Ice Dance Technical Requirements 2022/23

sap5

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This crud must have messed with peoples brains. Tell me without Virtue and Moir and without Andrew Poje what authentic latin will we be seeing? Help!!
I was never a fan of Weaver/Poje, but their authentically cheesy 2012 Latin SD was one of my favorite programs that season.
 

EdgyIceMarks

New Member
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7
It is 2 different difficult turns done per partner at different times. -4 turns
Yes and this is halved from the previous Style C Pst that teams had to do.

From Communication 2315:
PATTERN DANCE TYPE STEP SEQUENCE
Characteristics of Levels Style C
(...)
Level 4
Footwork, for each partner, includes at least 4 different Types of Difficult Turns (one of which may be a “Double Twizzle”) (Only the first four attempted Different Difficult Turns are considered for level)
(...)
Previously teams had to do 4 difficult turns done per partner during the PSt, so 8 turns total.

I know that this is the Level 4 requirement for the Style C Pst while the Latin Style D Pst has 2 turns per partner as a minimum requirement, but the 2022-23 tech requiements also says that only the first two attempted Different Difficult Turns per partner out of Rk/Ct/Cho/FO-Mo are considered for level (i.e. more difficult turns of these kind don't count), which seems to imply that unless they specify Brackets or Twizzles or other categories of potentially difficult turns elsewhere, the clean execution of these 4 turns would directly correspond to the highest level requirements for PSt (at least in the inspection of difficult turns), which is a watering down of requirements compared to previous ones.
 
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MacMadame

Doing all the things
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This year, all of these new dance technical requirements as listed above herein are just about foreign to me. I wonder if the average dance fan can follow any of these new ideas and if I or they will be able to follow ice dancing as a fan any more. Or will we just hear, so and so won, and sadly wonder how it was scored, how they picked medalists & winners...
As someone whose dance knowledge is also aging (I used to see every CD performed at least once and up to 3 times every Sunday for 7 years but that's 15 years ago and there are at least 3 new CDs since then), I would say it's not necessary to get this technical if you don't want to.

I watch the dancing and I can say most of the time what level a twizzle sequence will get but I know I don't know all the rules, just some of them. The same with the dance/choreo spins, the lifts, etc. (I just count how many things look hard :D) The same with whether something will get + or - GOE. You just get a feel if you watch all the teams at a lot of events. And the tracker helps a lot too.

Some people love all the technical details and it enhances their fandom and some don't want to know anything but how a dance makes them feel and everything in between. (I'm in between.)
 

mackiecat

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1,774
Yes and this is halved from the previous Style C Pst that teams had to do.

From Communication 2315:

Previously teams had to do 4 difficult turns done per partner during the PSt, so 8 turns total.

I know that this is the Level 4 requirement for the Style C Pst while the Latin Style D Pst has 2 turns per partner as a minimum requirement, but the 2022-23 tech requiements also says that only the first two attempted Different Difficult Turns per partner out of Rk/Ct/Cho/FO-Mo are considered for level (i.e. more difficult turns of these kind don't count), which seems to imply that unless they specify Brackets or Twizzles or other categories of potentially difficult turns elsewhere, the clean execution of these 4 turns would directly correspond to the highest level requirements for PSt (at least in the inspection of difficult turns), which is a watering down of requirements compared to previous ones.
We haven’t seen the full dance tech panel, however the 4 turns align to the 4 Key points of the pattern dance.
 

barbk

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7,533
I'm in no technique when it comes to dance, but I have picked up some better knowledge with some of the explainers this year. There was one on twizzle levels that was great, and another on lifts.

I still get a pretty decent sense from looking at speed/power, smoothness and speed of lift entrances/exits, interesting pairs spin positioning/entrances/exits, edging, and character/interpretation. I'd have a miserable time trying to assess novice or junior teams with loads of errors, but the senior teams seem to sort out reasonably close to my impressions.

I wish the ISU would incent pairs teams to do more interesting pairs spins that some of the dance couples have invented.
 

MacMadame

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We haven’t seen the full dance tech panel, however the 4 turns align to the 4 Key points of the pattern dance.
Which is something that has always bugged me. Not every dance has 4 key points. Trying to cram a pattern into a uniform scoring system like that doesn't really work unless you want to ignore that some dances have more than 4 key points and some have less.
 

GoneWithTheWind

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136
This may be for this year only as the pattern dance was suppose to be the Maple March
We can't have the Maple Leaf March in seniors until Gilles/Poirier are officially retired (because they created it). I did think a couple of years ago it was rumoured to be appearing in juniors soon though?
 

MacMadame

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We can't have the Maple Leaf March in seniors until Gilles/Poirier are officially retired (because they created it). I did think a couple of years ago it was rumoured to be appearing in juniors soon though?
Is that a real rule? I mean it sounds like it could be. 🤷‍♀️
 

thvu

Usova's Apprentice
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If I want to see "assisted jumps" I'll watch pairs.
Torville & Dean's Olympic version of Face the Music had what would be considered Choreographic Assisted Jumps. I wonder if the technical committee went back through older programs and were inspired by T&D to create this element. I'd like to think they weren't inspired by pairs throws... (🙏)

One thing that's going to come out in a subsequent Q&A is how to define "assisted", but I think this element has alot of potential.
 

GoneWithTheWind

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136
Is that a real rule? I mean it sounds like it could be. 🤷‍♀️
I've not gone through the ISU regulations to check, but I've heard it mentioned several time when that and the Teatime Foxtrot (created by K/S) have come up as pattern options. Also, to me, it wouldn't really be fair to allow the creators of the pattern to compete their own creation.

ETA: just realised @Karen-W confirmed in the post above. I missed that before I replied, sorry!
 

litenkyckling

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462
Torville & Dean's Olympic version of Face the Music had what would be considered Choreographic Assisted Jumps. I wonder if the technical committee went back through older programs and were inspired by T&D to create this element. I'd like to think they weren't inspired by pairs throws... (🙏)

One thing that's going to come out in a subsequent Q&A is how to define "assisted", but I think this element has alot of potential.
I’d love to know if K/R’s opening move in their 2019/20 FD would be counted under this
 

overedge

Mayor of Carrot City
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33,345
Gosh, I remember Torvill and Dean littered their Free Dances with them, and they really added to the programs.

As far as I remember T&D didn't do anything that would come close to a 1 1/2 revolution jump. I don't mind a hop or brief lift while the partners are in a hold, like in ballroom dancing, but I don't want to see dance turn into a less-demanding version of pairs.
 

Yuri

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726
As far as I remember T&D didn't do anything that would come close to a 1 1/2 revolution jump. I don't mind a hop or brief lift while the partners are in a hold, like in ballroom dancing, but I don't want to see dance turn into a less-demanding version of pairs.
Oh yes they did! At roughly the 3:43-3:44 mark of this CBS broadcast of their free dance, Torvill & Dean did a "throw axel" :rofl: about half-way through their final Quickstep sequence that arguably was a rules violation and one of their deductions (Chris later explained that while Jayne did rotate 1 1/2 times, he also revolved half a revolution to keep it legal...)


And yes, T&D's Face The Music and Dance was the first program that popped in my head as an example of assisted jumps (or mini-lifts) and there are other examples within it.

I wish the ISU were adding more compulsory dances to senior free dance, not less. I would prefer the ISU to dump the entire Rhythm Dance and replace it with couples skating a pattern of two different compulsories, with original footwork at the beginning and end of the program, and with a transition between the CDs that could include a major lift. Permits dancers to select two out of four traditional CDs to combine for an "Original Compulsory Dance" or something like that. Alas, we are going the other direction.
 

thvu

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As far as I remember T&D didn't do anything that would come close to a 1 1/2 revolution jump. I don't mind a hop or brief lift while the partners are in a hold, like in ballroom dancing, but I don't want to see dance turn into a less-demanding version of pairs.
There’s no requirement for the jumps to have revolutions. The 1.5 revs is the max allowed.
 

Dobre

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I don't think the casual viewer is going to show up to watch compulsories, but I also don't think the casual viewer even recognizes that there is a repeated pattern when they watch rhythm dances. (That is, they don't except when the commentator points it out).

Regardless, if the choice of street dances for the RD couldn't convince the TV here to cover the Worlds RD this season (boo! to the broadcasters), then removing the pattern certainly won't do it.

All of this is rather bizarre as, generally speaking, I find that casual or novice viewers in a live audience find the dance events more entertaining than the singles.
 

overedge

Mayor of Carrot City
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There’s no requirement for the jumps to have revolutions. The 1.5 revs is the max allowed.

That the ISU found it necessary to set a maximum suggests that dance teams are going to do jumps with revolutions.
 

overedge

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Oh yes they did! At roughly the 3:43-3:44 mark of this CBS broadcast of their free dance, Torvill & Dean did a "throw axel" :rofl: about half-way through their final Quickstep sequence that arguably was a rules violation and one of their deductions (Chris later explained that while Jayne did rotate 1 1/2 times, he also revolved half a revolution to keep it legal...)

And they got hammered by the judges for it. Which is why I didn't mention it as an example of what I was thinking of.
 

mackiecat

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Good example @Yuri there are lots of assisted jumps in that program (starting with the 1/2 jumps to lunges) there is another cool one where Jane jumps 2 times and Chris the last.

watching this free dance makes me think that the free dances of those days are really just all made up of choreo moves of today’s programs.
 

thvu

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That the ISU found it necessary to set a maximum suggests that dance teams are going to do jumps with revolutions.
A poster mentioned T&D’s Free Dances being “littered” with assisted jumps. You responded that nothing came close to 1.5 revs. I responded saying revolutions weren’t a requirement. I’m really unsure of the argument/point you were trying to make responding to the original post by @skatfan and your response to me is even more confusing. :confused:
 

overedge

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A poster mentioned T&D’s Free Dances being “littered” with assisted jumps. You responded that nothing came close to 1.5 revs. I responded saying revolutions weren’t a requirement. I’m really unsure of the argument/point you were trying to make responding to the original post by @skatfan and your response to me is even more confusing. :confused:

My point in responding to @skatfan was that my understanding of "assisted jumps" was like hops or whatever they're called in ballroom dancing. If revolutions aren't required, then what is a jump other than hopping up and down in one place? If there's a rule about the maximum number of revolutions, then the ISU seems to be assuming that skaters are going to be turning when they jump.
 

beepbeep

Krud Karen
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6,797
This crud must have messed with peoples brains. Tell me without Virtue and Moir and without Andrew Poje what authentic latin will we be seeing? Help!!
The very same level of authentic latin the aforementioned people brought to the ice: zero.

But, to be fair, the amount of authentic latin dance we’ve seen in ice dance overall since its inception is zero :slinkaway
 

mackiecat

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1,774
My point in responding to @skatfan was that my understanding of "assisted jumps" was like hops or whatever they're called in ballroom dancing. If revolutions aren't required, then what is a jump other than hopping up and down in one place? If there's a rule about the maximum number of revolutions, then the ISU seems to be assuming that skaters are going to be turning when they jump.
For a long time ago the free dance allows jumps of max 1 rotation. This is why the original V/M swan dismount was made illegal as it was over 1 rotation.
 

thvu

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My point in responding to @skatfan was that my understanding of "assisted jumps" was like hops or whatever they're called in ballroom dancing. If revolutions aren't required, then what is a jump other than hopping up and down in one place? If there's a rule about the maximum number of revolutions, then the ISU seems to be assuming that skaters are going to be turning when they jump.
So, you’re making an assumption that isn’t text-based? And then commenting on how someone else’s observation doesn’t match your assumption? :huh:

The technical committee created this element. The rules were crafted based on whatever they wanted it to be and not be. You’re assuming that the ISU allowed 1.5 revs because the ISU is “assuming skaters are going to be turning when they jump”, but they’re only going to do so because the rules say they can.

There are many examples in ballet of assisted jumps that involve no revolutions. Why are you assuming the inspiration is strictly ballroom? The assumption is clearly that some will turn, some will not. Your whole thought thread here is hard to follow, and it’s still very unclear how your point of view is at all based in the text, and instead seems to come from an unsubstantiated preconceived notion.
 

Yuri

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726
This Russian article decries the new ISU technical dance rules allowing jumps as another step towards combining ice dancing and pairs skating, apparently a long-time goal of Lakernik. Strange to occur in a year where Russians may not attend the ISU meetings!

Here's the Sport-Express article plus a Google-translated excerpt from it:

Lakernik's ideas come to life even without his participation​

No, we are not joking or exaggerating. ISU did allow dancers to perform jump elements with the help of an assisting partner. Thus, the International Skating Union introduced a new choreographic element for ice dancing. The rules have already been posted on the organization's website. The following requirements will be imposed on the element: at least three jumps in a row (identical or different), the jump should be no more than one and a half revolutions, separation from the ice during execution should not exceed three seconds in time, between jumps there can be no more than three steps. Thus, ice dancing takes another step towards pair skating, and after all, at one time, ISU Vice President Alexander Lakernik, responsible in the organization for the regulation of judging in figure skating, proposed to combine the two disciplines into one ...
 

MacMadame

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My point in responding to @skatfan was that my understanding of "assisted jumps" was like hops or whatever they're called in ballroom dancing. If revolutions aren't required, then what is a jump other than hopping up and down in one place? If there's a rule about the maximum number of revolutions, then the ISU seems to be assuming that skaters are going to be turning when they jump.
When I read this new rule, I thought of the free dance I was working on with my coach when I quit skating. I basically hopped from his left side to his right as he gave me some lift. So it was more like Arabian pulls. I guess that would be half a revolution?

I honestly can't picture what the ISU is saying so if someone has a video of skaters doing these 1.5 or less assisted jumps, that would be great.

a long-time goal of Lakernik. Strange to occur in a year where Russians may not attend the ISU meetings!
It's not strange. These rules were worked on long before Russian skaters and officials were banned. Either he convinced enough others of his views or the process was too far along to change it.
 

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