ISU World Standings Have Been Updated

[PairSkater12345]

The consequences of these standings aren’t as immediate as the TEB decision. I truly doubt there will be a Grand Prix series in 2020.

I don't know about that not many people go to them anyway.......

 

[kwanfan1818]

And as I’ve tried to demonstrate, it wasn’t likely to shift the standings all that much.

I agree: there weren't many people on the cusp of Top 24 who were scheduled for Worlds who could have earned enough (mostly incremental) points to make it. I think Lauriault/LeGac

As far as making one group or another or starting orders for GP's, so much depends on what happens (or doesn't happen) in the Fall. Plus the number of participants at championships will be hard to predict, especially the longer it lasts.

 

[jlai]

THe standings are ridiculous but I think tennis rankings are just as nuts.

 

[overedge]

The assumptions are bast on the fairest measurement the ISU has. Worlds get canceled.....you can't change the process.
You can't add your fav to the formula. Your preference doesn't matter. What matters is the consistency in measuring the standings. As Al Davis said "Just Win BABY".

I must have missed the part in my post where I complained that my favorites got ripped off. I'm not complaining as a disgruntled fan, because that's not why I think the ratings are bogus. Why don't you try reading the posts you respond to?

Of course the process can be changed. The ISU isn't accountable to anyone other than itself for those ratings. And if the major points-earning event of the year is cancelled, the process should be adjusted to account for that.

 

[tony]

I must have missed the part in my post where I complained that my favorites got ripped off. I'm not complaining as a disgruntled fan, because I'm not. Why don't you try reading the posts you respond to?

Of course you can change the process. The ISU isn't accountable to anyone other than itself for those ratings. And if the major points-earning event of the year is cancelled, the process should be adjusted to account for that.

I don't get what order you expected, because even with Worlds it probably wouldn't have happened. Kihira was going to remain #1 regardless of whether she even showed up to Worlds. The composition of the top 18 wasn't likely to change at all. If Hanyu finished 2nd behind Chen at Worlds, he's still #1. Samarin would've maybe dropped from 2nd to 6th or 7th. Maybe. But he's still a top 10 skater. Sui/Han would've only been able to move up to a maximum of 3rd, maybe even just 4th with a win. Papadakis/Cizeron were going to stay behind Guignard/Fabbri even if they won and G/F finished 8th. Etc.

 

[VGThuy]

I’m not quite getting what people are complaining about nor do I see anybody offering any viable “solutions” to this “problem”. I mean there was always an air of ridiculousness to the rankings even with Worlds; so why stop now?

 

[mjb52]

I thought we were all just joking around, most people didn't even know they existed before this thread.

 

[PairSkater12345]

I must have missed the part in my post where I complained that my favorites got ripped off. I'm not complaining as a disgruntled fan, because that's not why I think the ratings are bogus. Why don't you try reading the posts you respond to?

Of course the process can be changed. The ISU isn't accountable to anyone other than itself for those ratings. And if the major points-earning event of the year is cancelled, the process should be adjusted to account for that.

There is no language in the rules to make the change you suggest. Can't change rules on the fly. Requires member votes and a protocol. ISU is a member organization that's accountable to it's members.

 

[Vagabond]

I thought we were all just joking around, most people didn't even know they existed before this thread.

The original poster did call them silly, and rightly so.

They are silly in the way they are determined, and they are silly in the way they are applied.

(There is no need to use them in determining starting orders in the SP/SD because the Tech Panel and judges are supposed to be judging each program on its own terms, not ranking programs as was done with Ordinals. There is no need to use them to determine Grand Prix seeds and invitations because there are other criteria that can and are used.)

Those who want to take the World Standings seriously might want to start a separate thread, preferably in The Trash Can.

 

[gkelly]

(There is no need to use them in determining starting orders in the SP/SD because the Tech Panel and judges are supposed to be judging each program on its own terms, not ranking programs as was done with Ordinals. There is no need to use them to determine Grand Prix seeds and invitations because there are other criteria that can and are used.)

It was probably broadcasters who wanted the seeding, especially those who don't cover the whole event and wanted the possibility of fitting all the contenders into a manageable timeslot.

(Of course there would always be some exceptions when breakout or comeback skaters who don't have much of a recent international record skate early and skate well.)

 

[AxelAnnie]

I do believe that is a record for being out of step with reality.

What ever they are smokin' I think I need some.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Just out of interest and to see how oh so much the results potentially could've changed, I took the seasons best scores and gave the ladies' skaters those points in order for Worlds:

1. 1200 Kostornaia
2. 1080 Trusova
3. 972 Shcherbakova
4. 875 Kihira
5. 787 You
6. 709 Tennell
7. 638 Bell
8. 574 Miyahara
9. 517 Higuchi
10. 465 Yelim Kim
11. 418 Kurakova
12. 377 Paganini
13. 339 Ryabova
14. 305 Schott
15. 275 Peltonen
16. 247 Kiibus
17. 222 Urushadze
18. 200 Tornaghi
19. 180 Feigin
20. 162 Pineault
21. 146 Busback
22. 131 Meite
23. 118 Craine
24. 106 Leung

Overall Standings would then be:
1. Kihira 4433
2. Kosornaia 3960
3. Trusova 3504
4. Shcherbakova 3498
5. Tennell 3395
6. Miyahara 3267
7. You 2948
[8. Sakamoto 2769]
[9. Zagitova 2666]
10. Bell 2658
[11. Lim 2537]
[12. Samodurova 2414]
[13. Tuktamysheva 2372]
[14. Medvedeva 2192]
15. Higuchi 2191
16. Yelim Kim 2149
17. Ryabova 2073
18. Paganini 1860

The exact same 18 skaters still make up the top 18 in this scenario. My point: I don't think any skater is stressing nearly as much as some of you about not moving from 6th to 2nd on a World Standings list that has absolutely no end of season reward.

Could you do the math where Tennell is ranked first? Since thats where I have her!

 

[kwanfan1818]

There's no way that the last group would have been broken into two unless this was a broadcast issue. At least they haven't done what Skate Canada has done and scheduled a big break between the "earlier" and "later" done.

 

[MacMadame]

I mean there was always an air of ridiculousness to the rankings even with Worlds; so why stop now?

Why not try to fix them? Any ranking system is going to have issues, but other sports seem to do this better. I don't think any system that has the current reigning World Champion, who did all the majors and was undefeated in them, in 4th place ahead of people he's beaten consistently is worth preserving.

 

[VGThuy]

But my point was that there just a lot complaining and calls to cancel the standings for this season even though Tony Wheeler provides that the standings wouldn’t have changed much. It’s fine if we want to tweak it but I still think the reaction is a bit OTT because it was always like this. It’s like people now just noticed.

 

[jlai]

But my point was that there just a lot complaining and calls to cancel the standings for this season even though Tony Wheeler provides that the standings wouldn’t have changed much. It’s fine if we want to tweak it but I still think the reaction is a bit OTT because it was always like this. It’s like people now just noticed.

We are disappointed in not having worlds, so we're expanding on every skating-related conversation till there is something truly worthwhile to talk about.

 

[MacMadame]

It’s like people now just noticed.

I think it's clear they did just notice.

I notice this periodically and every time I do, I find the standings to be ridiculous. If I were a skater who was on the bubble to be invited to a GP event, I would be annoyed. As for the top skaters, if they find them meaningless (which I think they do), why even have them?

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

I thought Bradie's tweet about it was very funny. I'm sure she's not taking it seriously and enjoying the moment.

Eta: maybe it was Instagram. Can't really remember at the moment.

 

[kwanfan1818]

As for the top skaters, if they find them meaningless (which I think they do), why even have them?

They can find them as meaningless as they'd like, but WS points determine starting order (reverse) for GP events and championships, where they could be on the cusp of the penultimate and final group, or, within the final group, whether they skate in the first three or last three.

The skaters who are WS 24 without being Top 24 SB are an even smaller minority now that CS scores count toward the SB list.

 

[tony]

What if the standings looked like this going into Worlds? I used a pretty straight-forward formula that I can get into for those that are interested (it only involves 2019/2020 standings), but it still creates some headaches a little lower down the standings that would have to be worked out. Last column is the actual World Standing prior to Worlds, and the season rank in parenthesis. It doesn't factor junior results, either.

1	Boikova/Kozlovskii	3 (4SR)
2	Sui/Han	4 (2SR)
3	Tarasova/Morozov	1 (5SR)
4	Moore-Towers/Marinaro	5 (3SR)
5	Peng/Jin	2 (1SR)
6	Mishina/Galliamov	13 (6SR)
7	Pavliuchenko/Khodykin	10 (9SR)
8	Cain-Gribble/LeDuc	9 (15SR)
9	Scimeca Knierim/Knierim	15 (19SR)
10	Denney/Frazier	18 (23SR)
11	Efimova/Korovin	16 (20SR)
12	Calalang/Johnson	20 (11SR)
13	Della Monica/Guarise	8 (12SR)
14	Kayne/O'Shea	11 (9SR)
15	Ilyusechkina/Bilodeau	30 (13SR)

 

[MacMadame]

They can find them as meaningless as they'd like, but WS points determine starting order (reverse) for GP events and championships, where they could be on the cusp of the penultimate and final group, or, within the final group, whether they skate in the first three or last three.

The skaters who are WS 24 without being Top 24 SB are an even smaller minority now that CS scores count toward the SB list.

They should use the SB list for everything. Or maybe do a "throw out high and low and average the rest" to determine WS.

 

[Dobre]

But my point was that there just a lot complaining and calls to cancel the standings for this season even though Tony Wheeler provides that the standings wouldn’t have changed much. It’s fine if we want to tweak it but I still think the reaction is a bit OTT because it was always like this. It’s like people now just noticed.

Yes. And I think one of the reasons we see this reaction every year is that people focus a lot on how athletes are doing this season. But the real hit from skipping or missing part of a season often doesn't hit a team in the WS rankings until the following year. (So Chock & Bates and Papadakis & Cizeron sinking in the standings would totally have been understood last year because it was fresh in everyone's mind then how many events they had not done, but then people forget and are shocked when they see teams drop the year afterward. Meanwhile, Guignard & Fabbri had a really terrific season in 2018-19. They medaled at the GPF and Europeans in addition to putting in the time to do more CS events than most teams--during a post Olympic year in which other teams often take more time off than normal. Last year, people wouldn't have been that surprised to see G&F right up there in the standings, but there is a delay in seeing how much all that work and success paid off.

 

[Tahuu]

If Hanyu finished 2nd behind Chen at Worlds, he's still #1.

You probably had forgot that only one championship is counted per season, which may be the reason some top skaters are not interested in doing 4CC. If Hanyu finished 2nd (1080) behind Chen (1200), he'd be 4026 and Chen'd be 4080.

Overall Standings would then be:
1. Kihira 4433
2. Kosornaia 3960
3. Trusova 3504
4. Shcherbakova 3498
5. Tennell 3395
6. Miyahara 3267

Similarly ladies top 6 would have a different order:
1 4206 Rika KIHIRA
2 3267 Satoko MIYAHARA
3 3174 Alexandra TRUSOVA
4 3162 Bradie TENNELL
5 3120 Alena KOSTORNAIA
6 3057 Anna SHCHERBAKOVA

 

[tony]

You probably had forgot that only one championship is counted per season, which may be the reason some top skaters are not interested in doing 4CC. If Hanyu finished 2nd (1080) behind Chen (1200), he'd be 4026 and Chen'd be 4080.



Similarly ladies top 6 would have a different order:
1 4206 Rika KIHIRA
2 3267 Satoko MIYAHARA
3 3174 Alexandra TRUSOVA
4 3162 Bradie TENNELL
5 3120 Alena KOSTORNAIA
6 3057 Anna SHCHERBAKOVA

Yeah, I was absolutely incorrect and thank you for pointing it out. I rushed the math and was canceling out whichever of the two majors in 2019 and 2020 was lower, when it only could have been the 2020 major being replaced by 2020 Worlds points. See below for the full (I think it's right this time ) 18.

 

[tony]

Thanks to @Tahuu for pointing out a replacement points error, this is actually the hypothetical top 18 after Worlds giving the skaters points for placements based on their Seasons Best score ranking:

1 (1) 4206 Rika KIHIRA
2 (7) 3267 Satoko MIYAHARA
3 (4) 3174 Alexandra TRUSOVA
4 (2) 3162 Bradie TENNELL
5 (6) 3120 Alena KOSTORNAIA
6 (3) 3057 Anna SHCHERBAKOVA
7 (5) 2769 Kaori SAKAMOTO
8 (8) 2666 Alina ZAGITOVA
9 (14) 2658 Mariah BELL
10 (9) 2536 Eunsoo LIM
11 (10) 2414 Sofia SAMODUROVA
12 (12) 2399 Young YOU (31 points added)
13 (11) 2372 Elizaveta TUKTAMYSHEVA
14 (13) 2192 Evgenia MEDVEDEVA
15 (15) 1971 Ekaterina RYABOVA (no change in points)
16 (16) 1965 Yelim KIM (no change in points)
17 (17) 1830 Alexia PAGANINI (no change in points)
18 (18) 1674 Wakaba HIGUCHI (no change in points)

And this actually demonstrates an even better example of 'Why are you complaining?' -- Shcherbakova, even with a projected bronze medal, in my example, falls down to 6th. Miyahara, who I put in 8th place in this hypothetical, moves from 7th to 2nd overall. Kostornaia with a win only moves up one spot. Kihira still runs away with it, and the top 18 stay the same-- with mostly no movement aside from Miyahara and Bell, because of their lack of being at 4CC.

In summary, I know people are bored with quarantine/stay at home/whatever you are doing, but I think we were very likely to get a similar thread even if Worlds did take place

 

[antmanb]

I think it's clear they did just notice.

I notice this periodically and every time I do, I find the standings to be ridiculous. If I were a skater who was on the bubble to be invited to a GP event, I would be annoyed. As for the top skaters, if they find them meaningless (which I think they do), why even have them?

You'd be unnecessarily annoyed at this list since it isn't the one that determines GP assignments

As I understand it it's used to determine skater order at some events but not for anything as important as which competitions you get.

 

[Dobre]

As I understand it it's used to determine skater order at some events but not for anything as important as which competitions you get.

???

Unless rules have changed, top 24 on the WS or SB list guarantees a team a berth on the GP. (This year, though, I think I'll just be grateful if organizations are able to host skating competitions of whatever kind, rather than worry about normal logistics).

 

[antmanb]

???

Unless rules have changed, top 24 on the WS or SB list guarantees a team a berth on the GP. (This year, though, I think I'll just be grateful if organizations are able to host skating competitions of whatever kind, rather than worry about normal logistics).

I thought it was just the SB list and finishes at the world championships that determined GP Selection not the world standings list.

 

[kwanfan1818]

You'd be unnecessarily annoyed at this list since it isn't the one that determines GP assignments

Under the current rules, Top 24 SB and Top 24 WS are guaranteed a spot. Most of the time Top 24 SB and Top 24 WS overlap, but there are always a few that get spots only for Top 24 WS. It's now rarer, because CS events count on the SB list. In the past, when there were only senior B's that didn't, there were always a few extra skaters and teams that squeezed into the Top 24 WS because they had four slots worth of WS points, when many of their fellow competitors only had one or two. Also, now that many top skaters go to 4C's and the competition is as competitive and deep as anything but maybe Euro Ladies, the next echelon of skaters who just missed Top 24 SB but earned championship points at 4C's, and who would just make it into Top 24 WS, don't anymore.

 

[antmanb]

I stand corrected

I also still can't get too excited about a world standings list when world championships were cancelled.