Misty Copeland of American Ballet Theater

[aftershocks]

^^ Hmmm, it seems to me you are genuinely confused about the entire topic, @ballettmaus. Of course there are all kinds of prejudices and of course discrimination in ballet regarding body type. But you are mixing everything up apparently in an effort to try and understand what makes Misty Copeland's promotion all that unique. Of course, it shouldn't have to be that unique, but it is for very clear reasons. Aside from that, sure we can discuss all kinds of prejudices in general in the world of dance, and figure skating too!

 

[IceAlisa]

Par for the course that Copeland's technique must be carefully scrutinized to the nth degree. OTOH, this thread is probably very revealing in ways that are annoying, yet somehow unsurprising.

Someone's technique is carefully scrutinized to the 9th degree? On FSU? INCONCEIVABLE!!!!

You asked for specifics about Misty's technical flaws and now you are complaining when we obliged? Be careful what you wish for...

Your behavior on this thread is not surprising, that much is true.

 

[ballettmaus]

^^ Hmmm, it seems to me you are genuinely confused about the entire topic,

How can I be confused about something I was wondering about?

I do find her promotion unique and quite the accomplishment, just not for the reason society wants me to find it unique for. She was born African American but she wasn't born a dancer and to get into a professional company after only 4 years of dancing is still knocking me off my feet. If she hadn't worked her behind off, she wouldn't have gotten in, no matter what her skin color had been. And if she hadn't continued to work hard and probably harder than anyone she was dancing with, she wouldn't have climbed up the ranks, no matter her skin color. She certainly is proof that no one should be discouraged from pursuing their dream, no matter what people say, and I hope she will be a role model to girls (and boys) of all skin color and body type.

 

[MarieM]

I really don't care. I am wondering why ABT is choosing this ballet to promote her : to garner money and attention probably.


It's not is we've had good ballerinas lately in France ... Léonore Baulac maybe, but I don't like her that much.
But so far, we have at least two very promising male. The most promising is François ALU (that reminds me of Patrick DUPONT or Leriche) and Arthur Allart (know before as Pierre Arthur Raveau, do not ask me why he changed his name.) who is more of a romantic dancer.
Alu is the first dancer that is flamboyant, something not seen in POB since Lefèvre took the reigns. She has destroyed everything that Noureev and Bessi created in the late eighties, not chosing the most amazing dancer but the more adept to modern dance.
Poor Millepied has a lot to do, considering she even did her best to put everyone in the Etoile position not letting him have a say ...

 

[Artistic Skaters]

Not about Misty Copeland, but since other dancers are being discussed -

*** 26 Black Female Choreographers And Dancers You Should Know :

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/...rapher-dancer_n_7716662.html?utm_hp_ref=dance

 

[Spun Silver]

I find it disingenuous to minimize Copeland's struggles with the fouettes. They are one of a small number of set-pieces or highlights in classical ballets, the Rose Adagio being another, that every informed fan knows about and looks forward to. Every Odile's fouette's are going to be examined, every Aurora's Rose Adagio is going to be scrutinized. it's not uncommon for ballerinas to struggle with those sections but they are usually called out for it if they fail. Has Copeland managed them in other performances? It would be odd to cast someone in Swan Lake who simply cannot execute them.

A few decades ago Heather Watts's promotion to principal dancer at NYC Ballet was not universally appreciated. She had an unclassical body, not great feet, line, or turnout IIRC, and was not technically dazzling in any way. Where she excelled was in Balanchine's modernist, quirky ballets like Stravinsky Violin Concerto and Rubies. Put her in something romantic or classical, say Emeralds or Apollo -- which happened a lot because she was Peter Martins's girlfriend --and she invited very unfavorable comparisons. She had a big following because she WAS different, and because she developed a nice partnership with Jock Soto. But she was always controversial. Some of the posts here seem to be saying something similar about Copeland. She has an unconventional body; she is better in modern than classical ballets; and she's getting roles she otherwise might not for political reasons. Of course race adds another dimension to Copeland's history. But a lot of it is just how the ballet world is.
Watts: https://images.search.yahoo.com/ima...rumb=a5Lnbq/iuDE&fr=yfp-hrtab-901&fr2=piv-web

Plus, the whole art form is focused on perfection of technique, turning the flawed, mortal human body into an instrument of the gods. Not of course that everyone realizes that aim, or approaches it in precisely the same way. But it's inherent to the art form. Technique matters.

 

[IceAlisa]

I haven't seen a post where Misty's body was discussed in a negative light--it IS unconventional in its muscularity but her limbs are long and she can achieve beautiful positions. I would (and do) take issue with short limbed ballet dancers. And one with a sub-standard turn out would elicit all kinds of and from me.

Without even looking, I would guess I would not like Watts.

 

[aftershocks]

Misty's limbs are long, but her overall height is short. I've not been regularly getting back here that often lately to schmooze and debate and write my lengthy points-of-view, as life has a way of happening.

Truthfully, everyone can and will think and perceive as they wish. It's often pointless to carry on conversations when we are talking past each other and/ or confusing what each other are saying because of seeing things from only our own individual rigid perspectives. Actually, I am seeing and understanding a lot of what people are saying, and there are a number of things being discussed, some of which are being confused. But if anyone is set on thinking that I am engaging in "bad behavior" in this thread, then I really doubt you care to read or truly understand what I'm saying anyway. You see "aftershocks," and it's over already! Yep, that aftershocks, why bother reading or listening! Oh well, sorry if I ever stepped on your toes and you can't forget the pain.

Life is way too short to get caught up in talking past each other. I asked the question about what you find lacking in Misty's technique because I do want to hear what it is those who are scrutinizing her technique have to say. And I do think there is a lot of deeper scrutiny on Misty's technique than I've ever seen discussed before about a principal ballerina. As I said, read Misty's book. Ballerinas and indeed figure skaters are always striving for perfection. It is a never-ending process. In regard to Misty, she discusses in her book how Kevin felt she needed to work on her port de bras, so indeed yes, she is not perfect. But what makes her special, is the way she works so hard and has been determined to succeed, and never gives up.

If all some of you get from my posts is that I am engaging in bad behavior, then it doesn't really matter what I think, eh? Neither does it matter what any of us think vs how Misty will continue to succeed and achieve her goals in life. I've learned a lot from finding out about Misty Copeland and becoming acquainted with her story.

In any case, I think it's disingenuous to dismiss the relevance and significance of Misty being a woman of color promoted to principal ballerina at a top ballet company. It rarely happens, but I think there are certainly a number of other accomplished black ballerinas who deserved/ deserve to reach that level. It's sort of similar to Halle Berry receiving the Oscar, when definitely there have been other very accomplished black actresses who just as much or more deserved to receive it as well, but didn't.

Yes, politics is always involved in practically every endeavor, but Misty's grit and determination came before the politics. Not everyone has the mindset to succeed when they have to deal with direct or subtle discrimination. There is nothing wrong with discussing views on Misty's technique. It's just that a lot of stuff is being discussed and confused in this thread. I too am interested in the issue of the fouettes, because it was touched on indirectly in Misty's book when she was competing as a teenager at one of her first competitions. Her dance teacher reduced the number of fouettes because she was having trouble with them. But there was no further mention of fouettes in her book as discussion of her career progressed. This would be a good question to bring up with Misty if I had the chance to attend a future speaking engagement she might give. Drat that I don't live in New York anymore.

Have a great rest of the summer everyone and enjoy the upcoming new season of figure skating!

 

[IceAlisa]

Just because you haven't seen a principal dancer taken apart, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

 

[MarieM]

And believe me, a lot of principle dancer are taken apart a lot. More than a lot. Like an obsession indeed.

 

[Rob]

And it's nothing new. We used to rip on this ABT female principal all the time back in the olden days:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKl6dT6Uju4

 

[IceAlisa]

@kwanfan1818 is the other Mariinsky dancer on maternity leave Maria Shirinkina? She just returned to work. I kept thinking who it could be.

Oh and to return to the topic, I thought Halle Berry deserved her Oscar for her work in Monster Ball. It was first rate, to quote Dick Button.

And on a purely shallow note, her Oscar gown was to die for, the most beautiful ever, still unsurpassed. She looked like a goddess.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Tereshkina -- maybe her second? -- and Somova (her first) were out as well when Skorik, a nervous dancer who needed to be developed slowly, first was pushed so hard. There were a lot of roles to be filled, and Fateev semed to think Skorik should do them all, especially on tour.

ETA: And maybe Osmolkina.

 

[IceAlisa]

I am so happy for them to be able to have kids and come back to work!

 

[kwanfan1818]

Not to mention Maxim Marinin's (common-law?) wife, Natalia Somova, a star of the Stanislavsky Ballet, who has at least two with Marinin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AI6M743yMs

(She comes in at about the 3 1/2-minute mark.)

 

[IceAlisa]

Not to mention Maxim Marinin's (common-law?) wife, Natalia Somova, a star of the Stanislavsky Ballet, who has at least two with Marinin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AI6M743yMs

(She comes in at about the 3 1/2-minute mark.)

OMG her arms!

 

[aftershocks]

... I thought Halle Berry deserved her Oscar for her work in Monster Ball. It was first rate, to quote Dick Button.

And on a purely shallow note, her Oscar gown was to die for, the most beautiful ever, still unsurpassed. She looked like a goddess.

Halle Berry is gorgeous and she's worked very hard to improve over her entire career (not unlike Misty Copeland), and she deserves her every success. Halle's Oscar acceptance speech and her reaction to winning is priceless, memorable, an iconic and genuine moment in time. Plus Halle is one of many accomplished achievers who hail from Cleveland, OH! Angela Bassett deserved to win the Oscar (but didn't) for her role as Tina Turner, and Diana Ross was also great in her role as Billie Holiday, and I thought Ross should have won over Liza Minnelli. There are certainly many other actors and actresses of all backgrounds who have deserved to win Academy Awards and didn't, and of course some who were not even nominated and deserved to be in the running, such as David Oyelowo as Martin Luther King, Jr in Selma, as well as the director of Selma, Ava DuVernay.

As far as ripping into principal ballerinas and figure skaters for that matter, oh yep, it's so easy to sit back and criticize. While thoughtful, constructive criticism is not a bad thing and expression of likes and dislikes is to be expected, I think snarky trashing and/or haughty nose-in-the-air taking apart is rather useless, but yes, not uncommon. I definitely take issue with some of the snarkier put-downs in this thread regarding Misty. However, to each their own. OTOH, it can be interesting to debate different styles and abilities, as well as the strengths and weaknesses of dancers (and figure skaters). In fact, I think there is a lot to be said regarding technical issues in dancing and in figure skating. Ballet evolved over many more centuries than figure skating, and is much more codified in terms of technique. Ballet barre is essential to developing and maintaining technique as a dancer. In figure skating, the sport lost sight of the fundamental importance of practicing figures in order to develop and maintain stellar technique.

... Without even looking, I would guess I would not like Watts.

Heather Watts was not one of my favorite ballerinas, but she's quite memorable and she had a very distinctive on-stage presence. She was Peter Martins' main squeeze for a number of years before he moved on to dating and marrying Darci Kistler. I did enjoy many of Watts' performances over the years, but she never captivated me like Suzanne Farrell, Gelsey Kirkland, Sylvie Guillem, and Merrill Ashley (and Tanaquil LeClerq, in the performance videos I've seen of her). Some clips of Watts on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWTnqQde6TY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yANL4KDKSI0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Yd8lmwpBjI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJGVmuujni8

 

[VGThuy]

As amazing as Bassett was as Tina Turner, I agreed with the Academy when they gave the Oscar to Holly Hunter for The Piano and who arguably should have won for Broadcast News years before that. As for Diana Ross vs. Liza Minelli, Cabaret is one of my favorite movie musicals, and one I didn't mind deviating from the source material, and I thought Liza was a huge part of its success. I thought she was enchanting in it, and think Liza is a much better actress than people give credit for (better than her singing actually) and it's no surprise she worked steadily in films, Broadway, and television while Ross mostly kept to singing after The Wiz and Mahogany.

As for Selma, I definitely thought Ava Duvernay deserved a Best Director nomination as I loved her work in it. I would have nominated her earlier work, Middle of Nowhere, for an award as well. However, as for David Oyelowo, I can see an argument for his nomination but I would have argued for Jake Gyllenhaal's (Nightcrawler) and Ralph Fiennes' (Grand Budapest Hotel) inclusion before I'd argue for Oyelowo's.

 

[IceAlisa]

Holy thread drift, Batman. My fault entirely, I ran with the Halle Berry thing.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I don't see why she can't be a Principle Dancer, IF she sticks to modern, abstract pieces, which she is very good at, or classical pieces in which she can be typecast properly, without making it look like "affirmative action" at works.

Just like Halle Berry can not play a role of Queen Elizabeth, and Meryl Steep can't be cast to play Condoleezza Rice, a black dancer would look odd dancing a role of White Swan in Swan lake..... unless the whole ballet's production setting is properly changed like "Carmen" to "Carmen Jones".

Copeland is a joy to watch, lots of energy and expression...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeNA6rhVw9U

 

[IceAlisa]

So then you don't think Yuan Yuan Tan should dance Tatiana in John Cranko's Onegin because she is Asian? I will tell you that she was one of my favorite Tatianas ever.

 

[Jimena]

Yes, because playing Condoleezza Rice and Queen Elizabeth is exactly the same as dancing the White Swan.

Sorry, but that's ridiculous.

 

[IceAlisa]

So what's with all the white girls dancing La Bayadère? Takes place in India, you know.

 

[Tinami Amori]

So what's with all the white girls dancing La Bayadère? Takes place in India, you know.

Oy... anthropomorphic features for a stage performance which portray an East-Indian female can easily be arranged for stage for a caucasian, given east indians are original caucasians. Few make-up is required.

To make a female with congoid features to look like an "indian concubine" in a European ballet, will take a lot of paint...... .

 

[IceAlisa]

They have blondes dancing Nikiya. No one bats an eye.

 

[Tinami Amori]

They have blondes dancing Nikiya. No one bats an eye.

It's a European ballet. Originated in Europe, based on "foreign lands" specifics, but still has European history.... not African, and does not include "africa"... As a classic, it should remain as "designed".

If I was an African-origin great talent, of any sort, i would not try to "break into the white world". Breaking into the "white world" is not an accomplishment. Building you OWN world, based on YOUR origin, is a route for people with talent and abilities. Stage and design a ballet about YOUR OWN history, your own country of origin, your OWN mythology..... and bring the same quality dancers and production as "old world European".

Who is stopping african-origin talented dancers and producers to turn into ballet such subjects as Othello, Porgy and Beth, Uncle Rymouth tales, Roots, Zulu Spear, and 100 OF YEARS of african history, struggle, mythology and etc? SKY IS THE LIMIT!

I am a jew from russian, came to usa in the 1970's, as a teenager..... my effing politically correct Berkeley based high-school wanted to cast me as a character into "Our Town" and wanted to make one of the characters "polish" to suite my accent and appearance..... I was so angry, I almost ran away..... If one wants to "accommodate my culture"...... then attenmpt to produce a high-school play by Chekhov or Sholom Alkehem (Tevya, the Milkman)......... Dont blimey try to fit me into "american anglo-saxon village"...... give me my own space..... for "my kind".

Same with african-origin people..... don't try to break into "white-man's territory".... LOVE YOUR OWN enough to dance it on stage, your mythology, your history, your stories.

 

[IceAlisa]

But what if you find ballet beautiful and are built for it and are good at it? Do you still have to quit and look for your own folk dancing because of your skin color? Yes, ballet is a traditionally a "white world" but I am happy to see talented people of other races enter it.

This is Kimin Kim, a Korean who dances for the Mariinsky, btw, doing DQ with all kinds of Spanish flair: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZurlQ15CUY

I think this is

Should he just stick to Arirang?

 

[MarieM]

The problem here is that she is not good at it at all actually. And a principle can also be a principle on other pieces than Classical ballet. Ask Marie Agnès Gillot who does mainly modern pieces and was promoted because of them.
MA Gillot doesn't do the classical pieces now, by choice right. So should Coppeland because I'm sorry, but she sucks at them.

 

[Jimena]

I don't have a problem with saying Copeland doesn't have the technique to pull off the classics. I have a ginormous problem with people saying that she shouldn't do them because it's a white European art form.

Ballet is universal. Get over it.

 

[emason]

Should I post in this thread or not? Oh, what the Hell.

I went to 5 performances at ABT's recently concluded spring season: 3 Giselles, 1 Sleeping Beauty, and 1 Cinderella. At 4 of these performances MC danced supporting roles. My opinion (not fact) based on what I saw:

Giselle #1 - she did Peasant Pas de Deux with Craig Salstein. Adequate, nothing terrible, but nothing exciting or memorable either.

Giselle #3 - assistant Wili Zulma. By far the worst of her performances. As I think I posted over in the ballet thread, she had the most ungainly awkward entrance I have ever seen. She literally lumbered onto the stage.

Sleeping Beauty - Princess Florine. She gets a pass on this since she was partnered by one of the worst Bluebirds I have ever seen, some corps boy having a very off night. He was such a train wreck, I really couldn't concentrate on her. She gets kudos just for making it through.

Cinderella - the Summer Fairy. This was the best of her performances. Lots of energy, attack and so on. The big problem, however, is that the words "ensemble player" are not in MC's vocabulary. The other 3 fairies were of a piece in terms of style, line, story-telling and so on. MC, on the other hand, was just showboating, selling herself. It was like she was in a different ballet from everyone else.

I feel she is much better in modern pieces, and I think she should stay away from classical. I think she'd be better off in a different company.