music for their floor routines, but men don't. If women are required to use music (are they?) and men aren't, is that an equality issue, if music becomes expensive?

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

I don't really follow gymnastics, but I know some people here do - that has the interesting feature that women use music for their floor routines, but men don't. If women are required to use music (are they?) and men aren't, is that an equality issue, if music becomes expensive?

Gymnastics is weird in that, unlike figure skating, the people who make the rules for the men and the women are completely separate. Only women make up for the rules for women's gymnastics so I'd guess that they don't particularly take parity/equality into consideration. I'd make the men to perform to music if it were up to me.

 

[viennese]

It's weird how this issue didn't come up when skaters used movie soundtracks with orchestral scores.

You didn't hear about the composer and arranger for Gladiator or Last of the Mohicans when their music was used at the Olympics or Worlds.

 

[tony]

It's weird how this issue didn't come up when skaters used movie soundtracks with orchestral scores.

You didn't hear about the composer and arranger for Gladiator or Last of the Mohicans when their music was used at the Olympics or Worlds.

This isn't coming out of nowhere, though. There's just more technology these days to easily identify where music is being used that is copyrighted. I think almost everyone here forgot about Kevin Reynolds' situation in late 2018, where he was notified right before NHK Trophy that he couldn't use the free skate music he had choreographed for the year (and already skated elsewhere, I'm fairly certain). He had to come up with a different program in about a weekend's time IIRC.

Also, this is just a general statement for the thread- it's not 'oh poor skaters, they are just picking on them'. Instagram and Facebook have technologies built in where if you post a story or video in general with copyrighted music, it will remove it and tell you so. It's picking on everyone. Youtube obviously has the same technology and there are some videos that I cannot upload at all because of copyrights- all countries are banned from using certain pieces, and some aren't even that well-known.

 

[Sylvia]

I think almost everyone here forgot about Kevin Reynolds' situation in late 2018, where he was notified right before NHK Trophy that he couldn't use the free skate music he had choreographed for the year (and already skated elsewhere, I'm fairly certain). He had to come up with a different program in about a weekend's time IIRC.

Oct. 31, 2018 GSD thread:

Kevin Reynolds' music copyright problem (is there a precedent for this?)

Starting a new thread from Tony's post in Canadian Men's news because this last-minute development makes me :mad: & :confused: (how has this not happened before?): Kevin Reynolds is reporting due to a dispute about the rights to his free skate music, he has to get rid of it and come up with...

www.fsuniverse.net

 

[viennese]

This isn't coming out of nowhere, though. There's just more technology these days to easily identify where music is being used that is copyrighted. I think almost everyone here forgot about Kevin Reynolds' situation in late 2018, where he was notified right before NHK Trophy that he couldn't use the free skate music he had choreographed for the year (and already skated elsewhere, I'm fairly certain). He had to come up with a different program in about a weekend's time IIRC.

Also, this is just a general statement for the thread- it's not 'oh poor skaters, they are just picking on them'. Instagram and Facebook have technologies built in where if you post a story or video in general with copyrighted music, it will remove it and tell you so. It's picking on everyone. Youtube obviously has the same technology and there are some videos that I cannot upload at all because of copyrights- all countries are banned from using certain pieces, and some aren't even that well-known.

I had forgotten about Kevin Reynolds music issue

 

[Yehudi]

music is also less centralized than in the past. Back then, you were dealing mostly with a handful of big labels. Now we have a lot of smaller labels or artists (like Megan Thee Stallion) self releasing or the music rights going to an individual.

ETA: it’s not just artistic sports dealing with this. There’s a reason you don’t see the Muppet Babies on streaming and, for the longest time, you didn’t see the Drew Carrey show or the Muppet show.

 

[floridaice]

Article in Slate about this: Music use in Sports

 

[Sylvia]

Thank you, @floridaice! Excerpts from Talia Barrington's 11/30/24 Slate.com article:

If you’ve wondered why you can watch other sports streaming long after they took place, but in recent years can’t catch up on “artistic” sports—figure skating, gymnastics, artistic (formerly synchronized) swimming, cheer, ballroom dance, competitive dance—beyond a day or so, this is why. Unlike contact sports, those played on a field, track, or court, these sports rely on music to string together required elements and engage audiences—and music copyright is a minefield. Nearly everyone I spoke to, from music-rights lawyers to entry-level coaches, used the words gray area at least once. While not officially his area of expertise, William Tran, a figure skating judge and television production lawyer, has found himself being asked by panicked skaters and skating officials alike how it all works. Is it only elite athletes who should worry? Can local clubs still use music in their annual children’s shows? Is it a bad idea for athletes to post their performances to social media? How does an individual even get access to music rights?
Tran told me just how complicated it all is: Each song can potentially have dozens of rights holders, which include the artists, the writers, and the label. Each one of these must sign off on the use of a song. To make it more confusing, there are different layers of rights depending on how you plan to use the music.

To add to the headache, each of these rights can cost thousands of dollars.
“I think most people don’t understand that figure skaters, we don’t make money performing,” Frazier said. Except for small amounts of prize money for the elite few who rise to the top, unlike sports such as the NFL, there’s no signing bonus that offsets the years of investment. Adding music-rights costs to training and travel expenses is, for many, just not feasible.

Tran and others I spoke to say that even with these added protections, athletes could remain at risk. The real solution will be for Congress to pass an amendment to exempt amateur sports (which accounts for all Olympic sports, among others) from U.S copyright law. And this would still only cover athletes competing in the U.S., albeit one of the most litigious countries when it comes to music copyright violations. But that could take years, and for now, many are left without a clear path forward for sports enjoyed by millions at all levels of accomplishment.

 

[Rob]

music is also less centralized than in the past. Back then, you were dealing mostly with a handful of big labels. Now we have a lot of smaller labels or artists (like Megan Thee Stallion) self releasing or the music rights going to an individual.

ETA: it’s not just artistic sports dealing with this. There’s a reason you don’t see the Muppet Babies on streaming and, for the longest time, you didn’t see the Drew Carrey show or the Muppet show.

I think this is why things changed. Skaters likely thought that ISU, USFSA, TV broadcasters, arenas had the appropriate catalog licenses. But even if those entities pay ASCAP/BMI fees, it won’t cover indie music or music licensed through other PROs and it won’t cover synchronization or mechanical rights. Skaters did not know this. Also, Elton John can afford to be tickled pink that Nathan Chen used his music. Indie artists need that income.

Maybe this will result in fewer sad female singers and more Malagueña’s, Carmen’s, and Turandots.

 

[Sylvia]

Maybe this will result in fewer sad female singers and more Malagueña’s, Carmen’s, and Turandots.

Haguenauer disagrees - another Slate.com article excerpt:

A quick fix, some have suggested, would be for athletes to just use classical music, which, when not fully in the public domain, often has fewer—likely less litigious—rights holders. Romain Haguenauer, coach to the 2018 and 2022 world and Olympic ice dance champions, said that if figure skating had to stop using popular music, it would be “catastrophic.”
“I think modern music is good for the audience, and especially for younger fans who can relate more to Beyoncé than [the opera] Carmen,” Haguenauer said. “If that would have to change, it’s like we will go back to the past. And that’s never good for sport.”

 

[MacMadame]

Equestrian dressage and synchro swimming also use music for their programs - maybe the IOC should work with all of these int'l sports feds to support the athletes who need music clearance rights every season and not just at the Olympics when they become the IOC's cash cows.

Whether or not the IOC does this, I am disgusted with the ISU (and the bigger NGBs) for throwing this back on the skaters. They make money off these broadcasts and should totally use some of it to make sure the necessary rights are secured.

 

[DreamSkates]

Artists should be suing if their music is being used without them being compensated. I don't like what Jackie seems to be implying here.

Not every musician or band may have the funds to hire a lawyer for a law suit. It’s not cheap.

 

[DreamSkates]

Whether or not the IOC does this, I am disgusted with the ISU (and the bigger NGBs) for throwing this back on the skaters. They make money off these broadcasts and should totally use some of it to make sure the necessary rights are secured.

That could result in skater’s using big name artists rather than covers. Big difference in expense of licensing.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Not every musician or band may have the funds to hire a lawyer for a law suit. It’s not cheap.

Overedge's point was that it's inappropriate to blame artists who sue, not that every artist has the ability to sue. I think that is clear if you read the thread referenced.

 

[DreamSkates]

Overedge's point was that it's inappropriate to blame artists who sue, not that every artist has the ability to sue. I think that is clear if you read the thread referenced.

Good clarification.

 

[manhn]

Can an artist allow one skater to use their music but disallow another skater who is lower ranked and “won’t do it justice”?

How will this work for next season with the aughts party theme? They can’t skate to a classical piece.

 

[emason]

Not skating, but I remember back in 1992 when Eliot Feld choreographed a piece to Four Last Songs by Richard Strauss, assuming, wrongly as it turned out, that he would have no trouble getting the rights. Two weeks before the piece’s premiere Feld was refused the rights by the Strauss estate. I was at opening night and saw the piece performed without the music. It was the dance event of the season.

 

[Colonel Green]

Can an artist allow one skater to use their music but disallow another skater who is lower ranked and “won’t do it justice”?

Yes, in theory.

 

[Simone411]

Can an artist allow one skater to use their music but disallow another skater who is lower ranked and “won’t do it justice”?

How will this work for next season with the aughts party theme? They can’t skate to a classical piece.

I remember when I first opened up an account with YouTube that I had uploaded Michelle Kwan's program from 2003 Worlds. Mind you, it's been several years ago. Michelle had used the music, Aranjuez. I imagine most of us fans know that.

I remember I began receiving several posts where a lot of people were so excited because they could watch her program with the music again. Apparently, years before I had my YouTube channel, the artist, Joaquin Rodrigo, contacted YouTube about it. YouTube had to delete the music on several fan's YouTube channels and all you could watch was Michelle skating with no music. I remember I received 35,000,000 views and everyone was so excited.

However, there was a video I uploaded of Yuka Sato at the 1995 Vail Skating Festival where YouTube did delete the music. It's not that exciting to just watch the skater without the music, but it happened because of copyright issues. When YouTube deleted the interview with Michelle, Tara, Elvis and Todd because of music copyright, I decided to delete my channel because I didn't wish to get in trouble.

Lately, I have found that Michelle's music, Aranjuez, for her FS at 2003 Worlds hasn't been deleted on some of the fan's YouTube channels. I wish them good luck because they all now take a risk with uploading skating videos on YouTube.

I don't know how this will work with the skaters, but I wish them the best.

 

[MacMadame]

That could result in skater’s using big name artists rather than covers. Big difference in expense of licensing.

Not if either artist is covered by the regular "cover everything" licenses. Also, most of the time when covers are used, it's not a licensing thing as this happened all the time before licensing was an issue. It's because the covers are easier to skate to for some reason (slower, clearer beat, etc.).

Yes, in theory.

It's not necessarily exactly the same but we have an instance mentioned above where an artistic allowed his music to be used by one elite skater but not another because of the editing of the pieces.

 

[KCC]

Anyone know how dance competitions deal with the the music rights? I see a ton of old competitions on my Facebook feeds, most of which look like they were recorded by amateurs.

 

[overedge]

ETA: it’s not just artistic sports dealing with this. There’s a reason you don’t see the Muppet Babies on streaming and, for the longest time, you didn’t see the Drew Carrey show or the Muppet show.

Although Murphy Brown was one of the most popular TV series of the 80s/90s, apparently it will never be released on DVD or streamed because the music rights (mostly to the songs that Murphy sang so badly ) are so expensive. Directors and producers of music-related documentaries are having the same problem.