ISU confirms more positive doping tests

[Tesla]

Actually drugs (in this case PEDs) allow many young athletes to achieve their dreams and in doing so bring a great deal of pleasure to their fans.

I don't see PED taking as a good vs. evil situation. Sports are inherently unfair. It's better to be tall than short in basketball; it's better to be short than tall in pairs skating. Underweight works for jockeys and overweight for football players. I could have starved my body into submission, worked my muscles until I looked like Hercules, and I still would have failed as a figure skater, because I'm bad at visual memory, spatial relations, and depth perception.

If, as a fan, I want my favorite athletes to be successfully completing the complex and physically challenging moves required in skating and tennis and just about every other sport, then I'd better accept that those athletes are going to take whatever they can get to increase their strength, stamina, and flexibility.

Otherwise I'd better accept that the sport that I like isn't going to look like the sport that I like much longer.

Frankly, I'd rather an athlete not destroy his or her health and body for my entertainment, but that's just me.

 

[millyskate]

An extra factor is that athletes from wealthy countries have access to sophisticated and very expensive recovery tools such as this: https://twitter.com/gamereadyuk . It's all too easy to pontificate about recovery drugs for those who can't afford the technology.

 

[Xela M]

Frankly, I'd rather an athlete not destroy his or her health and body for my entertainment, but that's just me.

So you think elite sport is good for anyone's health? It's not

 

[love_skate2011]

producer of meldonium send a request to WADA to exclude it form banned substance, sends data and research evidence of its use.

http://tass.ru/en/sport/861435

looks like they will all go out for it to be excluded from banned substance
also if this doesnt get excluded, meldodnium owner plans to sue WADA

 

[Carolla5501]

Kind of off topic, but... let's say that most of the Russian team does not show up at Worlds for this. Besides the one poster who isn't going the big implication as I see it is...

How would the get any spots for 2017? And the implications of that towards the Olympic year..... Would they be down to one spot for 2017 if say no one in Dance could compete

(Not that I see this happening, but... )

 

[gk_891]

So you think elite sport is good for anyone's health? It's not

So true. So many elite athletes end up with major injuries and their bodies fail on them over the years. It's very very punishing on them.

 

[gingercat]

I've been of the opinion, ever since the Ben Johnson debacle, that all elite athletes will do anything not-illegal if it will enhance their performance. And most will cheat if they can get away with it, because they all think the other guy is doing it too. Hence, it isn't "really" cheating.

ETA - My related opinion is that the first is not cheating, and the second fails to justify breaking the rules.

Too many Marion Jones's out there. Makes my brain hurt.

Wow, that is a sad opinion towards true athletes, the skaters I know are not willing to cheat to win. I am not sure about other sports.

 

[gingercat]

I read an interview with an Estonian doctor who is in the country's anti-doping agency..he explained that it is partly a cultural thing; that in Eastern Europe and Russia the accepted idea has been for decades that hard training is/can be damaging to health and the heart especially, and therefore these drugs are necessary as "preventative" measures. According to him, there is no truth to this.

That is funny! Ask all the 70 something Russian swimming Olympians about that, oh yeah you can't, most of them are dead from heart conditions caused by the steroids they took and were told they were harmless vitamins.

 

[PRlady]

I feel like I'm getting a cold, and sprayed my mouth with Zicam this morning. That's a specific preventative for a specific condition. If I'm wrong and it's just the onset of allergies, no harm done.

That is a world of difference from preventing heart damage, which may or may not be occurring, by using a substance not proven to do anything beneficial. It stuns me that so many athletes seem to follow drug fads with little thought to the medical, let alone legal, consequences.

 

[allezfred]

An extra factor is that athletes from wealthy countries have access to sophisticated and very expensive recovery tools such as this: https://twitter.com/gamereadyuk . It's all too easy to pontificate about recovery drugs for those who can't afford the technology.

Maria Sharapova and Russian skaters (whether speed or figure) do certainly not lack funds or access to facilities. What's their excuse?

 

[Antika]

I have to think YES because this drug isn't available in North America so there must be other solutions

I just see how they allow some 5-cent Cubian drug to enter the US market where his twin-buddy costs $120.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Kind of off topic, but... let's say that most of the Russian team does not show up at Worlds for this. Besides the one poster who isn't going the big implication as I see it is...

How would the get any spots for 2017? And the implications of that towards the Olympic year..... Would they be down to one spot for 2017 if say no one in Dance could compete

(Not that I see this happening, but... )

All countries get one spot automatically for worlds. So Russia would have one spot in each discipline in 2017. They would then be subject to the same rules as anyone else for earning spots. Getting two spots would not be too difficult.

 

[Tesla]

So you think elite sport is good for anyone's health? It's not

I don't, which is why I find elite sports harder and harder to enjoy. I think about the long-term consequences on their bodies, and I wonder if it's all worth it. I don't think it is, but that's just me.

 

[Vash01]

I don't, which is why I find elite sports harder and harder to enjoy. I think about the long-term consequences on their bodies, and I wonder if it's all worth it. I don't think it is, but that's just me.

Each person has to make his/her own choice about what kind of life they want to live. Elite sports is not something that I would do, but I don't worry too much about those who do. In life, eventually the body is going to deteriorate. If they want a shorter but more exciting life, it's OK because that's what they want. They are not hurting anyone else. The problem though may be with the culture of sports, money, desire to achieve, etc. Sports generate a lot of money, which helps the economy and in some sports the athletes make tons of money. Certainly there are happier and more peaceful ways of living.

 

[mag]

An extra factor is that athletes from wealthy countries have access to sophisticated and very expensive recovery tools such as this: https://twitter.com/gamereadyuk . It's all too easy to pontificate about recovery drugs for those who can't afford the technology.

Game Ready is not really considered that sophisticated anymore. Our local physiotherapist's office has had one for years. This is not a physio in an elite sports complex, in fact, the majority of their patients are weekend warrior types. Furthermore, being successful at taking banned drugs does require sophisticated and expensive medical advice and supervision.

 

[PRlady]

I'm a lot more worried about American football players dying of concussions by their 50th birthdays than I am about skaters. Yes, they face knee and hip injuries, but those are fixable and probably worth it to them to perform in the sport they love. Other than a few horrific pairs accidents, most skaters are not at risk for really serious long-term injury UNLESS they are stupid about drugs that could damage their bodies. Noone knows what the long-term effect of this drug is; maybe nothing, maybe something.

 

[MsZem]

I'm a lot more worried about American football players dying of concussions by their 50th birthdays than I am about skaters. Yes, they face knee and hip injuries, but those are fixable and probably worth it to them to perform in the sport they love. Other than a few horrific pairs accidents, most skaters are not at risk for really serious long-term injury UNLESS they are stupid about drugs that could damage their bodies. Noone knows what the long-term effect of this drug is; maybe nothing, maybe something.

I'm more worried about concussions too, but knee and hip injuries can nonetheless cause chronic pain and long-term mobility issues, and as such are definitely not something that should be dismissed. Yagudin has had a hip replacement, Plushenko has been injured in every way imaginable and is looking into treatment in Israel yet again, Daisuke Takahashi tore his ACL, Lambiel has suffered from serious hip problems, and Laura Lepisto's injuries eventually drove her out of the sport. And those are just a few examples.

Also, skaters too can suffer from concussions and their effects; Gabriella Papadakis and Josh Farris are recent examples, and IN did a series of articles about it recently that's worth reading.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of risks in skating that have very little to do with PED use.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I could see long-term follow-up on those who used it for the basic course, but would they even study the effects of long-term usage, if the general course is months, not years?

 

[PRlady]

I'm more worried about concussions too, but knee and hip injuries can nonetheless cause chronic pain and long-term mobility issues, and as such are definitely not something that should be dismissed. Yagudin has had a hip replacement, Plushenko has been injured in every way imaginable and is looking into treatment in Israel yet again, Daisuke Takahashi tore his ACL, Lambiel has suffered from serious hip problems, and Laura Lepisto's injuries eventually drove her out of the sport. And those are just a few examples.

Also, skaters too can suffer from concussions and their effects; Gabriella Papadakis and Josh Farris are recent examples, and IN did a series of articles about it recently that's worth reading.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of risks in skating that have very little to do with PED use.

OK, I concede that. But overall the risk is less than in some other (contact) sports. And plenty of us are looking at hip replacements whose big athletic activity was couch-surfing.

The point is that skating doesn't have drugs with obvious, measurable benefits for performing that I'm aware of. This drug appears to have dubious positive effects and unknown negative effects. It would seem that skaters would be more careful of what they take in their own long-term interests.

 

[gingercat]

All countries get one spot automatically for worlds. So Russia would have one spot in each discipline in 2017. They would then be subject to the same rules as anyone else for earning spots. Getting two spots would not be too difficult.

No, All countries do not get one spot for Worlds automatically. Athletes need to earn the technical scores required first and then their country can use a spot. The number of Spots are determined by placement at the previous Worlds.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Actually all members are entitled to one spot per discipline automatically. They need to have at least one eligible athlete/team who meets a number of requirements -- age, citizenship/residency, TES minimums, not suspended, etc. -- to be able to claim those spots.

Since Russia has qualifiers in each discipline in the double-digits, it shouldn't be an issue.

 

[StitchMonkey]

No, All countries do not get one spot for Worlds automatically. Athletes need to earn the technical scores required first and then their country can use a spot. The number of Spots are determined by placement at the previous Worlds.

Fair point of clarification

Actually all members are entitled to one spot per discipline automatically. They need to have at least one eligible athlete/team who meets a number of requirements -- age, citizenship/residency, TES minimums, not suspended, etc. -- to be able to claim those spots.

Since Russia has qualifiers in each discipline in the double-digits, it shouldn't be an issue.

This is probably the better/more complete answer. I kinda forget to think about minimum TES because as Kwanfan points out... Russia is very unlikely to to have an issue with this.

Russia will have one spot each... it is just a matter of it they can fill it... which I am sure they can.

 

[Alilou]

Kind of off topic, but... let's say that most of the Russian team does not show up at Worlds for this. Besides the one poster who isn't going the big implication as I see it is...

How would the get any spots for 2017? And the implications of that towards the Olympic year..... Would they be down to one spot for 2017 if say no one in Dance could compete

(Not that I see this happening, but... )

I think the only way the Russian team doesn't show up for worlds is if WADA suddenly decides to ban Russian participation in all skating events a la track and field. I don't know shit but I'm thinking that's unlikely at this point. AKAIK there won't be anymore testing in the next few weeks apart from random testing. Anyone who was tested at Europeans would have their results by now and if any were found to be positive then it would no doubt have been announced the same as Bobrova's was.

 

[marbri]

producer of meldonium send a request to WADA to exclude it form banned substance, sends data and research evidence of its use.

http://tass.ru/en/sport/861435

looks like they will all go out for it to be excluded from banned substance
also if this doesnt get excluded, meldodnium owner plans to sue WADA

Well they would considering:
https://www.epo.org/learning-events/european-inventor/finalists/2015/kalvins.html

Kalvins’ biggest success story to date is meldonium, medicinal name Mildronate, an efficient drug against heart disease. Manufactured and marketed by Latvian pharmaceuticals company Grindeks, Mildronate ranks among Latvia’s most successful medical exports: it generated an export turnover of around €60–70 million in 2013, with a share of 0.6% to 0.7% of all Latvian exports.

Founded in 1991, publicly listed company Grindeks now employs around 1000 people and in 2013 reported revenues of €118.5 million – the lion’s share from sales of Mildronate. Other breakthroughs include the anti-cancer drug Belinostat, approved by the FDA in 2014 and licensed by US pharmaceutical company Spectrum. Kalvins also developed the neuroprotectant Neramexane licensed by Merz Pharmaceuticals, currently undergoing phase III clinical trials for treatment of Alzheimer disease, and the anti-inflammatory OX-MPI, currently advanced into clinical practice by Orexo and Boehringer Ingelheim.

 

[Erin]

^^ @marbri - exactly. People are quoting the inventor and producer of the drug like they are unbiased sources who don't have skin in the game, when they clearly have a vested interest in keeping it off the banned list. Of course they are going to take that position.

 

[briancoogaert]

Even though i'd rather not see any figure skaters fail doping tests, I'm praying to the skate gods that a Russian lady isn't involved in all of this, they are already critiqued enough as it is, I cannot even imagine if doping was added to that list

Well, at least, it would be an objective reason to criticize them, no ?

 

[Carolla5501]

All countries get one spot automatically for worlds. So Russia would have one spot in each discipline in 2017. They would then be subject to the same rules as anyone else for earning spots. Getting two spots would not be too difficult.

So the big problem might be they would not be able to get three... Interesting.

I think the only way the Russian team doesn't show up for worlds is if WADA suddenly decides to ban Russian participation in all skating events a la track and field. I don't know shit but I'm thinking that's unlikely at this point. AKAIK there won't be anymore testing in the next few weeks apart from random testing. Anyone who was tested at Europeans would have their results by now and if any were found to be positive then it would no doubt have been announced the same as Bobrova's was.

Oh I agree I was just curiuous because earlier in this thread a poster something to the effect of "if the Russians aren't coming I am staying home" Which made me wonder what would happen if they didn't come (aside from the poster not attending LOL!)

 

[StitchMonkey]

So the big problem might be they would not be able to get three... Interesting.

They could get three spots. If you only have one competitor, and are 1st or 2nd, you earn three spots. I think a gold or silver in at least one event is not out of the realms of possible for Russia in 2017 even if they can only send one skater/team.

Oh I agree I was just curiuous because earlier in this thread a poster something to the effect of "if the Russians aren't coming I am staying home" Which made me wonder what would happen if they didn't come (aside from the poster not attending LOL!)

I doubt it will happen that fast, but the ban on Russia for Rio came pretty quick after the first rumblings. I don't expect it to happen, but also would not be surprised if it did.... but how many if any will test positive at worlds if they are there?

I wonder if WADA would be allowed to increase the number of people tested though. That does not seem unfair to me and might be a good idea. And before anyone says it... no i do not mean "Test all the Russians and only the Russians" I am saying test everyone more... just enough more that a few Russians (and really every country) are included.

 

[Vash01]

Frankly, I'd rather an athlete not destroy his or her health and body for my entertainment, but that's just me.

I don't think they are doing this to entertain others. They are doing it for themselves (achievement, career success, etc.).

 

[hanca]

First of all, "the inventor of the drug"? I'm sure his concern has absolutely nothing to do with sales.

Secondly, if you potentially have a health risk to your heart perhaps that's a sign that you should not be endangering your health with strenuous exercise? Because if you disregard a doctor's advice on it, you are a reckless dumbass.

Well, what's your suggestion then? Banning all sports? Because sport at that level is risk to the heart.