ISU confirms more positive doping tests

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bardtoob said:
And it is the athletes fault if they employ bad doctors.
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No. Do you hold ordinary people to that high standard as well? It's the doctor's job to practice good medicine. Not the patient's, even if he or she is an athlete.
Skittl1321 said:
Harmless extra medicine? Everything you take (even vitamin C) is taken for a positive effect. You don't take things if you expect them to do nothing.
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In context, I think he means that mildronate has, at best, a negligible effect on actual performance. Lots of people take medicine that are not all that effective. Some, because they think it'll work, and others, because 'it can't hurt and might help.' For example, millions of Americans use OTC anti-cough medicines, even though the actual evidence is unclear whether they really work or not. And doctors also prescribe or continue certain medications, even when they're not 100% certain the medication has an actual effect or it's placebo...
 
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zebraswan said:
If any of them failed at Euros then they wouldn't have been put on the Worlds team, and the drug has only been banned since Jan. 1.

If there was really sabotage, it seems counterproductive for one's teammates to do it since it could end up causing the entire team to be banned. I hate conspiracy theories, but stranger things have happened in Russia (Bolshoi acid attack comes to mind). I just really hope there are no additional figure skaters involved.
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I am confused. Why would the entire Russian team be banned if one or two skaters sabotaged their teammates?

If there are no Russians at worlds in Boston, I will cancel my trip there. I know that I will lose a ton of money but it's better than suffering through a subpar worlds competition.
 
Skittl1321 said:
Harmless extra medicine? Everything you take (even vitamin C) is taken for a positive effect. You don't take things if you expect them to do nothing.
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Many people take Vitamin supplements, and some just take Vitamin C for increased immunity. It is harmless. If you are going to overreact, you might as well stop eating food. Food does contain chemicals (sarcasm intended)
 
peibeck said:
Yeah, the Sharapova find is especially puzzling to me. I mean, she has lived and trained in the U.S. since (I think) 1994, and this drug is not available in the U.S., how was she obtaining a regular prescription of this? And could there be further penalties if she was bringing it into the U.S.?
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If she was bringing it for her personal use, I don't see why that should be penalized. It's not like she was selling it to others. Many people go to Mexico to get cheaper medicines.

The overreaction on this thread has been amazing.
 
Also, lots of people take extra vitamin C for colds, even though that has been debunked. And there are so many supplements on the American market, there are whole stores for it! that was very puzzling to me when I moved here. In Denmark it wasn't that common to take anything other than a multivitamin (I'm sure it is now though).
 
Vash01 said:
I am confused. Why would the entire Russian team be banned if one or two skaters sabotaged their teammates?
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Their entire track & field team was recently suspended. And suppose multiple athletes test positive, and sabotage can't be proven. It's not a given that they would all be banned, but why take the risk? Even if only a few get suspended, it's obviously not helpful to the team's reputation at all.
 
I could be wrong, but I think @Skittl1321 point was that when people take drugs they do so because they believe there will be a positive effect (whether or not there is one is beside the point.) For an athlete to now say that they took a drug but never believed it was going to help them is disingenuous at best. Skaters who took this drug did so because they thought it would give them an advantage.

As for the doctors, team doctors have been helping athletes cheat for decades. Athletes either knew about it or chose not to know about it. Any athlete who had been taking this drug prior to its inclusion on the banned list, who allows a team doctor to give them an injection at a competition without first getting a written statement from the doctor about what is in the injection is, IMHO, crazy. Same goes for supplements. Purchase your own, make sure the bottles are sealed, and don't leave them anywhere where they can be tampered with.
 
altai_rose said:
No. Do you hold ordinary people to that high standard as well? It's the doctor's job to practice good medicine. Not the patient's, even if he or she is an athlete.
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I do hold ordinary people to high standards.

If it were not the athlete's responsibility, then the drug list would not have been sent to the athletes. Furthermore, only children, the extreme elderly, and the disabled are not responsible for what medications they consume because these are the only people that have medication forced upon them. Technically, a prescription from a physician is only a professional opinion that a person chooses to accept or reject, and a prescription is usually only required by law under rare cases, such as if a person causes a public health risk by not taking a medication.

(Note: The physician's were bad at practicing "sports" medicine, not necessarily at practicing medicine. The drug was approved and did not appear to cause any harm to the patient, so it was not bad medicine. However, in sports medicine, the physician should advise the patient on what is available and what is permitted according to the sporting authorities. From there, it is the athletes choice.)
 
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zebraswan said:
Their entire track & field team was recently suspended. And suppose multiple athletes test positive, and sabotage can't be proven. It's not a given that they would all be banned, but why take the risk? Even if only a few get suspended, it's obviously not helpful to the team's reputation at all.
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Thanks for clarifying. You were referring to the track & field team; I was thinking of the figure skating team. :)
 
mag said:
I could be wrong, but I think @Skittl1321 point was that when people take drugs they do so because they believe there will be a positive effect (whether or not there is one is beside the point.) For an athlete to now say that they took a drug but never believed it was going to help them is disingenuous at best. Skaters who took this drug did so because they thought it would give them an advantage.

As for the doctors, team doctors have been helping athletes cheat for decades. Athletes either knew about it or chose not to know about it. Any athlete who had been taking this drug prior to its inclusion on the banned list, who allows a team doctor to give them an injection at a competition without first getting a written statement from the doctor about what is in the injection is, IMHO, crazy. Same goes for supplements. Purchase your own, make sure the bottles are sealed, and don't leave them anywhere where they can be tampered with.
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Do you really think a written statement from the doctor would help with a positive drug test?

Do you really think that doctors don't have the capacity to lie and or make mistakes on the written statement.

Also, I think you should try getting this from your doctor and see how much luck you have.
 
Vash01 said:
Many people take Vitamin supplements, and some just take Vitamin C for increased immunity. It is harmless. If you are going to overreact, you might as well stop eating food. Food does contain chemicals (sarcasm intended)
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To me "harmless medicine" was meant to characterize that it doesn't do anything, it has no effect, so it's no big deal to take. Not "OMG chemicals, oh no!" (Everything is a chemical). But no one takes anything thinking it will do nothing.

I might take Vitamin C because I hope it keeps me from getting a cold. Athletes took this because they hoped it had an effect. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't- but they didn't all take it because they had heart problems. The Russians didn't give it to their army in Afghanistan (apparently without even telling them, based on the article I read) because they all had heart problems- they gave it in hopes it would boost their endurance. And it seems like possibly this drug was wide spread in Russian society the way taking a million supplements in the US is. Which is why athletes in the US who take those million supplements have to scrutinized banned lists as well; because they take them in hopes it helps them with something, and if one becomes banned (probably because it is determined they actually work...) this could happen to them too.

No medicine will turn someone who is not athletic into wonderwoman/superman; but the idea is generally that it will give someone who is already very good an edge to make them even better.
 
altai_rose said:
In context, I think he means that mildronate has, at best, a negligible effect on actual performance. Lots of people take medicine that are not all that effective. Some, because they think it'll work, and others, because 'it can't hurt and might help.' For example, millions of Americans use OTC anti-cough medicines, even though the actual evidence is unclear whether they really work or not. And doctors also prescribe or continue certain medications, even when they're not 100% certain the medication has an actual effect or it's placebo...
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Exactly- the reason they are taking it is because they hope it has an effect. They aren't taking it for nothing.
 
Skittl1321 said:
To me "harmless medicine" was meant to characterize that it doesn't do anything, it has no effect, so it's no big deal to take. Not "OMG chemicals, oh no!" (Everything is a chemical). But no one takes anything thinking it will do nothing.

I might take Vitamin C because I hope it keeps me from getting a cold. Athletes took this because they hoped it had an effect. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't- but they didn't all take it because they had heart problems. The Russians didn't give it to their army in Afghanistan (apparently without even telling them, based on the article I read) because they all had heart problems- they gave it in hopes it would boost their endurance. And it seems like possibly this drug was wide spread in Russian society the way taking a million supplements in the US is. Which is why athletes in the US who take those million supplements have to scrutinized banned lists as well; because they take them in hopes it helps them with something, and if one becomes banned (probably because it is determined they actually work...) this could happen to them too.

No medicine will turn someone who is not athletic into wonderwoman/superman; but the idea is generally that it will give someone who is already very good an edge to make them even better.
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So now you want to blame Vitamin C? So many people take it as preventative for cold. Many medicines are prescribed as preventatives.

Talk about overreaction.
 
StitchMonkey said:
Do you really think a written statement from the doctor would help with a positive drug test?

Do you really think that doctors don't have the capacity to lie and or make mistakes on the written statement.

Also, I think you should try getting this from your doctor and see how much luck you have.
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No, I don't think it would help with a positive drug test. But it might help with sponsors to know that the athlete took reasonable precautions. It might also make the doctor think twice about doing something without the athletes consent ... Which leads us to

I completely believe that doctors have the same capacity to lie and cheat as other human beings. There is the good and bad in every profession. Now, do I think that a team doctor could make a mistake and accidentally inject an athlete with a banned substance? No, I don't. This isn't OTC cold medicine with active ingredients written in a foreign language. This isn't the early days of drug testing. This is a drug which was recently added to the banned list. This is a drug which, by most accounts, was regularly taken by many Russian athletes. To suggest that a doctor "made a mistake" is sticking your head in the sand. I also can't think of a reputable doctor who would inject someone without know exactly what was in the syringe.

As for getting something in writing, athletes need to make their own informed decisions. They need to weigh the risks and rewards. If it was me, and the team doctor would not specify in writing what was in the syringe, I would refuse the injection.
 
mag said:
No, I don't think it would help with a positive drug test. But it might help with sponsors to know that the athlete took reasonable precautions. It might also make the doctor think twice about doing something without the athletes consent ... Which leads us to

I completely believe that doctors have the same capacity to lie and cheat as other human beings. There is the good and bad in every profession. Now, do I think that a team doctor could make a mistake and accidentally inject an athlete with a banned substance? No, I don't. This isn't OTC cold medicine with active ingredients written in a foreign language. This isn't the early days of drug testing. This is a drug which was recently added to the banned list. This is a drug which, by most accounts, was regularly taken by many Russian athletes. To suggest that a doctor "made a mistake" is sticking your head in the sand. I also can't think of a reputable doctor who would inject someone without know exactly what was in the syringe.

As for getting something in writing, athletes need to make their own informed decisions. They need to weigh the risks and rewards. If it was me, and the team doctor would not specify in writing what was in the syringe, I would refuse the injection.
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I think not everyone understands what Katia says exactly though. She was given her medicine in vials by her own doctor, who did not go to the EC, she then handed them out to the Rus Nat team doctor before the competition, to inject her if she needed.
So how could the team doctor give her a written statement of what is in the vials? Her own doctor, who gave her the vials, is the only one who can give her that statement.
 
eli60056 said:
I think not everyone understands what Katia says exactly though. She was given her medicine in vials by her own doctor, who did not go to the EC, she then handed them out to the Rus Nat team doctor before the competition, to inject her if she needed.
So how could the team doctor give her a written statement of what is in the vials? Her own doctor, who gave her the vials, is the only one who can give her that statement.
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Perhaps Katia is insinuating that the team doctor did not use the vials Katia gave him but instead substituted other vials.
 
eli60056 said:
I think not everyone understands what Katia says exactly though. She was given her medicine in vials by her own doctor, who did not go to the EC, she then handed them out to the Rus Nat team doctor before the competition, to inject her if she needed.
So how could the team doctor give her a written statement of what is in the vials? Her own doctor, who gave her the vials, is the only one who can give her that statement.
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Okay, I misunderstood. But the fact remains that she is responsible for what goes in her body. It is actually worse if it ends up the Meldonium was in the injection (do we know for sure if it was?) She is an elite athlete who is aware of the changes to the banned drug list. Surely she discussed this with her doctor prior to getting anymore medication? If she doesn't then she is either incredible stupid or she just doesn't want to know. Also, how could it be sabatoge if the vials came from her family doctor? Are people suggesting the team doctor somehow added something to the vials? Surely he / she is the only one who would have access to them.

If I was a betting person I would bet that it was sanctioned doping that went wrong because someone miscalculated the half life. Sucks when you get caught. All the quotes from other athletes about how "everyone" was on this drug prior to it being banned is just an attempt to minimize the damage.
 
euterpe said:
Perhaps Katia is insinuating that the team doctor did not use the vials Katia gave him but instead substituted other vials.
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She might, but where is the logic in that the Rus Nat team doctor will do that? For what?
If he had good intentions to help her, to take an initiative to substitute her already approved by another doctor medicine with something else would be foolhardy and unprofessional. He could not know her real medical condition, only her own doctor could know that. So why would he substitute the medicine?
If you mean by evil intentions, it is a little opportunistic, don't you think? I mean he could not have premeditated this because he did not know beforehand that she will even need injections, so that he comes prepared stocked up with an illegal drug to a competition. And to form evil intentions as soon as he found out that she will need injections, just because he took a sudden dislike to her is even less probable.
Any way I look at it, it doesn't add up.
 
eli60056 said:
She might, but where is the logic in that the Rus Nat team doctor will do that? For what?
If he had good intentions to help her, to take an initiative to substitute her already approved by another doctor medicine with something else would be foolhardy and unprofessional. He could not know her real medical condition, only her own doctor could know that. So why would he substitute the medicine?
If you mean by evil intentions, it is a little opportunistic, don't you think? I mean he could not have premeditated this because he did not know beforehand that she will even need injections, so that he comes prepared stocked up with an illegal drug to a competition. And to form evil intentions as soon as he found out that she will need injections, just because he took a sudden dislike to her is even less probable.
Any way I look at it, it doesn't add up.
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Well, for example...... If he was interested in S&B going to Worlds and making the Olympic team.
 
Xela M said:
I understand(ish) the skating cases, but Sharapova's case is beyond my comprehension. She had too much at stake to take doping from a Russian family doctor. Is her medical team not American?! Can't she afford more sophisticated drugs?

The "I didn't check the WADA list" excuse is beyond ridiculous for someone who is now at risk of losing over £100mio
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It's a bad excuse, but at least she owned up to taking it. Bobrova is suggesting sabotage when she didn't even -actually refused- to have her B sample tested.
 
Vash01 said:
So now you want to blame Vitamin C? So many people take it as preventative for cold. Many medicines are prescribed as preventatives.

Talk about overreaction.
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I think you are the one over reacting here.

YOU brought up Vitamin C. And that its no big deal to take it. But my point was people only take it because they think it does something. (Whether or not it does is debatable.) No matter how 'harmless' Vitamin C is, it is taken because the hope is it has an effect. Same with this drug; it is taken because athletes hope it will have an effect.

This seems to be very similar to a simple vitamin, based on what Plushenko said. This was just a drug they all took, it was no big deal. It became a big deal when it changed to a banned substance.
 
eli60056 said:
The only way I see that happening is if the doctor was such an obsessive fan of S/B, that he puts all of us - the obsessive fans, to shame. :)
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Right... because TAT's backing means nothing in the Russian figure skating world. This doctor worked at a specific rink
 
seems the founder of meldonium says he will help disqualified athletes and may sue wada for banning it
he said in the future may see higher death rates in athletes because of banning such drug

the most juicy comment from him
WADA has blacklisted it as a prohibited formula, but nobody knows for how long it may stay in the human body. Nobody has ever conducted research into this matter yet," Kalvins said. "
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http://tass.ru/en/sport/861269
 
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