Ice Dance Requirements for Technical Rules season 2018/19

[Frau Muller]

I'm hoping it signals the return of something like the old OSP. That was one of my favourite incarnations of OD.

Me too! One of my most cherished old tapes (now transferred to DVD) was the Paso Doble OSPs at the 1984 Olympics...one after the other, each a work of art. That’s my go-to DVD on a rainy day.

 

[starrynight]

It occurred to me watching the men's free skate that the 'entertainment bonus' is actually more needed in men's singles.

 

[RoseRed]

It occurred to me watching the men's free skate that the 'entertainment bonus' is actually more needed in men's singles.

Oh man, Nicolas Nadeau would get that every time.

 

[starrynight]

Yes because I watched some of the earlier flights and some of the men put on a real show with interesting programs and then by the time you get to the top, some of the programs are basically jumping to background music.

 

[VGThuy]

I read on Goldenskate that the adopted pattern dances from 2015-2016 are called Tea Time Foxtrot and Maple Leaf March. I know Piper and Paul were trying to come up with a name, and it seems very them.

I like the idea that no +4/+5 GOE are going to be rewarded if there are ANY negative features even if you hit the required 7-8 positive features..

 

[IloveFS]

I guess I'm the opposite. I thought this collection of FDs this season put the ones from 2014 to shame. I didn't really enjoy the FDs from 2014 except for Weaver/Poje's "Maria de Buenos Aires" and Pechelat/Bourzat's "Little Prince" and maybe the first minute of Ilinykh/Katsalapov's FD. Everything else seemed so generic in comparison and I think there was actually a lot more actual dancing this season than in 2014 when ice dance was so clearly element-by-element focused. It's still about the elements but I think teams these days try to really integrate it into a whole thanks to the push by Gadbois.

Wea Po's "Maria de Buenos Aires" program was just brilliant!!! And, I loved Pechelat/Bourzat.... My favourite French ice dance team!!!

 

[thvu]

The ISU Ice Dance Technical Committee Annual Meeting (2.5 hours on March 23, 2018) can be replayed at the same link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7tYDftWFGg

I finally got through this, and wow was the meeting contentious. Watching Bourzat and Barbara was scary!

Coaches seem really unhappy and confused about the “entertainment” bonus. Bourzat was incredibly unhappy (and a bit condescending) about not having the rocker as part of keypoints 3 & 4 of the Tango Romantica. I don’t know the dance to comment, but the technical committee was debating whether or not the step is even possible while Bourzat insisted that it is and that including it would set the teams apart.

 

[VGThuy]

The thing that confused me was that one person seemed unhappy with it but he (and Bourzat) were arguing it should be worth MORE points. Wouldn't that make the issue worse?

 

[thvu]

The thing that confused me was that one person seemed unhappy with it but he (and Bourzat) were arguing it should be worth MORE points. Wouldn't that make the issue worse?

I just couldn't help but LOL at team Shpilband complaining about having to create engaging Free Dances, that 1 point isn't incentive enough to do so, and that Bourzat is pretty much admitting that they don't focus on making engaging programs at all!

 

[Japanfan]

I haven't read this whole thread, but gather that opera/Broadway is the theme for the FD?

If so I'm going to hate it and will probably skip the dance for the entire season, a first for me.

 

[casken]

I finally got through this, and wow was the meeting contentious. Watching Bourzat and Barbara was scary!

You weren't kidding. I wasn't expecting a pissed off Sylvia Nowak.

The most telling thing for me, was that the ISU had a entire panel of people up there trying to explain the "entertaining" rule, and none of them could do it well. Everything they said just opened up more holes and created more questions.

This is going to be a disaster.

I'm curious which coaches and dancers Margaglio supposedly talked to who wanted the rocker out as a keypoint.

 

[VGThuy]

I haven't read this whole thread, but gather that opera/Broadway is the theme for the FD?

If so I'm going to hate it and will probably skip the dance for the entire season, a first for me.

It's going to be the 2019-2020 SD. Setting Operetta/Musical/Broadway as the rhythm is like setting music from the 1960s/70s/80s as a rhythm in that there are really so many different sounds, genres, styles, etc. that it encompasses as Broadway is not really a genre of music but really just theatre where the music is part of the storytelling and different composers throughout the ages have used so many different storytelling techniques, types and genres of music, lyrical structures (some are more poetic and others are more prose), and singing styles that it's hard to say it has "one" sound.

I just couldn't help but LOL at team Shpilband complaining about having to create engaging Free Dances, that 1 point isn't incentive enough to do so, and that Bourzat is pretty much admitting that they don't focus on making engaging programs at all!

Seriously! Of all the things to complain about regarding that bonus point. In theory, it's rewarding teams and choreographers/coaches for doing what they should be doing anyway. The problem is really how it will most likely be unevenly applied, how it may be inconsistently applied (I got a bonus at Cup of China but did not get one at Rosetelecom and then got on at GPF and Euros but did not get one at Worlds), and may end up affecting who medals not the fact that you have to make a program not boring.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

You weren't kidding. I wasn't expecting a pissed off Sylvia Nowak.

The most telling thing for me, was that the ISU had a entire panel of people up there trying to explain the "entertaining" rule, and none of them could do it well. Everything they said just opened up more holes and created more questions.

This is going to be a disaster.

I'm curious which coaches and dancers Margaglio supposedly talked to who wanted the rocker out as a keypoint.

Presumably dancers that can't properly do it I haven't watched that bit of the meeting but I'm so confused at the technical committee debating whether that step is possible. Fabian's right, it should be in. If you can't do it while another team can, tough.

So it seems they think you can't do the rocker correctly without 'losing the integrity' of the dance? That's nonsense.
Why even bother with patterns if not to judge the exactness of the required edges.

 

[VGThuy]

I guess it goes back to pre-IJS days where Platov used to say judges never really looked at if every step was done to the exactness that we require now and that musicality, dance, speed, and sureness of the overall dance was looked at...or something like that.

 

[thvu]

So it seems they think you can't do the rocker correctly without 'losing the integrity' of the dance? That's nonsense.
Why even bother with patterns if not to judge the exactness of the required edges.

From what the technical committee was saying, they were watching "DVDs" of past Tango Romanticas, and my impression was that they found few couples that did the rocker correctly, or to today's standards.

I was looking at some Tango Romanticas from 2010 Olys, and the step is unclear at best from both V&M and D&S.

Virtue & Moir Tango Romantica 2010 Olys​

Domnina & Shabalin Tango Romantica 2010 Olys​

While the LBO exit edges seem correct for both, the entrance edges are not clearly LFO for either couple, but rather, LFI or Flats at best. I can see where the technical committee could look at such high caliber dancers as V&M and D&S and their inability to do this turn correctly as a reason to exclude it from the keypoints. Most couples would get no higher than L2 on the Tango Romantica if they kept the rocker as part of keypoints 3 and 4.

Of course, if couples were forced to do the step correctly to garner levels, more and more couples would focus on doing the step correctly, so I understand the argument for keeping it as well.

 

[VGThuy]

It is interesting to note that Bourzat and Fusar-Poli were in favor of including the rocker as a key point being former top ice dancers who probably would sympathize more than anyone if the rocker was as difficult as the technical committee felt it was. Not many teams got level 4s in the rhumba pattern back in 2011-2012 either but it seemed more teams were able to do it at least once this season.

 

[clairecloutier]

There are 2400 views of the meeting on YouTube! I think that's pretty cool & shows a serious level of interest among fans in ice dance governance. (See, the ISU thinks we're not interested in these things. But we are. )

Now I just have to sit down and watch myself. At 2.5 hours, it'll take me a while to get through this one ....

 

[Deleted member 74551]

From what the technical committee was saying, they were watching "DVDs" of past Tango Romanticas, and my impression was that they found few couples that did the rocker correctly, or to today's standards.

I was looking at some Tango Romanticas from 2010 Olys, and the step is unclear at best from both V&M and D&S.

Virtue & Moir Tango Romantica 2010 Olys​

Domnina & Shabalin Tango Romantica 2010 Olys​

While the LBO exit edges seem correct for both, the entrance edges are not clearly LFO for either couple, but rather, LFI or Flats at best. I can see where the technical committee could look at such high caliber dancers as V&M and D&S and their inability to do this turn correctly as a reason to exclude it from the keypoints. Most couples would get no higher than L2 on the Tango Romantica if they kept the rocker as part of keypoints 3 and 4.

Of course, if couples were forced to do the step correctly to garner levels, more and more couples would focus on doing the step correctly, so I understand the argument for keeping it as well.

Yes, I thought that final point made in the meeting was a good one. Plenty of teams had to focus on getting that final Rhumba key point nailed before the Olys IE but got there in the end. I imagine the teams in 2010 would have approached the compulsory differently if they had to hit those specific edges for levels. I'm with Fabian in that it is a sport and excluding a turn that could really differentiate the skill of teams in a non-subjective way, especially if this entertainment nonsense passes, isn't the best idea.

 

[vireo]

With the choreographic slide, do you think we can see the return of these moves?
https://youtu.be/94PMD_1zmNU?t=172

I'm okay with knee sliding in synch. That's pretty cool. But the knee dragging bothers me (one partner dragging another on their knees around the ice)

Communication 2148 specifies that the choreographic slide must be done by both partners and at the same time. So those moves where one skater is dragging the other would be prohibited. Rotating is allowed, so I think the synchronous turns on the knees U/Z did would be permitted.

Also, the slides can be "on any part of the body". I'm going to be very, very disappointed if this doesn't result in some interesting and unusual moves.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Also, the slides can be "on any part of the body". I'm going to be very, very disappointed if this doesn't result in some interesting and unusual moves.

we're heading for a new type of 3-part spin sequence..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUXc8LXp2dM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIqbhgBvzHE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNH3hOt6iM4

 

[casken]

Also, the slides can be "on any part of the body". I'm going to be very, very disappointed if this doesn't result in some interesting and unusual moves.

The wording of that rule, combined with the "as long as it doesn't come to a full stop" that's also mentioned, makes it sound like the kind of whole body slides we sometimes see in exhibitions would be legal now as long as the dancers get up of it before coming to a stop?

 

[caseyedwards]

I would say Britney Spears toxic or shut up and dance are totally tango if ed sheeran is Latin!

 

[starrynight]

What could possibly go wrong with a full body slide lol.

 

[MacMadame]

That's why it will be so awesome!

 

[shah]

The entertainment bonus/deduction seems so bizarre to me that I really hope this new regulation will not be enforced. I agree with @Tak - how can one measure entertainment if it's so subjective? Some enjoy floaty dreamy ballets on ice, some prefer Latin themes, some enjoy musicals - to each their own. Indeed, it's so vague that it may easily open a Pandora's box of doubts and concerns.

Shame about the 2020 sd (or, rather, rd) to have no pattern. I like the idea of Broadway/operetta theme, but the pessimist in me expects a wide range of POTO/Chicago/MR! interpretations, as if we didn't have to go through a host of such programmes before . Hope dies last, maybe coaches and choreographers will reach (not for the gun-the gun-the gun ) for some less exploited music selections! And not their standard 5 cds.

 

[mollymgr]

I enjoyed the discussion. I thought Fabian and Valter Rizzo had valid points. I understand where the ISU wants to go with the rules. They are attempting to quantify the program as a whole which is missing currently from the system. But there are 9 judges and in reality the coaches/skaters will have to cater to appealing to the majority of those judges. As Fabian pointed out, what could be entertaining to younger folks may not be entertaining to an older audience. This is just as bad as the "uplifting" FD rule used to be. IMO "entertainment" is an unfortunate word to use in something that is a sport. They should definitely rename it to Overall Bonus or something along those lines.
It also seemed like they were trying to give that to those teams that may not have the best tech or PCS but the overall program was good. I would have to see how this works out. It comes down to points. Why would I work on getting that +1 bonus when I can try getting higher levels and improving the quality of my elements to increase my tech score instead? Even if the whole program wasn't entertainment bonus worthy, my tech could get me more than +1 points. I'll have to see the rule in action. Maybe they will prove me wrong.
By the end of that video, I wanted to give them ALL an entertainment bonus for providing so much over ice dance rules. Can they make this $hit any more complicated than it is? Oh yes, they can!

 

[nimi]

Revised version is out: https://www.isu.org/communications/16863-isu-communication-2148/file

I think the entertainment bonus is gone now?

ETA: Does somebody remember (or have the earlier pdf saved so they could go back and check) whether these clarifications re: choreo lift vs. choreo spinning move are new to this version? I don't recall this 3s minimum time limit for the choreo lift and a 2 rotation max limit for the spinny thingy from before -- was the earlier limit 1 rotation? -- but I'm not going to trust my memory on this.

▪ Choreographic Lift: Dance Lift of minimum 3 seconds and up to ten (10) seconds, performed after all the other required Dance Lifts

• Choreographic Spinning Movement: spinning movement performed anywhere in the program, during which both partners perform at least 2 continuous rotations in any hold, The following requirements apply
- on one foot or two feet or one partner being elevated for less than 2 rotations, or a combination of the three,
- on a common axis which may be moving.

 

[levineismine]

Do the underlined or crossed out parts reflect updates compared to the last version?
If so they now included the rocker in the tango key points 3 & 4, which was one of the most debated issues in the 2.5 hrs meeting during Worlds.

 

[nimi]

Do the underlined or crossed out parts reflect updates compared to the last version?
If so they now included the rocker in the tango key points 3 & 4, which was one of the most debated issues in the 2.5 hrs meeting during Worlds.

I would think that the underlined/crossed out parts mainly reflect updates compared to the latest "official" ISU communication i.e. the 2017/18 one, not to the earlier/preliminary version of this 2018/19 one.

So some (e.g. the sentence "and must not wear tights" being crossed out on the last page) are the same they were in the version we were discussing earlier on in this thread, while others (like the rocker key point thing you noticed) are brand new additions/changes made after the meeting.

 

[levineismine]

@nimi thanks, so the only way to compare between this one and the previous one from a few weeks ago would be to have the two versions, as this one reports together all the changes compared to the 2017/18 one.
The rocker one stood out to me as I remember the debate. The 'entertainment bonus', if removed, would be the other big change.