I, Tonya

[bardtoob]

I, Tonya was like camping out for a planned train wreck.

It was probably hardest to see Tonya's father leave Tonya's mother and leaving elementary school age Tonya crying in the street in the process.

It was plain sad that Tonya, the character, was so available that the first guy to check her out would be her first date, first intimate partner, first husband, etc. Most of the time even the people with low self-esteem have enough self-esteem to be slutty. Tonya must have just felt literally worthless.

Sebastian Stan is far more attractive before the movie begins than after the movie is over. Winter soldier strong to Does-Vegan-Wrong weak.

The movie gave me a very flat feeling. It is like when a major disaster happens, and the feeling of permanence starts replacing disbelief.

I have never seen Tonya's 1986 SA SP, only the LP. Did she really skate to ZZ Top in the SP? I know that the judges did give the competition to Tiffany Chin for no good reason.

I do think Shawn, Derrick, and Shane were THAT stupid.

I liked the footage of the real Tonya and other characters during the credits.

Robbie did look comfortable on the ice.

I think Robbie did better than Janney. It is because LaVona is more frighteningly intelligent than Janney portrayed her ... Except when Janney portrayed LaVona putting up satin ropes on her lawn to keep the reporters in line, which the reporters obeyed

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I have never seen Tonya's 1986 SA SP, only the LP. Did she really skate to ZZ Top in the SP? I know that the judges did give the competition to Tiffany Chin for no good reason.

The Wikepedia page dedicated to Skate America 1986 is a little frustrating in that the ladies event is the only division which doesn't detail exact placements in compulsories, the short and the free.

Compared to Chin's free skate and her scores in comparison to Harding's performance, Tonya definitely won the free, moving up to second overall.

The movie annoyed me a few times, because if Tonya did in fact skate to ZZ Top, why were vocals used to highlight that fact? Music with lyrics wasn't allowed until last season in singles.

Also, the same arena (with the giveaway honeycomb squares ceiling) is used for every competition.

 

[Inessence]

Tonya’s father also really left her at 16, not 12. She did have to go back and live with her mother and new stepfather though, which had to have sucked. But the visual image of the little girl crying was definitely artistic license. More of a gut punch than a angry, sullen and brooding teenage Robbie would have been.

 

[Erin]

I have never seen Tonya's 1986 SA SP, only the LP. Did she really skate to ZZ Top in the SP? I know that the judges did give the competition to Tiffany Chin for no good reason.

The Wikepedia page dedicated to Skate America 1986 is a little frustrating in that the ladies event is the only division which doesn't detail exact placements in compulsories, the short and the free.

Compared to Chin's free skate and her scores in comparison to Harding's performance, Tonya definitely won the free, moving up to second overall.

It's stated during the commentary for the free skate that Harding won the short program at 86 Skate America. So the reason the judges "gave" the competition to Chin was figures. Which we have no way of knowing whether they were judged fairly or not. But in the short and free skate, Tonya got the marks she deserved and won both programs. Another instance of artistic license in the movie.

 

[berthesghost]

Gee, does IMDb list actors for tiffany, Kristi and Michelle that like Midori never show up in the final cut? Or was there a disclaimor at the beginning “no Asians were represented in this revisionist history” that I missed? Or has Robbie been selling this in interviews as a nod to Hitchcock: just blond heroine battling a brunette nemesis?

I’ve already poked fun at the movie’s depiction of tonya’s unfair loss to Bradie T. at 86 SA, but as a whole it makes sense as a depiction of how Tonya saw her career and life. Instead of being happy she won the sp and lp and silver, she convinced herself she “wuz robbed” and of course it’s all because she’s poor and people look down on her, so f them!

 

[bardtoob]

It's stated during the commentary for the free skate that Harding won the short program at 86 Skate America. So the reason the judges "gave" the competition to Chin was figures. Which we have no way of knowing whether they were judged fairly or not. But in the short and free skate, Tonya got the marks she deserved and won both programs. Another instance of artistic license in the movie.

Yeah, I remember Tiffany skating like crap in the LP but the commentator was announcing Tiffany's win before her program was even over. This always grated on me.

I guess it is possible that the field was so bad that the judges could not place Tiffany lower, but it was easy to tell Tiffany's career was over. She could hardly do triples of any kind, although it was the triples that got her attention in the first place.

The commentary was also interesting because Agnes Gosslin of France was briefly ahead of Tonya before Tiffany skated despite Tonya finishing 2nd.

Did the judges use a weird trick, like place Tonya 2nd behind Agnes but ahead of Tiffany in the LP so Tiffany would win ?

 

[Erin]

Yeah, I remember Tiffany skating like crap in the LP but the commentator was announcing Tiffany's win before her program was even over. This always grated on me.

I guess it is possible that the field was so bad that the judges could not place Tiffany lower, but it was easy to tell Tiffany's career was over. She could hardly do triples of any kind, although it was the triples that got her attention in the first place.

The commentary was also interesting because Agnes Gosslin of France was briefly ahead of Tonya before Tiffany skated despite Tonya finishing 2nd.

Did the judges use a weird trick, like place Tonya 2nd behind Agnes but ahead of Tiffany in the LP so Tiffany would win ?

No, otherwise Tonya wouldn't have beat Agnes overall. The reason Tonya was behind Agnes before Tiffany skated but ahead of Agnes after was because Tiffany finished in between Agnes and Tonya in the free skate, thus allowing Tonya to move ahead overall.

Tonya must have been way down in figures. But it's hard to portray that in a movie.

ETA - back to ZZ top, I find it highly unlikely Tonya would be skating to anything like that back then because Diane always had Tonya skating to classical music pre-Dody (and movie soundtracks post-Dody). It was Dody that let her skate to the edgier stuff.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

Tonya must have been way down in figures. But it's hard to portray that in a movie.

No tea no shade no pink lemonade, but it was kind of hard for them to portray even basic things in the movie. I actually shudder to think of what fallacies would have been created if they had introduced figures.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

It is clear from the marks Tonya easily won the LP. She must have been behind Agnes since Agnes was 2nd in the LP to Tonya up until that point (since the field must have really sucked) then when Tiffany moved into 2nd in the LP over Agnes it bumped Agnes to 3rd behind Tiffany. Tonya was too far back to win unless others came between her and Tiffany and the field must have been too weak for that. I would have laughed if Tiffany had been placed 3rd in the LP behind Agnes and dropped to 3rd overall behind both Tiffany and Agnes. I agree it was a joke the commentators were crowing about her certain win as if she were this godly skater when it was clear her career was coming to an end with that joke of technical content she was now putting out.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

It's really too bad Tiffany Chin was too far behind after figures to win a medal in Sarajevo.

But on the bright side, even after her jumps went AWOL she was able to win a couple of World bronze medals. (And I think one of those were after a 1 clean triple free skate IIRC?)

 

[skatingguy]

So according to this website the final standings were:
Chin - 3.4
Harding - 6.2
Gosselin - 6.6
http://www.wikiwand.com/fr/Skate_America_1986
I don't remember what the break down was in 1986 between figures, short, and free programs to figure out what these numbers would mean in terms of placements in each.

 

[Yazmeen]

Tonya and Tiffany did have one thing in common - mothers from hell.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

Tonya and Tiffany did have one thing in common - mothers from hell.

Also a really unfortunate short bob hairstyle

 

[Yazmeen]

http://www.news.com.au/entertainmen...a/news-story/f65c2521b1cae978718aa493bcda0b4f

 

[gkelly]

So according to this website the final standings were:
Chin - 3.4
Harding - 6.2
Gosselin - 6.6
http://www.wikiwand.com/fr/Skate_America_1986
I don't remember what the break down was in 1986 between figures, short, and free programs to figure out what these numbers would mean in terms of placements in each.

Thanks for finding that.

According to an article I found about figures at 1988 US Nationals, the percentages were "compulsory figures count 30%, the short program 20% and Saturday's long program 50%." They should have been the same in 1986-87.

I think the factor for the freeskate was always 1.0. So that would have been 0.6 for figures (I'm not sure if each of the 3 figures was factored separately at 0.2 each) and 0.4 for short program.

If Harding won both short and long programs (0.4 + 1.0 = 1.4 for those segments combined) and earned 6.2 total, her factored placement for the figures segment must have been 4.8, or 8th place.

If Chin went 1 2 2, her factored placements would be 0.6 + 0.8 + 2.0 = 3.4

Gosselin could have gone 2 6 3 (1.2 + 2.4 + 3.0) or 4 3 3 (2.4 + 1.2 + 3.0) to total 6.6.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

So according to this website the final standings were:
Chin - 3.4
Harding - 6.2
Gosselin - 6.6
http://www.wikiwand.com/fr/Skate_America_1986
I don't remember what the break down was in 1986 between figures, short, and free programs to figure out what these numbers would mean in terms of placements in each.

It's stated during the commentary for the free skate that Harding won the short program at 86 Skate America. So the reason the judges "gave" the competition to Chin was figures. Which we have no way of knowing whether they were judged fairly or not. But in the short and free skate, Tonya got the marks she deserved and won both programs. Another instance of artistic license in the movie.

Sounds like Tonya must have placed eighth in figures. (0.6 x 8 = 4.8. 0.4 for the short. 1.0 for the free)

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Tracey Damigella placed 4th at Skate America. I found out a while back she competed at (and won) Australian Nationals in 1990. Does someone know if she had Australian citizenship?

 

[cmk]

ITA on all of that. Tonya was definitely the better skater, whether the judges chose to recognize that or not. I also never got the raving about the Kerrigan spiral when she had to yank it up with her hand and still got no higher than Kwan, Cohen, Bobek, Hughes got, probably less high than Cohen and Bobek got in fact. Butyrskaya does a spiral the same way and the commentators moan how terrible her spiral is compared to Kwan, Bobek, or Cohen. I know Kerrigan wasnt competing against those (other than baby Bobek) but still.

I also never got the talk Kerrigan was robbed in Lillehammer when IMO even if she arguably deserved to beat Baiul in the long, Chen and Sato both should have clearly beaten Kerrigan in the LP. Her artistic marks for that junk cheese program were far too high too, she definitely should not have tied Baiul in artistic scores as she did.

Maria Butyrskaya did compete in 93 worlds. She didn't make it out of qualifying that year and I think there was no Russian lady in Lillehamer because of that. It took Maria a long time to regain the respect of the Russian fed due to that as well. I do recall negative comments by Dick on Kirk's spiral too when she was coached by the Scotvolds as well.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Maria Butyrskaya did compete in 93 worlds. She didn't make it out of qualifying that year and I think there was no Russian lady in Lillehamer because of that. It took Maria a long time to regain the respect of the Russian fed due to that as well. I do recall negative comments by Dick on Kirk's spiral too when she was coached by the Scotvolds as well.

ITA on Maria and in part she never recovered from it since except for the 1 year Irina was in garbage form (98-99) she was always Russian #2 or #3, usually behind Slutskaya. This was I am sure in part continued punishment for her failure to get Russia a spot at the 94 Olympics all those years ago and the shame it brought the country. And since it took her years to recover some footing in Russia after that, by the time she became a contender she was mid 20s and considered old while Irina was a teen phenom already. The hilarious thing is she was 1 tenth from an Olympic medal and beat Irina at the 98 Olympics which she would have medaled at easily had she just done that last triple toe or two footed one last jump, was 1 tenth from beating her at the 98 worlds, and was 1 triple salchow from winning the 2000 worlds over both Kwan and Irina despite the Russian fed considering her distant #2 and selling out scores for her in order to buy scores for Irina. And of course the one season Maria was Russian #1 she easily won worlds, no surprise there, it shows what she could have been doing for years if she had Russian #1 backing probably. Now I do acknowledge of course Irina was superior in some areas of her skating than Maria, her jumps generally had more height, and she could do triple-triples at times, and some of her spins were stronger, but still the internal bias between the two was blatantly obvious, just as it was in the other direction for Harding vs Trenary, Kerrigan, or Yamaguchi, most of all Kerrigan.

You are right on Kirk, and the funny thing is the spiral looks exactly like Kerrigan's famed one. Yet when Kirk did it instead it was garbage and lacked extension, LOL!

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

You the man @gkelly! Nice work!

There are some things I like about IJS but there is so much I miss about 6.0 scoring. The marks, the ordinals, the factored placements. Sigh. It was all so blissful.

Oh and regarding Butyrskaya (always one of my faves ), a couple of years ago I was pleasantly surprised to find out she had actually been the 1992 Skate Canada champion showing command in her jump landings that she definitely wasn't known for! I had heard of her long and rocky history with the Russian federation but I just assumed she only started having results in the 95-96 season.

https://youtu.be/wl9yRZOapKc

Little surprises like this always bring me such joy! Not too long ago I found out Diva Tanya Navka competed as a 16-year-old at 1991 Skate America with Samuel Gezelian. As a Soviet! And she won! Then over the next 15 years she represented what seems like 15 other nations, had a baby, and came from "nowhere" to win a couple World titles and the Olympics in 2006 with Roman Kostomorov. Her competition history as a zygote (where she was competing alongside legends such as Klimova/Ponomarenko and Usova/Zhulin) had been completely unknown to me!

https://youtu.be/NUu1QS3nvog

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

At the 1996 World Championships, Maria was landing some gigantic triple axels in practice.

 

[bardtoob]

My understanding is that Butyrskaya's ability in practice was utterly different and significantly more impressive than anything seen in competition other than a few times over a decade and a half in senior competition.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

My understanding is that Butyrskaya's ability in practice was utterly different and significantly more impressive than anything seen in competition other than a few times over a decade and a half in senior competition.

That is typical of many of the Soviet women. I heard the same thing about Kondrashova and Ivanova for years. Voderezova to some extent too.

 

[berthesghost]

http://www.news.com.au/entertainmen...a/news-story/f65c2521b1cae978718aa493bcda0b4f

yeah, one reason why I’m glad I watched the movie is that it does give a glimpse into the lives and loves of the basket full of Deplorables

But the 2nd part does help explain one reason why this “just a movie” irked. It’s one thing to retell history from a different perspective, but Hepburn’s portrayal of Mary of Scotland as kind and misunderstood and a victim of her evil husband and lover wasn’t rubbed in liz’s face with press calling Liz I up at the palace asking what she thought of her assasination plotter’s new found public sympathy as the real victim.

It would be nice if non-fans could just talk about their dislike of Nancy in threads about skating instead of always bringing it up as some sort of gross “the beyotch deserved it” justification for their hero’s criminal activity. Or at least wait until we’re dead until they begin their “see kids, way back in 1994 the sky was green and grass was blue” take on history.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

That is typical of many of the Soviet women. I heard the same thing about Kondrashova and Ivanova for years. Voderezova to some extent too.

I feel bad for laughing about it but poor Kira Ivanova turned in so many unintentionally hilarious programs throughout the 80s. What a gem she was! Such a gift!! <3 <3

 

[meggonzo]

Tonya did skate to ZZ Top at some point. It's always referenced in articles. I'm not sure what program it actually was though.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Tonya did skate to ZZ Top at some point. It's always referenced in articles. I'm not sure what program it actually was though.

Tonya used ZZ Top as part of her free skate for the 1990/91 season, too.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

Tonya did skate to ZZ Top at some point. It's always referenced in articles. I'm not sure what program it actually was though.

Wasn't it part of her 91-92 long program? The end? I'm not really sure as I am probably the furthest thing there is from a ZZ Top connoisseur. But the last part of that program sounds like what they were playing in IT with lyrics. I could be dead wrong though.

 

[meggonzo]

Tonya used ZZ Top as part of her free skate for the 1990/91 season, too.

No that was Batman/Send in the clowns/Tone Loc.

Wasn't it part of her 91-92 long program? The end? I'm not really sure as I am probably the furthest thing there is from a ZZ Top connoisseur. But the last part of that program sounds like what they were playing in IT with lyrics. I could be dead wrong though.

It could be the last part of her 92 LP.

I can't remember the music in the scene in the movie of 86 SA. I do remember being irritated that the had a random rock song at the end of her 91 Nats, instead of Tone Loc!

 

[vesperholly]

She clearly should have made the 89 World team instead of Yamaguchi. It isnt even a question and was a joke and completely political decision. She in fact probably should have won Nationals considering she should have won both the short and long programs and Trenary should have been only 3rd in both, and she was 4th in figures.

Before you wuzrob 1989 Nationals, it might behoove you to rewatch the performances. Not sure why you think Tonya should have won both the SP and the FS. In the SP, Tonya two-footed her 3lutz combo while Yamaguchi's was clean. In the FS, Yamaguchi did two clean 3lutzes and a 3flip, 3loop, two 3toes to Tonya's one two-footed 3lutz, two 3loops: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7gObdzCNfA

Anyone know why the US only sent two ladies to 1989 Worlds? Debi Thomas medaled in 1988, so there should have been three.