Ice Dance Requirements for Technical Rules season 2018/19

[nimi]

@nimi thanks, so the only way to compare between this one and the previous one from a few weeks ago would be to have the two versions, as this one reports together all the changes compared to the 2017/18 one.

Yep. I tried to access the earlier version through wayback machine but drew a blank there.

Why didn't I save that earlier pdf on my laptop?!?!

 

[thvu]

Do the underlined or crossed out parts reflect updates compared to the last version?
If so they now included the rocker in the tango key points 3 & 4, which was one of the most debated issues in the 2.5 hrs meeting during Worlds.

Wheee! It was revised today!

We should be prepared for most teams to get level 1 and 2 on the pattern dances!

 

[starrynight]

What is it about this rocker which makes it so hard?

Interesting that there has been a change of mind from it being too hard to include as a key point to now being included.

 

[Willin]

@starrynight I'd be curious to know that as well... Rockers are in almost every dance at the Junior/Senior level, so I don't know what makes this one special. Maybe the foot/edge it's on or the partnering? (I'd have to look at the pattern)

But maybe that's why it's being included as a key point. With so many teams in striking distance of the podium, maybe they want to make things a real challenge for everyone to help separate out that group. Or perhaps with other rule changes aimed at improving artistry, they want to make sure the technical side isn't left behind.

Or, they could've just watched the bloodbath that was the calling at Synchro Worlds and wanted a piece of the action. Then again the synchro committee is moving in the opposite direction: due to similar bloodbaths of too many teams losing too many levels, they're making it easier to achieve level 3s/4s on some elements.

 

[starrynight]

I watched the video of the ice dance meeting from Worlds and I remember some coaches arguing strongly to have the rocker included as a key point.

 

[chameleonster]

Fabian Bourzat argued very strongly in favor of keeping the rocker as a key point because it would separate the teams, and those that were able to do it should get rewarded for it.

 

[starrynight]

Fabian Bourzat argued very strongly in favor of keeping the rocker as a key point because it would separate the teams, and those that were able to do it should get rewarded for it.

Has the rocker always been counted, back when it has been a compulsory dance?

 

[morqet]

Has the rocker always been counted, back when it has been a compulsory dance?

In a different way. For compulsory dances, the pattern was divided into 2 or 3 sections, each section was given a value, and the judges gave GOE for it, but there weren't key points or different levels for each section. So if a couple missed the rocker, they'd get -GOE, but starting from the same base value as a team that hit it.

 

[thvu]

Has the rocker always been counted, back when it has been a compulsory dance?

If you watch the Tango Romanticas from the 2010 Olys, none of the teams did it correctly. Davis and White’s was pariticularly bad for a team that medaled.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

If you watch the Tango Romanticas from the 2010 Olys, none of the teams did it correctly. Davis and White’s was pariticularly bad for a team that medaled.

Sometimes I think the key point system isn’t ideal, and more often than that I miss compulsories, and then I remember how compulsories used to be scored I think it’s fair to say that those in 2010 would probably have focused more closely on that turn if competing now.

It’ll be interesting to see how strict tech panels are with this, because this will be a challenge and a lot of good teams will be looking at Level 2s. I’m for it! But I do also remember Level 4s being awarded for Finnstep key points skated on blatant flats and some weird calls this Olympics so it might come down to how consistent callers are with it.

 

[RoseRed]

If you watch the Tango Romanticas from the 2010 Olys, none of the teams did it correctly. Davis and White’s was pariticularly bad for a team that medaled.

Hopefully more of them will get it right when it's the only pattern they're focusing on vs multiple CDs in a season. But who knows.

 

[VGThuy]

Callers will do what they want anyway and the chosen teams will be given levels they may not deserve and it’s tough sh*t for everyone’s else.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

Callers will do what they want anyway and the chosen teams will be given levels they may not deserve and it’s tough sh*t for everyone’s else.

I really think there needs to be a way to hold tech panels more accountable but the ISU probably has less than zero interest in that.

 

[Anyasnake]

If you watch the Tango Romanticas from the 2010 Olys, none of the teams did it correctly. Davis and White’s was pariticularly bad for a team that medaled.

Comparing the top 3 CDs in 2010, the emphasis was really on the cleanliness, overall execution and portraying on the dance. Domnina/Shabalin had excellent lines and portraying of it, Virtue/Moir were very powerful and had great round on their edges and Davis/White were powerful too but somehow scratchy to me (?). That won't do for the new system with Key Points though, it won't be tolerated.

 

[mollymgr]

I don't recall seeing the PDF which stated the proposals. I just remember seeing it in the powerpoint.

 

[thvu]

Comparing the top 3 CDs in 2010, the emphasis was really on the cleanliness, overall execution and portraying on the dance. Domnina/Shabalin had excellent lines and portraying of it, Virtue/Moir were very powerful and had great round on their edges and Davis/White were powerful too but somehow scratchy to me (?). That won't do for the new system with Key Points though, it won't be tolerated.

Davis & White were a hot mess. All speed with no finesse and some really wobbly edges from Meryl. I know at that point the CDs were more or less a joke, but I still think D&W were shockingly bad. I'm not saying Belbin & Agosto were that great, but D&W placing above them was pure politics IMO.

 

[Zazy]

Davis & White were a hot mess. All speed with no finesse and some really wobbly edges from Meryl. I know at that point the CDs were more or less a joke, but I still think D&W were shockingly bad. I'm not saying Belbin & Agosto were that great, but D&W placing above them was pure politics IMO.

Did it really get worse? Ice dance scoring has always been highly political, especially in CDs, and D/W came in as US #1 with lots of momentum. I'm not sure what happened behind the scenes but agree B/A were clearly better in the CD, and better overall as well.

 

[Anyasnake]

Davis & White were a hot mess. All speed with no finesse and some really wobbly edges from Meryl. I know at that point the CDs were more or less a joke, but I still think D&W were shockingly bad. I'm not saying Belbin & Agosto were that great, but D&W placing above them was pure politics IMO.

That wasn't their greatest moment of the Games (to me anyway) but if CDs were politics (you have to get your US#1 in 1st) D/W would have been 2nd after the OD anyway, their Bollywood was too good.

 

[casken]

If you watch the Tango Romanticas from the 2010 Olys, none of the teams did it correctly. Davis and White’s was pariticularly bad for a team that medaled.

Oh, has enough time finally passed so we're allowed to talk about how overmarked D&W were in the CD in 2010?

The marking of the entire event was a joke, tbh. DomShabs overmarked in the OD and FD, D&W overmarked in the CD and FD, B&A overmarked in the OD, DelSchoes undermarked in all three phases and pushed out of the final FD group, etc. V&M's win was the only thing that made sense.

 

[VGThuy]

The scoring of that whole competition was screwy. However, other than V/M's OD + FD, D/W's OD, F/S's performances generally, and possibly DelSchoes' FD (though they were messier than I remembered), I don't think people really were inspired enough by the programs and performances to make a big stink about anything other than to laugh at how it all turned out and moved on. There was a lot of talk about DomShabs' OD but nobody really argues that their bronze should be taken away although Ziggy made me laugh once when he backed me up and went further and said that DomShabs probably should have been about 10th in the FD.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

Oh, has enough time finally passed so we're allowed to talk about how overmarked D&W were in the CD in 2010?

The marking of the entire event was a joke, tbh. DomShabs overmarked in the OD and FD, D&W overmarked in the CD and FD, B&A overmarked in the OD, DelSchoes undermarked in all three phases and pushed out of the final FD group, etc. V&M's win was the only thing that made sense.

I’m still going to wait a good decade before I share my opinions on here regarding D/W’s scores in most of the events they ever competed in honestly, just to be safe

But yes, Vancouver judging was a total mess across the board only given a sheen of legitimacy because the OGM was correct and overshadowed by bafflement at D/S’s OD.

 

[kwanfan1818]

DelSchoes undermarked in all three phases and pushed out of the final FD group,

 

[clairecloutier]

It's been a while since I looked back at the Oly 2010 dance event, except for Meryl/Charlie's Bollywood OD.

Personally I remember watching the CD event at that time and feeling the judges got the top 4 right.

But I felt that Tanith/Ben should have had bronze over DomShabs (who rightfully won the CD but were very overscored in the next 2 segments).

People think Delobel/Schoenfelder deserved to medal? I thought they looked really undertrained and far from their best at that event (quite understandable given the circumstances).

 

[kwanfan1818]

People think Delobel/Schoenfelder deserved to medal?

No one said they deserved to medal, at least in 2010. The objection is that they were dumped from the final group, starting with the CD; they were excellent technical and CD skaters, even if it was clear they were not going to be near medal territory in the FD.

 

[casken]

People think Delobel/Schoenfelder deserved to medal? I thought they looked really undertrained and far from their best at that event (quite understandable given the circumstances).

That's the narrative, but they were still better trained and had a better three phases of the comp than Dom/Shabs who did medal. They also had a really strong OD packed with choreography and connecting moves that they didn't get credit for. DelSchoes at 100% would have been challenging for gold, but in the condition they were in, bronze should have been a fight between them them and B&A, who got socked with a bizarrely weak OD and a potentially good FD that they never quite grew into from Linichuk. Being stuck behind F&S was basically a "get lost" from the judges.

 

[thvu]

Personally I remember watching the CD event at that time and feeling the judges got the top 4 right.

I'll agree in that they got the top two right. D&W's scores were ridiculous.

But I felt that Tanith/Ben should have had bronze over DomShabs (who rightfully won the CD but were very overscored in the next 2 segments).

Domnina & Shabalin should have been out of contention after their disaster OD and FDs. Those programs were like bad jokes. Belbing & Agosto should have had silver IMO. Davis & White's OD was good, but that CD should have put them out of contention for a medal instead of putting them in medal position.

People think Delobel/Schoenfelder deserved to medal? I thought they looked really undertrained and far from their best at that event (quite understandable given the circumstances).

I agree, they were bad for them. Their CD was uncharacteristically weak, but understandable considering their lack of training and how fresh out of pregnancy she was.

 

[thvu]

I'm still not over it either. They had the best FD by far during the 2008-2009 season. The momentum could have gotten them an Oly medal. Instead, we got the craptacular 2009 Worlds. I hate to call a pregnancy a tragedy, but...

 

[VGThuy]

It's amazing how much I loved 2008 Worlds in ice dance, and yet thought 2009 was just awful when one considers OD and FDs combined. I still love watching V/M's 2009 Worlds FD (I think it's my favorite program of theirs) and D/W were electric in the FD though.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Ok @Wyliefan and @Theatregirl1122 , I know you have thoughts about the 2019-2020 rhythm.

Most Broadway type music already has a recognizable beat, e.g. foxtrot. And it's operetta, not opera, right? I don't expect added beats.

A bit late to the party, but it seems pretty clear to me that, when people (including the ISU) think "Broadway," they are thinking Classic Broadway (TM). They're saying the step sequences will be Quickstep/Blues/March/Foxtrot, which is definitely says to me that they are thinking a lot more My Fair Lady and Anything Goes than Dear Evan Hansen and Matilda. (And I'm guessing so is gkelly? Much of Broadway these days does not have a recognizable beat.) Even Phantom or Les Mis would be a stretch as far as quickstep/blues/march/foxtrot

I expect they're thinking a lot more stereotypically than what we normally see on Broadway right now. That being said, there is ROOM for a lot of out of the box thinking, I just don't know that skaters will do it. Hamilton definitely could fit in to this. The Band's Visit with it's mix of Arabic and Israeli sounds would be interesting if you could pull it off. Hairspray definitely has some options. I feel like there should be something in Come From Away. I'd love for someone to skate to something from Waitress, but probably not for those rhythms. Overall, a waltz would be an easier choice for modern Broadway.

I'm much worse at recognizing these rhythms than I am naming shows, but there aren't a lot of big dance shows anymore.

 

[nuge]

other than to laugh at howmShabs probably should have been about 10th in the FD.

I remember Chris/Simon saying how any other olympics D/Shabalin's FD would have been good enough to win olympics but not this one as V/M and D/W were just too good