ISU to evaluate feasibility of 2020-21 skating season

[Deleted member 221]

Travel bans and quarantine for USA, Russia and China would need to be lifted.

China is already lifted, no? The EU lifted it subject to reciprocal treatment. Quarantines are being lifted daily - e.g., the UK announced today that people from countries subject to quarantine will be able to take a test instead of quarantining.

Come on. Stop being deliberately obtuse. A GP is not a small event by any standard.

You are thinking in the past.

Let's do some rough maths, shall we?
Skaters: 12 x men + 12 x ladies + 20 x ice dancers + 20 x pair skaters = 64 skaters
Coaches: more difficult to calculate but even if we assume a certain level of overlap there will probably still be in the region of 25+ coaches.
Judging panels: 4 x 9 judges = 36 judges
Tech panels: 4 x 3 tech panel members = 12 panel members (may be able to be reduced by one or two)
Tech officials: 2 (most data operators/replay operators are accredited for all four disciplines)

Why do we need 12? Why not try 8? Why not dance in one event and pairs in another? And reduce both to 8?

Why do we need 9 judges? Can we make it with 7? And by eliminating pairs or dance we can further reduce the panel. I bet if we're creative we can get 140 down to ~60.

Nobody is saying - at least I'm not - that the GP can or should move ahead exactly as it was.

 

[alchemy void]

I think creativity is key. I'd like to see USFS think about implementing a virtual competition. It's far from perfect, but it's much better than nothing.

 

[haribobo]

I wish they would hastily announce gp assignments so we can spend the next 3-6 months wuzrobbing until actual skating happens!

 

[Lacey]

You are thinking in the past.



Why do we need 12? Why not try 8? Why not dance in one event and pairs in another? And reduce both to 8?

Why do we need 9 judges? Can we make it with 7? And by eliminating pairs or dance we can further reduce the panel. I bet if we're creative we can get 140 down to ~60.

Just jumped on here at the tail end of this discussion.

I am a tremendous skating fan, but I love all of the events, including dance and pairs. If you eliminate those parts of the competition, where would you put them? I assume you do not intend to ax them entirely?

 

[Yuri]

The media is actively distorting the USA situation by focusing on "cases", as they have been loosely redefined to include even those who test positive as having the antibodies and apparently even those untested via contact tracing, and have ignored the successes of a massive drop in death rates. I cannot link the Johns Hopkins site because it contains the banned word, but in the last 10 days USA deaths have increased from 119.6K (June 25) to 125.2 (July 5), or a 5,600 increase that averages 500-600 deaths per day (some days as few as 200-300). That's less than half of what New York State was reporting in a single day in April, when USA deaths were exceeding 2,500 per day. So I stand by my earlier post that USA death rates are down 70-80% on average, on some days 90%, unless you don't trust the Hopkins website.

What I didn't necessarily foresee in my "crushed the curve" comment was the impact on cases from the riots in almost every USA city by the Black Lives Matter crowd. I was told by the media that C-19 is "woke" and never infects young protestors, but apparently that is NOT the case. Even when many USA doctors said the bigger health issue was not protesting. Why am I not surprised that Houston had a spike when you had 50-60,000 protestors attending the George Floyd state funeral? But we are going to shut down the bars and beaches, as well as sporting events, in response?

Anyone who doesn't think the media is overhyping the USA cases to shut down the economy again, including restarting sporting events, are the ones wearing the tin hats. USA golf tournaments will have spectators starting in 10 days, and NYC will hold an international tennis event (US Open) in early September, albeit without spectators. Let's see how these events go before cancelling the entire ISU calendar of events, please. We will also know by the end of July whether the recent spike in C-19 cases are going to increase the death rates or just show that the USA is gaining herd immunity.

 

[Sylvia]

I think creativity is key. I'd like to see USFS think about implementing a virtual competition. It's far from perfect, but it's much better than nothing.

https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/1280265072254869504

Jason Brown (2019 PFT champ), Tim Dolensky (2018 PFT champ), Camden Pulkinen & Starr Andrews are in the promo video. To be streamed on July 17th 7:00 P.M. ET via USFS' Fan Zone.

 

[TanithandBenFan]

USA golf tournaments will have spectators starting in 10 days, and NYC will hold an international tennis event (US Open) in early September, albeit without spectators. Let's see how these events go before cancelling the entire ISU calendar of events, please. We will also know by the end of July whether the recent spike in C-19 cases are going to increase the death rates or just show that the USA is gaining herd immunity.

The Memorial golf tournament announced today that spectators will not be allowed due to the current situation. I’m glad because I want to keep watching golf on TV, and I don’t want an influx of outsiders having a negative impact on the players/staff.

 

[overedge]

Anyone who doesn't think the media is overhyping the USA cases to shut down the economy again, including restarting sporting events, are the ones wearing the tin hats. USA golf tournaments will have spectators starting in 10 days, and NYC will hold an international tennis event (US Open) in early September, albeit without spectators. Let's see how these events go before cancelling the entire ISU calendar of events, please.

Tennis players and golf players, as far as I know, don't compete side by side breathing closely on each other, as pairs and dance teams do. Tennis and golf are not comparable to competitive skating.

You're also selectively overlooking all the cases of the v*r*s in other sports that have started training and/or competing. Several MLB players have tested positive, and others have dropped out of the season because they don't think it's safe. Several NBA camps have had positive tests. A soccer team just dropped out of the planned MLS tournament because they don't think it's safe either. Two examples of sports that have decided to go ahead (at least for now) are not representative of what's happening in other sports.

 

[alchemy void]

I was told by the media that C-19 is "woke" and never infects young protestors, but apparently that is NOT the case.

That's your delusional interpretation, Karen Yuri.

Even when many USA doctors said the bigger health issue was not protesting. Why am I not surprised that Houston had a spike when you had 50-60,000 protestors attending the George Floyd state funeral? But we are going to shut down the bars and beaches, as well as sporting events, in response?

Not that facts or cited sources matter anymore, but the overwhelming evidence and research is that the protests in the wake of George Floyd's murder across the country did not significantly spread the virus. Being outside, somewhat distanced, and wearing masks likely stunted transmission.

What Minnesotaâs Protests Are Revealing About Covid-19 Spread

After George Floyd’s killing, experts warned that demonstrations could set off new waves of infections. But early testing in Minneapolis tells another story.

www.wired.com

Did Floyd Protests Lead to a Virus Surge? Here’s What We Know (Published 2020)

Epidemiologists have braced for a surge of coronavirus cases. But it has not come yet.

www.nytimes.com

https://abc7.com/protest-coronavirus-spike-numbers-by-state-texas-blm/6288697/

Listen, I actually think an argument can be made that some people here want to shut the season down prematurely and aren't exactly receptive to alternative scenarios. I'm still optimistic that some sort of season can be creatively cobbled together with national and regional events, maybe some smaller internationals, and exploring virtual competitions.

But to blame the lack of your flattened curve on the BLM uprising is lame as hell, and distracts from any valid point your were trying to make.

 

[alchemy void]

https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/1280265072254869504

Jason Brown (2019 PFT champ), Tim Dolensky (2018 PFT champ), Camden Pulkinen & Starr Andrews are in the promo video. To be streamed on July 17th 7:00 P.M. ET via USFS' Fan Zone.

Thank you!

I saw your retweet slightly after I posted.

 

[casken]

But to blame the lack of your flattened curve on the BLM uprising is lame as hell, and distracts from any valid point your were trying to make.

Same with Louis "loving" that post.

 

[misskarne]

Why do we need 12? Why not try 8? Why not dance in one event and pairs in another? And reduce both to 8?

Why do we need 9 judges? Can we make it with 7? And by eliminating pairs or dance we can further reduce the panel. I bet if we're creative we can get 140 down to ~60.

So your answer is to slash the number of skaters that can skate the GP. To remove chances for lower-ranked and smaller-fed skaters to compete internationally (because let's not make bones here, that's exactly who would suffer if we went to 8 from 12 in singles). To treat dance and pairs as lesser and give them fewer opportunities to compete or eliminate altogether.

You don't want a GP, you want a mockery that benefits only the big countries. Unsurprising.

 

[MacMadame]

So your answer is to slash the number of skaters that can skate the GP. To remove chances for lower-ranked and smaller-fed skaters to compete internationally (because let's not make bones here, that's exactly who would suffer if we went to 8 from 12 in singles). To treat dance and pairs as lesser and give them fewer opportunities to compete or eliminate altogether.

You don't want a GP, you want a mockery that benefits only the big countries. Unsurprising.

If the US and Russia can't make it, then that would not happen at all. There would be more opportunities for skaters from smaller EU feds in particular as they are more likely to be able to travel and to allow travel into their countries.

 

[Vagabond]

Facts!

 

[misskarne]

If the US and Russia can't make it, then that would not happen at all. There would be more opportunities for skaters from smaller EU feds in particular as they are more likely to be able to travel and to allow travel into their countries.

EU feds.

If Russia and the US and anyone outside the EU can't make it, we don't have a GP. It would basically be a collection of mini-Euros.

 

[Vagabond]

EU feds.

If Russia and the US and anyone outside the EU can't make it, we don't have a GP. It would basically be a collection of mini-Euros.

I don't expect there to be a Grand Prix this season. Even so, your reasoning only applies best to the Internationaux de France, which is the one event in France. Why would the five other host federations skaters from thgivee EU preference over all other skaters other than their own?

 

[bcash]

The media is actively distorting the USA situation by focusing on "cases", as they have been loosely redefined to include even those who test positive as having the antibodies and apparently even those untested via contact tracing, and have ignored the successes of a massive drop in death rates. I cannot link the Johns Hopkins site because it contains the banned word, but in the last 10 days USA deaths have increased from 119.6K (June 25) to 125.2 (July 5), or a 5,600 increase that averages 500-600 deaths per day (some days as few as 200-300). That's less than half of what New York State was reporting in a single day in April, when USA deaths were exceeding 2,500 per day. So I stand by my earlier post that USA death rates are down 70-80% on average, on some days 90%, unless you don't trust the Hopkins website.

What I didn't necessarily foresee in my "crushed the curve" comment was the impact on cases from the riots in almost every USA city by the Black Lives Matter crowd. I was told by the media that C-19 is "woke" and never infects young protestors, but apparently that is NOT the case. Even when many USA doctors said the bigger health issue was not protesting. Why am I not surprised that Houston had a spike when you had 50-60,000 protestors attending the George Floyd state funeral? But we are going to shut down the bars and beaches, as well as sporting events, in response?

Anyone who doesn't think the media is overhyping the USA cases to shut down the economy again, including restarting sporting events, are the ones wearing the tin hats. USA golf tournaments will have spectators starting in 10 days, and NYC will hold an international tennis event (US Open) in early September, albeit without spectators. Let's see how these events go before cancelling the entire ISU calendar of events, please. We will also know by the end of July whether the recent spike in C-19 cases are going to increase the death rates or just show that the USA is gaining herd immunity.

Decreasing death rate is always welcome, which is acknowledged by all respectable media outlets.

Statistics show that in the U.S., the rate of positive results from testing has been increasing all along, especially in Texas, Florida, and Arizona. (i.e. from 1 positive out of 10 tests to 20 positives out of 100 tests) Clear evidence that infection is far from being brought under control.

And why would you blame rising cases on a funeral where most people were wearing masks rather than on bars and beaches (far from essential activities btw) where people flout distancing rules and do not wear masks? Unless you bought into your Faux information sources and ALT propaganda machines.

 

[ballettmaus]

USA golf tournaments will have spectators starting in 10 days, and NYC will hold an international tennis event (US Open) in early September, albeit without spectators. Let's see how these events go before cancelling the entire ISU calendar of events, please.

When did competitive figure skating go back to being held outdoors?

We will also know by the end of July whether the recent spike in C-19 cases are going to increase the death rates or just show that the USA is gaining herd immunity.

Sweden is not even anywhere close to herd immunity but sure, the US is going to achieve it by the end of July.

 

[Deleted member 221]

So your answer is to slash the number of skaters that can skate the GP. To remove chances for lower-ranked and smaller-fed skaters to compete internationally (because let's not make bones here, that's exactly who would suffer if we went to 8 from 12 in singles). To treat dance and pairs as lesser and give them fewer opportunities to compete or eliminate altogether.

You don't want a GP, you want a mockery that benefits only the big countries. Unsurprising.

None of this is a given. Skaters can do one event each. If big feds can't come, smaller feds will get more opportunity. Pairs is already not at all of the JGP events, and has a lesser number of entrants at Worlds, and yet life has gone on. There are multiple ways to get the event to reasonable numbers that will comply with public health guidelines.

Do we really want to throw out the baby with the bathwater - e.g., if we can't have every federation, then no federations can compete? If we can't have pairs at every event, we should cancel the event altogether? I think most people ACTUALLY AFFECTED BY THE DECISION - which is neither nor you me - would prefer something v. nothing.

While we're psychoanalyzing, I think you can't see skating and so you don't want to anyone else to. I also think your government won't allow your skaters to participate, so you don't want any other countries to participate. How sad and pathetic.

And really so what if the solution is a mini-Euros and a mini-Asian Cup. It's still better than nothing. Don't penalize the skaters who can't come in terms of points/rankings/etc., but give opportunity to those who can and don't blame the rest of the world for the U.S.'s and Russia's failure and Oceania's very reasonable decision to prioritize containment over participation.

 

[Japanfan]

Do we really want to throw out the baby with the bathwater - e.g., if we can't have every federation, then no federations can compete? If we can't have pairs at every event, we should cancel the event altogether? I think most people ACTUALLY AFFECTED BY THE DECISION - which is neither nor you me - would prefer something v. nothing.

I'm not sure if that would be allowed, or be legal. Especially given that GP placements contribute to rankings, and skaters with high rankings would likely drop down.

 

[gkelly]

It seems silly to hold a series designed to culminate in a final, or to assign ranking points based on placements, in a situation where which federations will be able to participate, or which particular skaters depending on where they live and train if it is not in their home countries, is dependent on factors outside their control, which may change suddenly at any point during the "season."

What may make sense is to hold events in locations where it is safe to hold them, open to skaters from other countries from which it is safe to travel to the competition venue.

But let the competition experience, the IJS points and placements at the individual events be the ends in themselves. Don't worry about rankings.

 

[Sylvia]

Alexander Gorshkov on the JGP series:

Горшков: ISU правильно делает, что пытается сохранить юниорское Гран-при

Международный союз конькобежцев (ISU) правильно поступает, что пытается сохранить серию юниорского Гран-при по фигурному катанию сезона-2020/21, заявил РИА... РИА Новости Спорт, 07.07.2020

rsport.ria.ru

Google translated excerpt:

“I have no official information yet. Naturally, ISU should think about plans for the future, they will not close the season. All this will come from the situation with coronavirus. I think they’re doing the right thing in trying to keep the junior series. Athletes are training, and they have to perform somewhere, they must have motivation," Gorshkov said over the phone.

“In previous years, our first stage of the Junior Grand Prix began in the second half of August. What can you do about this situation and the athletes were forced to stay at home. I don’t know how scary or not it is, but this is the situation. Now we’ve started training, and if everything goes well, then the competition, maybe not all, will be held,” he added.

 

[MacMadame]

I'm not sure if that would be allowed, or be legal. Especially given that GP placements contribute to rankings, and skaters with high rankings would likely drop down.

But it doesn't have to. (Also legal and allowed by whom? The ISU decides what's allowed and what's legal.)

The GP events used to just be standalone events and did not lead to a final. We can go back to that for one season without the world ending.

Now I don't anticipate there being any GP events this Fall but not for many of the reasons given here. These reasons are all about "we can't do it like it's been in the recent past so we can't do it." But we don't have to do it like it's "always" been done. If events can be put on with limited fields, no spectators, they are standalone events and don't impact ISU rankings, then I'm all for it.

I think it's the $$ and things like finding a venue that is safe and you can be sure will remain safe a few months from now (so you don't spend all the money for nothing) that will kill the GP, not things like "all the skaters don't have ice yet" or "not all the countries can come to every event" or "it's not fair for ISU rankings."

 

[taz'smum]

Not directly related to skating but indicative

Denmark withdraws from hosting the 2021 Artistic Gymnastics World Championships

The event was scheduled for October 2021.

 

[acraven]

I get the impression Denmark is fairly pessimistic about the near-term prospects for international travel to return to semi-normal. Enough of the museums in Copenhagen have cut their entry fees by 50% that the tourist office has stopped selling the Copenhagen Card, which would be a financially irrational purchase at the moment.

 

[Sylvia]

The Czech federation hopes to host a JGP for the 12th time (Sept. 23-26, 2020 in Ostrava), according to a FB note posted on July 7: https://www.facebook.com/notes/czec...o-ostravy-tentokrát-podvanác/3056313024417702

Stanislav Židek, chairman of the CZE fed. is quoted as saying "we are doing everything to make the Junior Grand Prix take place" (more Google translated excerpts):
"The truth is that the participation of any of the foreign competitors is not confirmed. It will all depend on which country allows official travel and what the conditions will be. There is not only a risk of leaving the country, but also of the return itself, when in many cases they will subsequently have to comply with a 14-day quarantine.
Gradually, restrictions are falling and we are trying and we believe that everything will work out. The number of spectators who can be at these mass events is also rising. But the issue of hotels is still being addressed, we have preliminarily agreed that hotels will be fully opened because of this competition, because we are able to use their capacity 100%, including catering and accompanying services."

 

[manhn]

So, how does it work right now? Say, Hubble and Donohue train in Montreal (unless I missed some news) but are American. Can they visit the EU for some competition? Could they do Skate America and return to Canada?

 

[seabm7]

Not directly related to skating but indicative

Denmark withdraws from hosting the 2021 Artistic Gymnastics World Championships

The event was scheduled for October 2021.

They do not offer Artistic Gymnastics World Championships on Olympic years. It's possible the decision was affected by the postponement of the Tokyo Olympic Games to 2021.

 

[skatfan]

The media is actively distorting the USA situation by focusing on "cases", as they have been loosely redefined to include even those who test positive as having the antibodies and apparently even those untested via contact tracing, and have ignored the successes of a massive drop in death rates. I cannot link the Johns Hopkins site because it contains the banned word, but in the last 10 days USA deaths have increased from 119.6K (June 25) to 125.2 (July 5), or a 5,600 increase that averages 500-600 deaths per day (some days as few as 200-300). That's less than half of what New York State was reporting in a single day in April, when USA deaths were exceeding 2,500 per day. So I stand by my earlier post that USA death rates are down 70-80% on average, on some days 90%, unless you don't trust the Hopkins website.

What I didn't necessarily foresee in my "crushed the curve" comment was the impact on cases from the riots in almost every USA city by the Black Lives Matter crowd. I was told by the media that C-19 is "woke" and never infects young protestors, but apparently that is NOT the case. Even when many USA doctors said the bigger health issue was not protesting. Why am I not surprised that Houston had a spike when you had 50-60,000 protestors attending the George Floyd state funeral? But we are going to shut down the bars and beaches, as well as sporting events, in response?

Anyone who doesn't think the media is overhyping the USA cases to shut down the economy again, including restarting sporting events, are the ones wearing the tin hats. USA golf tournaments will have spectators starting in 10 days, and NYC will hold an international tennis event (US Open) in early September, albeit without spectators. Let's see how these events go before cancelling the entire ISU calendar of events, please. We will also know by the end of July whether the recent spike in C-19 cases are going to increase the death rates or just show that the USA is gaining herd immunity.

wow you are so wrong. I live in AZ and our hospitals are full of COVID patients and we’re running out of medical workers, so it’s not antibodies tests that are the problem. Over 100 dead recorded today, a 32% positive rate for COVID (not antibodies) the highest of any State at the moment. Anybody thinking Phoenix should host anything has a death wish.

Isn’t Worlds supposed to be in Sweden? Their death rate has been 40% percent higher than their neighbors, who arent opening their borders to them. Can they go the EU? It all seems unlikely, and yes, they should plan for now, but I don’t even see how countries will pull off their skating Nationals consistently, let alone an event drawing from five continents.

 

[ballettmaus]

So, how does it work right now? Say, Hubble and Donohue train in Montreal (unless I missed some news) but are American. Can they visit the EU for some competition? Could they do Skate America and return to Canada?

I'm not 100% sure but as far as I know, they go by passport. There's a documentary about the Frankfurt Airport and they did two YKW episodes and the federal police didn't let anyone through who didn't have a German passport or EU passport and a connecting flight.