Increasingly likely “Russia” will be banned from Pyeongchang

[skatepixie]

The state cannot be honored selectively. It defeats the purpose.

The purpose of a political witchhunt perhaps, but not the purpose of the Olympics.

Heck, they allow China to compete despite human rights issues up the wazoo -- they even let them host the games. They never banned East Germany for all their state sponsored doping, probably the worst in the history of sports. This is unprecedented and insane.

 

[skatepixie]

That's called the World Figure Skating Championships!

The IOC can't touch that, thankfully. Still, it shouldn't take the Olympics away from the Russian skaters or their federation.

 

[misskarne]

It's interesting that those of us arguing against a blanket ban are accused of only wanting to protect the Russian skaters and not caring about other athletes, but there seem to be quite a few arguing passionately for the ban of innocent Russian skaters just because it will be to their skaters' advantage...

Though at least no-one's trying to martyr known dopers in this thread, though for some reason I am not supposed to call out US athletics' known doping program and the utter hypocrisy of someone like Gatlin being allowed to compete but not clean, innocent athletes?

 

[zoe111]

Reminds me of a joke hurdler Sergei Shubenkov told about if it would be allowed if he walked around with a bear on a leash! Yes it’s a symbol but not an official government seal or symbol! I do think American and Canadian and others would seek to ban Anna karenina!

That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve read in this thread so far.

 

[skatepixie]

It's interesting that those of us arguing against a blanket ban are accused of only wanting to protect the Russian skaters and not caring about other athletes, but there seem to be quite a few arguing passionately for the ban of innocent Russian skaters just because it will be to their skaters' advantage...

Though at least no-one's trying to martyr known dopers in this thread, though for some reason I am not supposed to call out US athletics' known doping program and the utter hypocrisy of someone like Gatlin being allowed to compete but not clean, innocent athletes?

Personally, I don't know enough about the other sports involved to have an informed opinion, truthfully. I would fight for the Russian gymnasts if this were a Summer Games, however. I don't follow Track, etc, and I don't even know who Gatlin is outside this thread.

 

[IceAlisa]

The purpose of a political witchhunt perhaps, but not the purpose of the Olympics.

Heck, they allow China to compete despite human rights issues up the wazoo -- they even let them host the games. They never banned East Germany for all their state sponsored doping, probably the worst in the history of sports. This is unprecedented and insane.

Explain how doping and cheating clean athletes fits into the purpose of the Olympics.
But really, you are totally rolling down a slippery slope. I am not going to argue with a logical fallacy.

 

[IceAlisa]

It's interesting that those of us arguing against a blanket ban are accused of only wanting to protect the Russian skaters and not caring about other athletes, but there seem to be quite a few arguing passionately for the ban of innocent Russian skaters just because it will be to their skaters' advantage...

Though at least no-one's trying to martyr known dopers in this thread, though for some reason I am not supposed to call out US athletics' known doping program and the utter hypocrisy of someone like Gatlin being allowed to compete but not clean, innocent athletes?

Pssst, this is a figure skating forum...

 

[Willin]

It's interesting that those of us arguing against a blanket ban are accused of only wanting to protect the Russian skaters and not caring about other athletes, but there seem to be quite a few arguing passionately for the ban of innocent Russian skaters just because it will be to their skaters' advantage...

Though at least no-one's trying to martyr known dopers in this thread, though for some reason I am not supposed to call out US athletics' known doping program and the utter hypocrisy of someone like Gatlin being allowed to compete but not clean, innocent athletes?

I don't really want to explain it 100 times, but you really don't understand how unfeasible a US doping program would be, do you? Even a doping program within a sport is pretty much impossible due to our healthcare system...
ETA: Another reason US Athletics can't have a doping program is the NCAA. And the fact that all of our track and field athletes train independently unless they are under the NCAA.

But I won't explain it, because I feel you will never understand it since it contradicts your opinion. (Also, this is a skating forum and this thread is about how the ban would impact the skating events)

 

[IceAlisa]

We have 18 pages here but I must have missed posts arguing for a total ban of all Russian athletes from competition.

 

[skatepixie]

Explain how doping and cheating clean athletes fits into the purpose of the Olympics.
But really, you are totally rolling down a slippery slope. I am not going to argue with a logical fallacy.

I'm not sure what you mean by "doping and cheating clean athletes."

Also, you seem to have some confusion about what a logical fallacy is -- the fallacy is when someone argues that someone else is wrong because they are going down a slippery slope. Unless you're saying you think I am but you don't want to make that argument because it's a bad argument -- but then, why half-make it?

 

[IceAlisa]

I'm not sure what you mean by "doping and cheating clean athletes."

Also, you seem to have some confusion about what a logical fallacy is -- the fallacy is when someone argues that someone else is wrong because they are going down a slippery slope. Unless you're saying you think I am but you don't want to make that argument because it's a bad argument -- but then, why half-make it?

Have you missed all the evidence of the Russian doping program?

Google the slippery slope fallacy.

 

[skatepixie]

Have you missed all the evidence of the Russian doping program?

Google the slippery slope fallacy.

No, I haven't missed it -- I'm asking you to explain a few confusing and vague sentences, that's all.

If anyone's making a slippery slope argument here, it's you.

 

[IceAlisa]

If anyone's making a slippery slope argument here, it's you.

Really? How?

 

[skatepixie]

Really? How?

I don't want to derail the thread, and my finger hurts (not sure what I did to it, but maaaaan). But, you seem to be saying (if I'm reading you right, but you won't clarify anything, so...) that if we let people get away with this, worse things will happen?

While I'm saying that the IOC has allowed the selective glorification of other states, so it fits in fine with their previous actions (except for the fact that some people want to throw the book at Russia for everything for political reasons). They allow countries with horrid human rights violations to participate and host. They never banned East Germany, etc, etc. May as well allow those athletes not involved in cheating to go unpunished. And taking away their flags and uniforms IS a punishment.

 

[ilovepaydays]

I don't really want to explain it 100 times, but you really don't understand how unfeasible a US doping program would be, do you? Even a doping program within a sport is pretty much impossible due to our healthcare system...
ETA: Another reason US Athletics can't have a doping program is the NCAA. And the fact that all of our track and field athletes train independently unless they are under the NCAA.

But I won't explain it, because I feel you will never understand it since it contradicts your opinion. (Also, this is a skating forum and this thread is about how the ban would impact the skating events)

I think that it also helps that the USOC, the sports’ governing bodies, & NCAA are all 100% private - absolutely no government funding. I hope it always stays that way.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Why couldn’t the team be the Neutral team

Neutral is not an ISU member.

I thought actual evidence of East German doping came after there was no longer a country called DDR, so what country would they have banned?

 

[allezfred]

I mean, this is where I fall on the issue - that the sprinters were fairly punished by their suspensions, Russia should face sanctions, and I feel bad for the Russian athletes (particularly those like the figure skaters who were not involved in the scandal, or like Medvedeva were too young to compete in Sochi).

I don't think the sprinters were fairly punished. They should not be competing at all, particular after multiple failed tests. The fact that some people and media in the U.S. have no problem cheering for proven cheaters is a sign of moral bankruptcy. I'm not advocating for someone like Justin Gatlin to be booed in public like he was at the World Athletics champs this summer, but if people don't find it troubling that he continues to compete, I can't say I can blame the Russians for feeling there is a bit of hypocrisy going on too.

 

[bardtoob]

The fact that the Russian state-sponsored program exists, for starters.

I do not think state-sponsored programs can be countered from the outside of the country unless they are made a waste of money by catching a stripping any gains from the state-sponsored programs.

 

[BaileyCatts]

If Russian skaters can't compete in the Team Event, then they need to outright cancel the Team Event (which I believe to be a bogus event anyway and anyone who wins a Team Event medal needs an * behind their name like everyone says the Ladies winner will have if Med can't compete in singles. ). There ... I said it ..... bbbllpphhtttt. Now I'm outta here. BYE!

 

[bardtoob]

ETA: Another reason US Athletics can't have a doping program is the NCAA. And the fact that all of our track and field athletes train independently unless they are under the NCAA.

The NCAA is such a pain in the a$$ when their sports intersect with Olympic sports.

 

[VGThuy]

I think it's sort of hard to show hypocrisy when we can't compare people's opinions on the Russian ban and how they feel about individuals who continued to compete after being caught doping in individualized cases like with Gatlin. Since this is a figure skating forum, I don't know how many who have participated in this thread and made their opinions known also shared their opinions on Gatlin and Track and Field to make an accusation of hypocrisy.

I know people want to say all Americans supported Gatlin and also support a blanket ban on Russia due to political reasons and the demonization of Russia by the West, but I don't agree with that broad brush assessment. I also think there's something a bit extra with state-sponsored doping and failure to comply compared to issues with individual sports and individual cases of doping no matter how organized the latter was.

Also, regarding Americans and doping, Congress has done full on investigations into baseball when that whole doping controversy happened and there have been backlash against people like Lance Armstrong and others who many people felt betrayed them when they were caught doping and lying about it and received incredible amounts of support.

 

[Willin]

@bardtoob Seriously! I have no idea how/why Stanford became so obsessed with recruiting Olympic athletes other than prestige. It must be a huge pain in the butt for their athletic department. Or Oregon and their Track and Field team!

I don't think the sprinters were fairly punished. They should not be competing at all, particular after multiple failed tests. The fact that some people and media in the U.S. have no problem cheering for proven cheaters is a sign of moral bankruptcy. I'm not advocating for someone like Justin Gatlin to be booed in public like he was at the World Athletics champs this summer, but if people don't find it troubling that he continues to compete, I can't say I can blame the Russians for feeling there is a bit of hypocrisy going on too.

The only reason I'm defending him here is because his punishment wasn't any different from any other person in his discipline in his sport under that sport's governing body.
I don't think it's hypocrisy because he didn't get special treatment by virtue of being American. As seen in that chart I linked to, there are plenty of top sprinters caught doping who were not punished any more harshly than Gatlin. If all of them were banned for life, it would be fair to ban Gatlin and Gay, but since most received the same or similar punishment, I'd say his is fair. A better comparison to demonstrate hypocrisy in banning would be comparing Russia to Jamaica. There's even a discussion of whether the T&F world governing body is covering for Usain Bolt because he's the only one on that list who hasn't been found doping - and that list contains National Team training mates.

 

[ilovepaydays]

@bardtoob Seriously! I have no idea how/why Stanford became so obsessed with recruiting Olympic athletes other than prestige. It must be a huge pain in the butt for their athletic department. Or Oregon and their Track and Field team!

Well, I guess some people consider the $$$$ costs of Stanford justifying someone like Katie Ledecky not taking the sponsorship opportunities. I still think she’s making a mistake. *cough* What happened with Missy Franklin *cough*

—————

I just wish that they at least made the pre/in-competition testing better & faster. They are still re-awarding medals from the 2008 & 2012 Olympics. Ridiculous.

 

[caseyedwards]

Neutral is not an ISU member.

I thought actual evidence of East German doping came after there was no longer a country called DDR, so what country would they have banned?

You can say the same thing about the singles events. No athlete earned their place russia did. So Russia is obviously going to be named neutral for singles so why not team?

 

[IceAlisa]

I do not think state-sponsored programs can be countered from the outside of the country unless they are made a waste of money by catching a stripping any gains from the state-sponsored programs.

How about if the state gets no state glory at the Games?

 

[kwanfan1818]

You can say the same thing about the singles events. No athlete earned their place russia did. So Russia is obviously going to be named neutral for singles so why not team?

I don't know how they plan for this to impact team events in general. I thought the athletes who did not compete under a national flag in the summer Olympics competed in individual events. There is an ISU provision that allows the ISU to appoint athletes, but Olympics are managed by NOC's.

 

[bardtoob]

How about if the state gets no state glory at the Games?

Good question.

I don't know if "state glory" can be summed up in individual medals under a flag or if it has to do with where the people are from that won the medals, regardless of the flag ... Or some other symbolic idea.

 

[ks777]

If Russia is allowed to compete under the neutral flag, they should be forced to use the gay flag just to piss Putin off.

 

[zebraswan]

I don't. I don't feel sorry for any Russian athletes, innocent or guilty. The Russian government have no intention of getting rid of a state sponsored doping system so why should I feel sorry for them, fcuk that.

You don't feel sorry for innocent athletes who are Russian only by accident of birth? Are you American? Would you like to accept the blame for every action of your government? Especially now that the current one is just as corrupt and led by a power mad Putin wannabe (minus about 100 IQ points)? It's easy to sit on your high horse in a country that supposedly is still a democracy with free will and blame athletes who never had a choice in what system they were brought up in.

 

[IceAlisa]

Good question.

I don't know if "state glory" can be summed up in individual medals under a flag or if it has to do with where the people are from that won the medals, regardless of the flag ... Or some other symbolic idea.

Of course it's a huge part of state propaganda, duh!