ISU confirms more positive doping tests

[eli60056]

Right... because TAT's backing means nothing in the Russian figure skating world. This doctor worked at a specific rink

Surely he did not work at TAT's rink?

But if you are really suggesting it seriously, see above for the premeditated/non-premeditated scenario I considered, and my opinion on its improbability.

 

[ballettmaus]

I think you are the one over reacting here.

YOU brought up Vitamin C. And that its no big deal to take it. But my point was people only take it because they think it does something. (Whether or not it does is debatable.) No matter how 'harmless' Vitamin C is, it is taken because the hope is it has an effect. Same with this drug; it is taken because athletes hope it will have an effect.

This seems to be very similar to a simple vitamin, based on what Plushenko said. This was just a drug they all took, it was no big deal. It became a big deal when it changed to a banned substance.

I have to agree and I really don't see how people can say taking medication is harmless. Anything you take, even the most simple medication or supplement hs an effect on the body. I know that it is a lot easier to get certain medications in the US without prescription but that doesn't mean they don't have an effect on the body. Everything we take needs to be digested and everything we take has an effect on any organ it goes through.

 

[eli60056]

Right... because TAT's backing means nothing in the Russian figure skating world. This doctor worked at a specific rink

I rather thought that for Rus ice dancing another person's backing was much more important than TAT, if you know who I mean

 

[lala]

Harmless extra medicine? Everything you take (even vitamin C) is taken for a positive effect. You don't take things if you expect them to do nothing.

The vitamin C is harmless. In my country we take immune strengthening, prevention, against the colds and flu. Probably in Russia, too. The vitamin C is harmless, because the excess amount is eliminated from the body.

 

[BittyBug]

seems the founder of meldonium says he will help disqualified athletes and may sue wada for banning it
he said in the future may see higher death rates in athletes because of banning such drug

the most juicy comment from him


http://tass.ru/en/sport/861269

That is very interesting.

 

[Rock2]

It is a juicy comment, but to me would have more impact if that question came out in September when all were advised that this drug would be banned. That's when you ask that question.

I have to think the drug's mechanism of action is documented someplace and the half-life is known. At least in North America that is basic information that goes on the drug protocol to be listed. So you would know at what point what % of the drug is in your system at what point in time after taking it. Simple calculation. Since you are advised in September that it goes into effect in January, you have more than enough time to wean your patients off of it. I can't think of any drug that is detectable in your system after 3-4 months of ingestion but I'm not an expert.

Also, drug testing protocols have a tolerance level that concludes it's officially in your system. Again, simple math that can be bumped up against 1/2 life calculation. i don't see this question taking root at this stage in the game.

Loving Sharapova more. She just came clean, took accountability and said let's look forward.
Everyone else is scrambling to call it into question or distance themselves from accountability. Bleh.

 

[Rock2]

seems the founder of meldonium says he will help disqualified athletes and may sue wada for banning it
he said in the future may see higher death rates in athletes because of banning such drug


http://tass.ru/en/sport/861269

I'm trying to be objective here but two thoughts come to mind:

1. Are there no other drugs to treat the relevant health issues? I have to think YES because this drug isn't available in North America so there must be other solutions
2. Companies as entities aren't inherently compassionate unless it makes good business sense ie there is money involved. For the drug maker to suggest such an aggressive position in defense of athletes, I begin to wonder what % of their sales is to this market. You would *think* if this med is used mostly for heart issues that most of its sales are to non-athletes, right? But if they are willing to invest in law suits to protect this segment of the market it must be substantial.

Sorry for looking at it this way but that's where my mind goes (as a former marketer for a drug company).
Ick.

 

[VGThuy]

Does WADA have a notice and comment period when they make changes to their banned substances list?

 

[love_skate2011]

this is what a sport analyst has an explanaition

What specifically happened with Pavel Kulizhnikov, Semion Elitstratov. At a given athlete has fat accumulation. After a stressful situation, (a successful start in the first days of competition at the World Cup Speed Skating - Paul Kulizhnikova and European Championship - Semyon Elistratova are the catalyst of great emotional stress in athletes) there is an active release of solid matter, accumulated over a long time in the fat accumulation. By the way, the same could happen with the skater Ekaterina Bobrova. So maybe this is precisely the answer to all problems detected meldonium? And here we must all thoroughly study and analyze with the drug maker Ivar Kalvins by writing an appropriate request to WADA about this.

it seems since no test has ever been conducted in how long this stays in the body, a fat accumulation after a competition it might have increased the content, even if it was taken long time, similar to like that of hormonal.

note: Kulizhnikov who is the most publicized athlete in this in russia and bearer of winter sports is asthmatic and has been banned before for taking an inhaler with banned subtsnace, it wouldnt make sense for him to take a ban substance that could ban him for life.

 

[WildRose]

Russian athletes need to hold a meeting and get their stories straight: It was prescribed for my heart & to prevent diabetes!, the doctor injected me with the wrong drug!, I was sabotaged!, another country's team set me up!, the lab tests were tainted!, I didn't see the email!

When athletes get caught they almost always blame their performance enhancing drug use on everything but what it really is: cheating to gain an advantage over other athletes. This is no different. They were cheating and they got caught.

 

[MacMadame]

Lots of people take medicine that are not all that effective. Some, because they think it'll work, and others, because 'it can't hurt and might help.'

Which is why I take ubiquitol. And also why I stop taking it. I haven't decided if it actually does anything so when I have the money to spend, I take it but when money gets tight, I figure it's not really doing anything and stop taking it.

(Ubiquitol is a better absorbed form of CoEnzymeQ10, which supposedly gives your cells more energy.)

Many people take Vitamin supplements, and some just take Vitamin C for increased immunity. It is harmless.

It causes inflammation.

To me "harmless medicine" was meant to characterize that it doesn't do anything, it has no effect, so it's no big deal to take.

That's a weird definition of harmless. Harmless just means it does no harm. It doesn't mean it does absolutely nothing.

It's a bad excuse, but at least she owned up to taking it. Bobrova is suggesting sabotage when she didn't even -actually refused- to have her B sample tested.

She didn't actually "refuse", just declined. The B sample is there to protect the athlete. It's up to them if they want to use that extra protection. She decided it wasn't worth it for some reason. Refuse to me is more adamant and also implies not following standard procedure or even breaking rules. She just said "don't bother, I'll accept the results of the A sample."

 

[love_skate2011]

Abeba Aregawi the swedish runner confirmed positive of the now banned meldonium in her sample B. She said she had taken it last time 2 years ago.

so there you go, it is possible these drugs even if taken as late as November in 2015, it still might have stayed in the athlete in an amount that will be detected by advanced WADA technologies.

 

[rjblue]

If the effect of this drug were to extend one's lifespan with no noticable side effect except slightly improving one's ability to train, would it still be unethical to take it?

I would vote no. I wouldn't think less of an athlete who did.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Abeba Aregawi the swedish runner confirmed positive of the now banned meldonium in her sample B. She said she had taken it last time 2 years ago.

so there you go, it is possible these drugs even if taken as late as November in 2015, it still might have stayed in the athlete in an amount that will be detected by advanced WADA technologies.

I'm pretty sure that an athlete saying that they haven't taken a substance for two years but yet they tested positive is the literal opposite of proof of anything.

 

[Eladola]

Abeba Aregawi the swedish runner confirmed positive of the now banned meldonium in her sample B. She said she had taken it last time 2 years ago.

so there you go, it is possible these drugs even if taken as late as November in 2015, it still might have stayed in the athlete in an amount that will be detected by advanced WADA technologies.

Well yeah, Unless she's not being truthful

 

[Eladola]

If there are no Russians at worlds in Boston, I will cancel my trip there. I know that I will lose a ton of money but it's better than suffering through a subpar worlds competition.

I know, Right?

The level of competition will be so subpar as only the athletes who don't use illegal performance enhancers are left

 

[Skittl1321]

That's a weird definition of harmless. Harmless just means it does no harm. It doesn't mean it does absolutely nothing.

I was going off a quote from someone who is not a native speaker of English. (Plushenko). Perhaps I was wrong in my interpretation, but that is what I took him to mean. That everyone took it- it was basically a throw-away part of their routine. They believed it had no effect on the fairness of sport. Hence, harmless (it didn't hurt other athletes for them to take it, because it wasn't performance enhancing- except that now it has been determined to be).

Not harm to the body.

I'll stop trying to interpret Plushenko. Maybe he'll come by FSU to clarify.

 

[mag]

The vitamin C is harmless. In my country we take immune strengthening, prevention, against the colds and flu. Probably in Russia, too. The vitamin C is harmless, because the excess amount is eliminated from the body.

Slightly OT, but the last thing you want to do in the case of a cold is "immune strengthening" lol! Most of the bother from a cold is your immune system's response, not the actual virus. An overactive immune system = autoimmune problems like Lupis. If you are hoping to strengthen your acquired immune system the only way to do that is through vaccination or actually getting the disease so your body can build an immune response. Any OTC medication that promises to strengthen your immune system is full of it and lying like a sidewalk

So in the case at hand, has any reason, other than tiredness, been given for why the injection was given? As pointed out above, if an athlete is tired and receives an injection to give them energy and help them skate well, that is really the definition of performance enhancing. Given that the drug they had regularly used for this purpose was recently banned, it seems odd that they would not check about what they were now be injected with.

 

[hanca]

The only way I see that happening is if the doctor was such an obsessive fan of S/B, that he puts all of us - the obsessive fans, to shame.

Maybe. The doctor could also be paid off...the motivation may not be that he is an obsessive fan; it can be money. And any of the remaining Russian teams would benefit, because Bobrova/Soloviev were clearly Russian number one this season, and therefore occupying one spot, whereas neither of the remaining five teams (S/K, I/Z, S/B, M/K and Z/G) are firmly established. Last season it was I/Z who were at the top, this season it is S/K who is at the top (when B/S are out of the way) and the next season it can again be any of them. So the motivation may not be this years worlds, but to increase the chances for the particular team for the future. Quite honestly, I don't see it as far fetched. People have done much worse to get to the top and B/S would be biggest threat because their future spot would be nearly certain.

 

[Loves_Shizuka]

I'll stop trying to interpret Plushenko. Maybe he'll come by FSU to clarify.

Come to FSU Evgeny!

 

[hanca]

She might, but where is the logic in that the Rus Nat team doctor will do that? For what?
If he had good intentions to help her, to take an initiative to substitute her already approved by another doctor medicine with something else would be foolhardy and unprofessional. He could not know her real medical condition, only her own doctor could know that. So why would he substitute the medicine?
If you mean by evil intentions, it is a little opportunistic, don't you think? I mean he could not have premeditated this because he did not know beforehand that she will even need injections, so that he comes prepared stocked up with an illegal drug to a competition. And to form evil intentions as soon as he found out that she will need injections, just because he took a sudden dislike to her is even less probable.
Any way I look at it, it doesn't add up.

that's what you assume because you are not an elite athlete. It may be that it is not first time Bobrova received an injection of some legal support medication at the competition. It is possible that quite a few sportsmen do. Sportsmen's routines before competitions are usually pretty much the same, so anyone from the Russian team could have known her routine.

 

[taf2002]

If there are no Russians at worlds in Boston, I will cancel my trip there. I know that I will lose a ton of money but it's better than suffering through a subpar worlds competition.

When Michelle Kwan was competing I bought front row all-event tickets & booked flights & hotels. Before I left for the event it was announced that she wouldn't be competing but I went anyway. The ladies' event wasn't as exciting to me but I still had a good time & after all, the 3 other events weren't affected by her absence. Tell me how the mens event will be affected by the loss of the Russians. You sound like the people who are going to move to Canada (as if Canada wants them) if Trump becomes president. Are you going to stamp your tiny foot & have a tantrum?

 

[poths]

Abeba Aregawi the Swedish runner confirmed positive of the now banned meldonium in her sample B. She said she had taken it last time 2 years ago.

so there you go, it is possible these drugs even if taken as late as November in 2015, it still might have stayed in the athlete in an amount that will be detected by advanced WADA technologies.

Yes. The word of a drugs cheat. That's obviously tripe. You have to laugh at the litany of people on this board who are unable to see what's genuinely right before their eyes. Systematic cheating/doping across all sports.

Whoever said they were "loving Sharapova" for her honesty. She took the drug for 10 years, but never declared it once, in that entire decade. Very honest lady. She's laughing all the way to the bank with her 90 million. Mind you, Lance Armstrong still has 5 million twitter followers and many admirers despite being one of the greatest cons and cheats in sporting history. I'm not sure the general public really care about cheating, especially if you're pretty, personable or bring medals back to the home country.

 

[eli60056]

Maybe. The doctor could also be paid off...the motivation may not be that he is an obsessive fan; it can be money. And any of the remaining Russian teams would benefit, because Bobrova/Soloviev were clearly Russian number one this season, and therefore occupying one spot, whereas neither of the remaining five teams (S/K, I/Z, S/B, M/K and Z/G) are firmly established. Last season it was I/Z who were at the top, this season it is S/K who is at the top (when B/S are out of the way) and the next season it can again be any of them. So the motivation may not be this years worlds, but to increase the chances for the particular team for the future. Quite honestly, I don't see it as far fetched. People have done much worse to get to the top and B/S would be biggest threat because their future spot would be nearly certain.

I am sorry, but it is very far fetched. On one hand Bobrova/Soloviev, with all my love for their FD this year, weren't such a threat to anyone, that they cannot be beaten through the normal channels (i.e. competition), and on the worlds scene they were even less important.
On the other hand, the doctor having such a lucrative and cushy job, (really, it is!) would have to be not only an utter fool, but also with a criminal or psychopathic bent, to perpetuate something like this, when he knows with a 100% certainty that she will be caught, and that with the focus WADA had on Russian athletes, it might come to pass that all Russian skaters are excluded from competitions, which would basically mean he will be out of a job as well. And same goes for whoever "ordered" it in your conspiracy theory. If they were/acting on behalf of some favored athletes, those athletes might also have been affected. Look at the Rus. track and field-all were banned from competition. There was no guarantee that the same would not have happened to FS. So if it was ordered, it must have been by some particularly suicidal party. Not plausible.

 

[poths]

I can understand people taking Medonium so long as it was legal.

Can we be clear. Medonium has never been "Legal", but rather, not on the banned list. I know it's semantics, but saying that it was legal implies that it was known to WADA and accepted as non performance enhancing. However, medonium is another case of cheats being ahead of the testers. Once the drug and its benefits became apparent, it was banned.....

 

[altai_rose]

Can we be clear. Medonium has never been "Legal", but rather, not on the banned list. I know it's semantics, but saying that it was legal implies that it was known to WADA and accepted as non performance enhancing. However, medonium is another case of cheats being ahead of the testers. Once the drug and its benefits became apparent, it was banned.....

Wow, to be able to see 10 years in the future and predict which drugs I'm taking now will be banned -- that's a skill I wish I had. Are birth control pills going to be banned too? Because, you know, being able to control when my periods happen and not be on a period during a major competition is also performance-enhancing.

 

[hanca]

Can we be clear. Medonium has never been "Legal", but rather, not on the banned list. I know it's semantics, but saying that it was legal implies that it was known to WADA and accepted as non performance enhancing. However, medonium is another case of cheats being ahead of the testers. Once the drug and its benefits became apparent, it was banned.....

Not being on banned list means that it was legal. What is not forbidden is allowed! If something is allowed, it is not cheating!

 

[StitchMonkey]

Can we be clear. Medonium has never been "Legal", but rather, not on the banned list. I know it's semantics, but saying that it was legal implies that it was known to WADA and accepted as non performance enhancing. However, medonium is another case of cheats being ahead of the testers. Once the drug and its benefits became apparent, it was banned.....

I disagree. I think in this context "legal" simply means it is not in the Cocaine/Heroin/Meth family of illegal drugs. legal drugs can be used illegally, but are still "legal"

 

[allezfred]

Wow, to be able to see 10 years in the future and predict which drugs I'm taking now will be banned -- that's a skill I wish I had. Are birth control pills going to be banned too? Because, you know, being able to control when my periods happen and not be on a period during a major competition is also performance-enhancing.

Using birth control pills to regulate menstrual cycles is one of the reasons why they are prescribed by doctors though.

No doctor worth their salt should be prescribing meldonium to people like Sharapova or Bobrova who do not need the drug for any legitimate medical reason at all. It's highly unethical.

 

[hanca]

Using birth control pills to regulate menstrual cycles is one of the reasons why they are prescribed by doctors though.

No doctor worth their salt should be prescribing meldonium to people like Sharapova or Bobrova who do not need the drug for any legitimate medical reason at all. It's highly unethical.

I thought that there is a legitimate reason. The inventor of the drug wrote about preventative use. Elite sportsmen are training at such a high level that it puts pressure on their heart and could potentially lead to heart attack. Taking this medication would protect the sportsmen/ make it less likely that they would have a heart attack. So one can argue that actually they needed it, as preventative measure. I can't see why that shouldn't be a legitimate medical reason.