ninjapirate
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 258
I will be greatly surprised if there is negative GOE for tanos no matter how ugly they are. That sounds like wishful thinking.
ISU rules changes proposals & reaction
- Thread starter clairecloutier
- Start date
I will be greatly surprised if there is negative GOE for tanos no matter how ugly they are. That sounds like wishful thinking.
MAXSwagg
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 1,859
It is not fair to those who have substantive footwork transitions that are choreographed to the music. If you watch Chan, Hanyu, Fernandez, the vast majority of the steps and turns march some aspect of the music down to the note. I can’t think of any woman who does this (and Chan and Fernandez are done so...)so I guess no one is getting cheated there.
thvu
Usova's Apprentice
- Messages
- 8,916
Hanyu is the perfect example of a skater who always packs his programs with difficult transitions that fit the program. I know he's just an extraordinary talent, but he's the epitome of an IJS skater as there are so few compromises.
Vagabond
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 27,065
COP is not new. The criteria for Program Component Scores have been posted in links in this forum many times over the years.
Components with Explanations
hanca
Values her privacy
- Messages
- 12,549
Yes, but the problem is that even the levels are not always very objective measurement. Depending on whether the couple is currently ‘in’ or not, the level can go up or down. The couples who are favourites are often given benefits of doubt and some others are measured with overly strict or picky criteria, which means that both GOE and PCS are very subjective. For example, there would be a huge difference in skills between 1st and 15th, but there wouldn’t be necessarily much difference between 3-7th or between 10-15th. So the results are sometimes a bit random. Very accurate science of careful counting numbers which are awarded very randomly based on many criteria, such as where the couple is from, who their coach is and whether the judge likes them, rather than whether they are good ice dancers.
starrynight
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 3,234
Yes the difference in levels in ice dance is not exactly the same as executing a clean triple flip as opposed to a clean triple toe.
A friend of mine learnt how to rate the different jumps just watching one flight of ladies for the very first time. The average punter could watch ice dance for years and never figure out how a level works (goodness knows I have no idea) especially as the requirements seem to change so very quickly.
hanca
Values her privacy
- Messages
- 12,549
For example, at the Europeans, 2nd, 4th, 6th and 8th place in FD have exactly the same base value of TES. So that means that GOE and PCS makes the difference whether you finish 2nd or 8th. And I am sorry to say it, but GOE and PCS is VERY subjective.
At 4CC, in FD, 40.90 base value - 1st and 5th place. Base value 41.90 - 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 7th place. So all those placements were decided by GOE and PCS.
I don’t think this system is right! It has nothing to do with technique any more. It depends on subjective criteria.
At 4CC, in FD, 40.90 base value - 1st and 5th place. Base value 41.90 - 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 7th place. So all those placements were decided by GOE and PCS.
I don’t think this system is right! It has nothing to do with technique any more. It depends on subjective criteria.
Last edited:
MAXSwagg
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 1,859
COP is not new. The criteria for Program Component Scores have been posted in links in this forum many times over the years.
Components with Explanations
You’re ignoring the kicker: MINIMUM USE OF CROSS-CUTS. Ashley Wagner-type transitions are a joke and are not my cup of tea. Those body movements really are just choreography and should be classified as such. And I now the guidelines very well, thank you (and you are aware that I know this) so you wasted your time searching for and quoting that.
Vagabond
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 27,065
No, I am not ignoring anything. Have a nice cup of chamomile tea and chill out.
MacMadame
Doing all the things
- Messages
- 65,257
It also sounds stupid.
So a jump with great height, ice coverage, and flow out on the landing that would normally get a +3 to +5 GOE should get negative GOE because someone thinks the arm positions -- which make the jump more difficult-- are "ugly"? Ugly according to whom? It's pretty subjective and the opposite of how the criteria for technical elements is supposed to work.
skatingguy
decently
- Messages
- 19,983
I think the GOE is supposed to be combined - so an unattractive arm position would reduce the GOE by 1 or 2 - but not that the GOE is necessarily negative.
Coco
Rotating while Russian!
- Messages
- 19,283
I wish the bullet points the judges utilized to get to their GOE were recorded. I don't think that they are.
VGThuy
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 41,190
I think the arms as transition thing was worded because they had low-level skaters in mind who are still developing and may not have the skills to use full and effective body movement and arm movement in-between the elements.
Meoima
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 5,336
Yes, it’s a possibility. Maybe they add that part not to punish arms over the head but more like for the judges to not give much GOE to tano and rippon.
MacMadame
Doing all the things
- Messages
- 65,257
That's possible but I also think what we are seeing is so filtered that I distrust most of it.
I also think -2 for "ugly" arm positions is a bit much. And, again, what is "ugly". I would rather see something like +1 for arms over the head, +2 if the position of arms is particularly pleasing or particularly difficult (rather than -1 for "ugly").
I also think -2 for "ugly" arm positions is a bit much. And, again, what is "ugly". I would rather see something like +1 for arms over the head, +2 if the position of arms is particularly pleasing or particularly difficult (rather than -1 for "ugly").
Vagabond
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 27,065
It would be much easier to limit the number of times a raised arm or arms could count toward positive GOE on a jump. I would suggest once for one arm (Boitano/Chin) and once for two arms (Rippon/Manley).
D
Deleted member 40371
Guest
It is not easy to do Rippon arm position, hence athletes don’t do it. At this rate, suggestions for rule change will include how many breathes athletes can during the skate...
Meoima
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 5,336
My guess is that they did not use the word ugly in the training but it was more like an exclamation from the poster like: "OMG finally some ugly tano might get a deduction."
I agree Sotskova's tano look... well... not nice.
rhapsody
Banned Member
- Messages
- 1,048
Konstantinova's are the worst.
At least Sotskova's upper arm in her tanos are like 45 degrees from horizontal. Stanislava's are perfectly straight across her head like she's voguing.
Meoima
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 5,336
You don't remind me of that nightmare. And Tat favours her so much I feel like fainting.Konstantinova's are the worst.
At least Sotskova's upper arm in her tanos are like 45 degrees from horizontal. Stanislava's are perfectly straight across her head like she's voguing.
alchemy void
Post-its for the win.
- Messages
- 27,291
Konstantinova is fabulous! 
A discussion about tanos on FSU? That's something new.
A discussion about tanos on FSU? That's something new.
skatingguy
decently
- Messages
- 19,983
I think we've probably had our one original conversation for the year. I'm not sure what it was, but I'm sure it will come back again in a few weeks.Konstantinova is fabulous!
A discussion about tanos on FSU? That's something new.
Brenda_Bottems
Banned Member
- Messages
- 796
Scrap the new judging system
Go back to 6.0
Ban arms-over-the-head
Ban all judges from Russia.
Problems solved. You're welcome.
-BB
Go back to 6.0
Ban arms-over-the-head
Ban all judges from Russia.
Problems solved. You're welcome.
-BB
Japanfan
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 25,607
I wish there were point advantages for artistic moves.
I remember when there was a mandatory spiral sequence for the Ladies in the SP. It got very tedious watching the ladies the same spirals over and over again.
But OTOH, I would like to see beautiful spirals like those done by Kwan and Cohen in the past rewarded. Listening to the commentators gush on about them was too much, but in retrospect they really were a thing of beauty.
And Ina Bauers like the one Shizuka did at the 2006 Olympics should be rewarded.
I'd also like to see a reward for simple moves done beautifully, particularly if they are choreographed to fit the music. However, I've no idea how this could work in terms of points. Maybe it already factors into to PCS.
MAXSwagg
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 1,859
Many of the things people complain about are not the fault of the system. It's the judges who either don't care/don't see it as an issue, or are not qualified. Obviously they are qualified (I think) so it must be that they don't see things like ugly 'tanos/Rippons, unbalanced programs, poor choreography, poor jump technique, etc. as a problem.
nimi
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 1,682
UPI article with quotes from Nathan & Adam re: the proposal to cut 1 jumping pass from FS:
Olympians Nathan Chen, Adam Rippon talk future of 'quad revolution'
https://www.upi.com/Sports_News/201...talk-future-of-quad-revolution/2461523457019/
Tinami Amori
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 20,153
I really don't like what Rippon is saying about 6 quads. He is advocating some form of "redistribution" and "equalization" because "some can't do all 6 quads", in a venue that is "competition" which means "the best one wins" and . I think he is an as... who can't skate as well as Chen, and trying to sway the rules towards what favors him with lesser tech content. It's harder to do 6 quads, than to wave around and stick out his bubble-butt.. There are quad jumps, those who can do them have better technical abilities, and they should do them and get rewarded.
Last edited:
@Tinami Amori Well, as a competitive skater who finished in the top 10 at the Olympics with no quad, I'd say Adam's doing just fine "waving around and sticking out his bubble-butt." He also has the 7th best average score this year - ahead of many who can do quads (Patrick Chan, Max Aaron, Vincent Zhou, Dmitri Aliev, Sergei Voronov, Alexei Bychenko, Keegan Messing) and with an average only 5 points lower than Kolyada (2 quads in SP, 3 quads in FS) and 6 points lower than Jin (2 quads in SP, 4 quads in FS). And calling him an "as..."? Umm, yeah, okay... Whatever you want to think about him...
Adam's been around the block. He knows how things are changing and that they weren't changing in his favor. As one of the men's competitors who's been around the longest, I think he's in a unique position to comment on the direction of men's figure skating right now.
I do think there needs to be a reform to the quad. I get what he's saying about not everyone being able to do 6 quads. Literally only one skater has done that, and if only one skater remains capable of that, competitions will get less and less interesting. Yes, it is about higher-better-faster-stronger, but parity is good for viewership. If only one man can do 6 quads but 4-5 more skaters can do 3 or 4 quads, maybe we should try to keep quads down to 3 or 4 per program to allow for more parity.
We also need to watch for the splat-fest. Even though more men are now landing quads, quads have made competitions messier and have prevented some of the best skaters we have from getting on podiums. Skating needs to decide if it wants to reward the best jumper or the best all-around skater (jumps, spins, footwork, presentation, etc.).
My bigger concern with quads is the health of skaters. Yes, they're exciting, but do we really want all these injuries to keep on coming or to see all of our favorite skaters getting surgery and chronic pain at a relatively young age from doing all those quads?
Adam's been around the block. He knows how things are changing and that they weren't changing in his favor. As one of the men's competitors who's been around the longest, I think he's in a unique position to comment on the direction of men's figure skating right now.
I do think there needs to be a reform to the quad. I get what he's saying about not everyone being able to do 6 quads. Literally only one skater has done that, and if only one skater remains capable of that, competitions will get less and less interesting. Yes, it is about higher-better-faster-stronger, but parity is good for viewership. If only one man can do 6 quads but 4-5 more skaters can do 3 or 4 quads, maybe we should try to keep quads down to 3 or 4 per program to allow for more parity.
We also need to watch for the splat-fest. Even though more men are now landing quads, quads have made competitions messier and have prevented some of the best skaters we have from getting on podiums. Skating needs to decide if it wants to reward the best jumper or the best all-around skater (jumps, spins, footwork, presentation, etc.).
My bigger concern with quads is the health of skaters. Yes, they're exciting, but do we really want all these injuries to keep on coming or to see all of our favorite skaters getting surgery and chronic pain at a relatively young age from doing all those quads?
Tinami Amori
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 20,153
This is a dangerous trend in society in general: sacrifice one who is excellent, for sake of many who are mediocre.
That one (or two) Chen, Hanyu, will be punished for there excellence, for being far ahead of the field, just because others are "lacking behind", less capable, not so lucky, have different bodies, and whatever the "socialist mantra" today is to justify redistribution.
... and yes, there is a link between "this" and "give everyone a participation medal"... and exclude a junior baseball team from 1 year of competition, because their team won 4 times in a row, and they should let another team win sometimes or poor losers will be discouraged.... Welcome to US-SSR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sh4kz_zhyo
Users who are viewing this thread
Similar threads
- Sticky
- Sticky
