ISU rules changes proposals & reaction

[clairecloutier]

Last month, the ISU announced in an IceNetwork article that they were considering some major changes to the judging framework/competition format of the sport. I can't find the original thread about it, so I'm just starting this one.

I wanted to list all in one place, for those interested, some articles/comments that have come out in response to the proposals (including 2 that I wrote). Some of these have already been posted; a couple are new.

ISU official: 'Radical change' could be on the way
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/11/253667206
Initial IceNetwork article announcing changes

Lakernik hints at changes to IJS
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2016...ard-thinking-lakernik-hints-at-changes-to-ijs
Related, earlier IceNetwork article

Discussion about rules changes proposals
Italian Eurosport commentators Massimiliano Ambesi and Angelo Dolfini
https://the-a-factor-fs.tumblr.com/post/165975610600/kiss-cry-episode-1#Part_4

Statistics, scoring changes, and last weekend's men's highlights
Includes data analysis of scoring changes
Figure skating writer Sarah Rasher of The Finer Sports
http://thefinersports.com/2017/09/statistics-scoring-changes-and-last-weekends-mens-highlights/

With tweaks, proposed figure skating changes make sense
Phil Hersh opinion piece on his Globetrotting site
http://www.globetrottingbyphilipher...gure-skating-scores-olympics-jumps-hanyu-kwan

Going from 4:30 to 4:00
My piece on how the changes will affect pairs free skates
With comments from skaters/coaches and data analysis
https://adivinesport.com/2017/10/23/going-from-430-to-400/

Is the ISU on the Wrong Course?
My opinion piece on other aspects of rules change proposals
https://adivinesport.com/2017/10/24/is-the-isu-on-the-wrong-course/

Dick Button comments on rules changes
In Jack Gallagher article for The Japan Times
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports...c-legend-buttons-advice-hanyu-dont-overtrain/

Rafael Aryutunian comments on rules changes
In recent Russian interview translated by Tabhka
https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/vaytskhovskayas-interview-with-arutyunian.102077/

 

[gkelly]

I wish we had a clearer idea of what the proposed changes will actually entail. It's hard to comment on vague hints.

Chances are we won't know more until spring when the proposals for the ISU Congress come out. Nor precise details until after (some) proposals are officially passed.

I wonder how many skaters, coaches, judges, and tech specialists get input into the process before anything is a done deal.

 

[antmanb]

Why would they reduce the values of quads? If they want to bring PCS in line with the tech in the mens they can change the factoring to increase the PCS score.

Also if they are reducing the length of the LP and losing one of the jumping passes that will bring the overall technical score down for the men too.

Do the ISU just pluck bad ideas from their rear ends?

 

[Sylvia]

Last month, the ISU announced in an IceNetwork article that they were considering some major changes to the judging framework/competition format of the sport. I can't find the original thread about it, so I'm just starting this one.

I wanted to list all in one place, for those interested, some articles/comments that have come out in response to the proposals (including 2 that I wrote). Some of these have already been posted; a couple are new.

Thanks for compiling all these links into a new thread; the original GSD thread is here (in case anyone wants to browse through the 7 pages/almost 200 posts): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/isu-floats-possible-changes-to-judging-system.101764/

 

[skatesindreams]

If they continue to be so anxious to reduce the length of competitions; I can see them believing that it would be good to shorten the LP even more.

Ridiculous!

 

[Vagabond]

I don't see any particularly compelling reason for reducing the value of quadruple jumps as compared to other elements. I do think that TES and PCS need to be recalibrated so that we don't see TES that cannot possibly be matched by PCS, as was the case with the first three finishers in the Men's Free Skate at Worlds this past season.

 

[giselle23]

I think the idea of the separate artistic and technical programs is unnecessary. Just change the emphasis--like what was done under the old 6.0 system. The short program had required technical elements but was also judged on presentation or artistry. A tie in scores would go to the technical score. The free skate lived up to its name--it was free but there was also a technical score, but with no required elements. A tie in the two scores would go to presentation. The problem with the new system is that the need to accumulate points causes the the "free" skate to effectively have required elements--those elements being as many as the skater can cram in. There are also numerous requirements for spins and steps and no clear advantage for artistic moves like spirals, Ina Bauers, spread eagles, etc. The result is that the "free" skate is no longer free. Skaters concentrate on what is sure to get them points--the technical elements. One fix might be to remove the levels for spins and steps and just grade on base value plus GOE. And the components score could be compressed for the long program to just performance/execution and interpretation and, I would add, artistic impression (like what used to be part of 6.0). Another idea would be get rid of levels for spins and steps and grade the second mark like what was done in the old system--ranking on a 10 point system using .1 increments (9.9, 9.8, etc.).

 

[gkelly]

I have no idea what the ISU currently has in mind for separating technical vs. artistic rewards.

For all I know they could want to give separate sets of medals for the same performances.

If the idea is to have one program be more technical and the other be more free with more emphasis on artistry, then I'd recommend:

*Technical long program with maximum jump content and spin/step levels, similar to the current freeskate but maybe some even stricter required elements

*Freeskate with more flexibility about the numbers of jump, spin, steps, and other elements allowed to earn points but probably a lower maximum on the jumps that can count in the free program than in the technical program. To keep it "free," maybe the rule could be something like the four or five highest value jumping passes earn points and all other jumps executed in the program are considered as transitions. Spins and steps and currently leveled pair elements in the free program could be scored on GOE only with no levels.



I definitely think that the Skating Skills component needs to be included in all programs. That is the fundamental basis of the sport and should be more important than either elements or artistry.

I also think that Transitions are important in a free program -- that's exactly where skaters can get credit for all those moves that don't count as elements with base values. However, it would be possible to consider them as part of the Composition component.

 

[Doggygirl]

All I know is that somewhere, there must be a large group of pair skaters wearing mystical robes and boiling something secretive in a large pot. They are planning to cast a spell over the ISU in order to have SBS jumps eliminated.

 

[clairecloutier]

Someone translated one of my articles into Russian . Here's the link if anyone is interested or wants to share: https://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/skatingfenec/1452360.html.

 

[Sylvia]

Going from 4:30 to 4:00
My piece on how the changes will affect pairs free skates
With comments from skaters/coaches and data analysis
https://adivinesport.com/2017/10/23/going-from-430-to-400/

Bumping this thread back up in response to @miffy's question in the Pairs discussion thread and linking to @clairecloutier's blog post.

 

[miffy]

Bumping this thread back up in response to @miffy's question in the Pairs discussion thread and linking to @clairecloutier's blog post.

Thank you Sylvia! Not sure how I missed that but it is very interesting. Excellent article as well. What a shame - less choreography after we have had so many wonderful pairs routines this year.

 

[miffy]

Will they also reduce the junior programmes by 30 seconds?

 

[starrynight]

Here's a question. How many of the posters here who want to see the free skate become more free with fewer required elements and step away from tech points accumulation closely follow ice dance?

I think that following ice dance (where there is no room for technical spread) and it is judged by and large on PCS and GOE gives you a lot of insight into what a less regulated scoring system could be like. It would mean a lot of dissatisfied viewers I think. (Much like how most threads about ice dance tend to revolve around politics and music choices).

I feel a sense of security watching mens and pairs knowing I can count up the elements and know with a degree of certainty where skaters will rank. I would dislike it becoming more like dance where skaters fall in and out of artistic favour, fashion, style etc etc

 

[MAXSwagg]

Here's a question. How many of the posters here who want to see the free skate become more free with fewer required elements and step away from tech points accumulation closely follow ice dance?

I think that following ice dance (where there is no room for technical spread) and it is judged by and large on PCS and GOE gives you a lot of insight into what a less regulated scoring system could be like. It would mean a lot of dissatisfied viewers I think. (Much like how most threads about ice dance tend to revolve around politics and music choices).

I feel a sense of security watching mens and pairs knowing I can count up the elements and know with a degree of certainty where skaters will rank. I would dislike it becoming more like dance where skaters fall in and out of artistic favour, fashion, style etc etc

I disagree about dance. Dance results are seemingly almost always decided by who gets levels and who doesn't...

 

[nimi]

Twitter thread about proposals (unofficial info) here

e.g.

Base value for quads is set to be down 10% (they're still debating over this but I guess this is final). GOE will be +-5 as we know. Fall get -5, step out -3. Arm over the head in jumps if ugly will get -1 to -2

Also: Arm movements considered as transitions; PCS composition will have SPREADABILITY and BALANCE, i.e. all jumps in the 2nd half might affect PCS negatively

 

[MAXSwagg]

Arm movements as transitions?! That is OUTRAGEOUS! How is it fair to those who actually have FOOTWORK transitions that are much more difficult?! That is BS!

 

[rosewood]

nm

 

[Meoima]

Arm movements as transitions?! That is OUTRAGEOUS! How is it fair to those who actually have FOOTWORK transitions that are much more difficult?! That is BS!

Have you forgotten Carolina Kostner's beautiful arm movements?

 

[starrynight]

Reading through those tweets plenty of people are saying that this would just legitimise what happens already.

Interesting that there seems to be some kind of move towards encouraging judges to pre-judge PCS according to official practices. (Again, I know this already happens) but there's a lot of issues with actual making that legit.

 

[thvu]

Arm movements as transitions?! That is OUTRAGEOUS! How is it fair to those who actually have FOOTWORK transitions that are much more difficult?! That is BS!

I was told this about Wagner at 2016 Worlds, that her arm movements were "transitions," so her program wasn't really lacking. It was hard for me not to roll my eyes.

 

[Meoima]

Reading through those tweets plenty of people are saying that this would just legitimise what happens already.

Interesting that there seems to be some kind of move towards encouraging judges to pre-judge PCS according to official practices. (Again, I know this already happens) but there's a lot of issues with actual making that legit.

Yeah it’s not like judges haven’t done the same before.

 

[starrynight]

Yeah it’s not like judges haven’t done the same before.

I guess this has a lot to do with why singles, pairs skaters often go to practices in training clothes but ice dancers always turn up in total full costume with full competition hair and makeup.

 

[Seerek]

I disagree about dance. Dance results are seemingly almost always decided by who gets levels and who doesn't...

Gabby/Guillaume win Olympic gold with a Level 4 step sequence in the Short Dance.

 

[gkelly]

Arm movements as transitions?! That is OUTRAGEOUS! How is it fair to those who actually have FOOTWORK transitions that are much more difficult?! That is BS!

Arm movements (and free leg movements, and body movements) have always been considered under transitions.

But don't forget that the criteria for the Transitions component include Variety and Difficulty.

I can't imagine that arm movements would ever contribute much to the Difficulty criterion. And if you're not doing anything except arm movements, you wouldn't have much Variety.

 

[vesperholly]

Arm movements as transitions?! That is OUTRAGEOUS! How is it fair to those who actually have FOOTWORK transitions that are much more difficult?! That is BS!

Because footwork transitions aren't always called for in a program? I can't stand when skaters shove as many steps and unnecessary movements into a program in the name of "transitions".

 

[Meoima]

Arm movements (and free leg movements, and body movements) have always been considered under transitions.

But don't forget that the criteria for the Transitions component include Variety and Difficulty.

I can't imagine that arm movements would ever contribute much to the Difficulty criterion. And if you're not doing anything except arm movements, you wouldn't have much Variety.

Yeah but Carolina Kostner for example did not have Variety and Difficulty... still high TR score so I guess in action it's more like who look good with their upper body movements.

 

[ninjapirate]

Twitter thread about proposals (unofficial info)

No kidding... his source is a guy getting trained to be a judge probably by people who know things but also have an idea of how they want things to move. The stuff on jumps was public acknowledged by Lakernik and what is said on tanos/rippons and backloading are unlikely to be implemented in the way described because it's so vague and open to interpretation.

 

[Willin]

I honestly don't trust that source. The first two (three?) proposals are things that have been talked about and widely known for a while now. Maybe not the 10% BV decrease for quads, but that there would be a BV decrease.
As for the 4th point - it already happens. Maybe not to determine PCS, but judges are encouraged to show up to official practices and take notes (the referee and technical controller are already required to do so in synchro, but idk about other disciplines).

Because footwork transitions aren't always called for in a program? I can't stand when skaters shove as many steps and unnecessary movements into a program in the name of "transitions".

I can't stand that either, but I also wouldn't want to see a bunch of crossovers with an arm movement considered a full-on transition. At least have some gorgeous deep edges or a couple of mohawks/three turns in there on the lower-body end. I personally like the rule of no more than two crossovers in a row - even if it's two crossovers, lean-lean, two crossovers. In synchro, doing more than 2+ crossovers in a row is actually penalized (or was when I was skating).

 

[Meoima]

I honestly don't trust that source. The first two (three?) proposals are things that have been talked about and widely known for a while now. Maybe not the 10% BV decrease for quads, but that there would be a BV decrease.
As for the 4th point - it already happens. Maybe not to determine PCS, but judges are encouraged to show up to official practices and take notes (the referee and technical controller are already required to do so in synchro, but idk about other disciplines).

If they're preparing for new changes next season then there is nothing secret about all of that though. It is not like top secret that they want balance in the program and stop the much backloading.
Also the wording is pretty much from 3rd or 4th person but the deduction for tano is not something not in debate before. Orser did tell Liza Tursyn that "they do not like many tanos" or so along the line.