I, Tonya

PDilemma said:
It seems that a lot of viewers missed the "faux" in the faux documentary style of the movie.
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I think this is consistent with the general trend of more and more people not being able to read information critically. I was thinking of this yesterday because the woman who wrote the non-ironic Olive Garden review that went viral just wrote about going back to that same Olive Garden. There are also many serious and depressing political examples that are relevant, but I'll skip those and instead mention how lots of people thought Tom Hanks/Forrest Gump actually interacted with historical Americans and, on a personal note, the number of responses to Ivana Komova thinking those interviews were real.

Although I am not particularly interested in whether I, Tonya got all the facts right, I am interested in the real (whatever that means) Tonya Harding as a public figure/contested site of public discourse/subject of sympathy or lack thereof/generator of FSU posts/etc. My guess is that whatever sympathy this movie generates will eventually either become irrelevant or backfire, but if that turns out to be wrong, I'll be the first one to admit it and keep following the discussion either way. To me, it's just a compelling story with so many big themes that I want to analyze: truth, sympathy, justice, gender, class, etc. I want to take a Cultural Studies class on Tonya; one of those free online classes at Yale or Stanford should offer it.

Also, two arguably related additional wishes:

1. I hope to see an FSU poster with the username itonyaoverrated within the next five weeks.
2. Anyone who hasn't seen the Julie Brown version, watch it!
 
That whole angle of Tonya not being good enough and not fitting the "part" kept being used to the point of overkill. Whenever they had her going off on, cursing at, and talking back to any officials I just cringed from embarrassment. It just never happened and isn't a good look to pretend like it did. I'm sure Tonya might not have been the ideal picture of what USFSA wanted in a ladies champion or competitor (although the more I think about it the more I don't even know if that's true), but I don't think she was ever really "held down" by the federation. At least not until maybe 1993 (as I think Tonya probably should have made the World team that season) and by then Tonya had already shown her work ethic was not what it needed to be in order to achieve her best results. Also it's not like Nancy was being propped up over Tonya either because AFAIK despite Nancy being older, she never beat Tonya nationally (or internationally?) until the 91-92 season. Dick Button always spoke of Tonya with respect and admiration and he was certainly not one to bite his tongue when it came to skaters he was not fond of (poor Angela Nikodinov will probably never forget being referred to as a refrigerator break, bless her poor heart). Tonya had huge strengths in her skating that were quite revered and appreciated. This whole revisionist history thing they do in I, Tonya of treating her as some kind of Rodney Dangerfield-esque victim is pretty irksome and tired. I think there were PLENTY of people in the community who were rooting for Tonya and wanted nothing else than for her to live up to her potential. But she shot herself in the foot time and time again. When is enough enough? People rightly got sick of her BS but that had nothing to do with her not coming from the right background or not having the right costumes. And to be honest, I think it's pretty insulting to suggest otherwise. The whole narrative of I, Tonya is incredibly simplified, dumbed-down, and really does favors for no one involved.

It's been said so many times that Tonya was her own worst enemy, and I think that is dead-on. Sometimes the curse of being so talented is that you don't have to work as hard as others and it can lead to bad habits. I think the paranoia and parade of never-ending excuses stemmed from this. It's far easier to make excuses instead of taking responsibility for your own short-comings and failures when it pertains to why you are not achieving better results. If Tonya had truly owned her shit and actually made strides to improve, history would look completely different.
 
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cmk said:
Nancy's looks were one of the reason she became touted as the "ice princess" and led to a lot of her endorsements. She also medalled with a lot of poor free skates (93 nats, 93 worlds, 92 Olympics (Tonya really should of got the bronze there), 92 worlds, 93 pro-am) and was given a lot of breaks because the usfs liked the way she looked. Nancy always came across as phony to me. I did see her live once (not by choice , she just happened to be on the winter coi tour that year with other pros) and Hamill was much older and skated much faster).

Tonya really was a much better skater than Nancy- too bad that wasn't all that mattered. Tonya was the better jumper, better spinner (which covers 6 of the required 8(at the time) elements in the short), had a lot more speed and power, could do the spiral without having to hold her leg, had an awesome ina bauer, and was more musical. She was inconsistent, and wasn't feminine (but that should not have mattered).

Nancy was very slow, had to hold her leg on the spiral, she did have a true lutz and was a decent jumper , her spins were poor, she came across as snooty and entitled, her footwork was so-so , her costumes were elegant but she also had a top name designer giving them to her, and the Scotvolds had more political clout with the usfsa and the judges than Rawlinson or Teachman did.
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ITA on all of that. Tonya was definitely the better skater, whether the judges chose to recognize that or not. I also never got the raving about the Kerrigan spiral when she had to yank it up with her hand and still got no higher than Kwan, Cohen, Bobek, Hughes got, probably less high than Cohen and Bobek got in fact. Butyrskaya does a spiral the same way and the commentators moan how terrible her spiral is compared to Kwan, Bobek, or Cohen. I know Kerrigan wasnt competing against those (other than baby Bobek) but still.

I also never got the talk Kerrigan was robbed in Lillehammer when IMO even if she arguably deserved to beat Baiul in the long, Chen and Sato both should have clearly beaten Kerrigan in the LP. Her artistic marks for that junk cheese program were far too high too, she definitely should not have tied Baiul in artistic scores as she did.
 
Sasha is DIVINE said:
That whole angle of Tonya not being good enough and not fitting the "part" kept being used to the point of overkill. Whenever they had her going off on, cursing at, and talking back to any officials I just cringed from embarrassment. It just never happened and isn't a good look to pretend like it did. I'm sure Tonya might not have been the ideal picture of what USFSA wanted in a ladies champion or competitor (although the more I think about it the more I don't even know if that's true), but I don't think she was ever really "held down" by the federation.
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She clearly should have made the 89 World team instead of Yamaguchi. It isnt even a question and was a joke and completely political decision. She in fact probably should have won Nationals considering she should have won both the short and long programs and Trenary should have been only 3rd in both, and she was 4th in figures.

Yamaguchi was regularly outscoring Tonya when they landed the same jumps even before she developed artistry which with tiny baby jumps, weaker spins, and weaker technical ability and far less speed and power made no sense at all. Even worse when Tonya was much better than Kristi in figures, and it clearly made more sense to promote someone atleast competent in figures while they were going on.

Prior to 89, Tonya was already doing jumps that none of Thomas, Kadavy, or Trenary were capable of and should have been more in contention atleast than she was.

Look at the 93 Nationals short programs which are on youtube. No way did Kerrigan beat her 8 judges to 1 for those skates. And anyone else who was a huge name in U.S skating but Tonia would have been given the benefit of doubt and put on the team over a journeywomen like Kwiatkowski who skated no better than she.

The list is endless but it doesnt take an Einstein to see while Tonya often self sabotoged the federation was definitely against her too. Many higher ups have even confirmed that after the fact.
 
The movie presented Rawlinson as a figure whom some coaches may be able to relate to, with talented but difficult students. Especially athletes, when they reach adulthood, no longer take instruction or training seriously, when distractions such a boys, late nights, and drinking enter the equation.
 
butyrskafanatic said:
She clearly should have made the 89 World team instead of Yamaguchi. It isnt even a question and was a joke and completely political decision. She in fact probably should have won Nationals considering she should have won both the short and long programs and Trenary should have been only 3rd in both, and she was 4th in figures.

Yamaguchi was regularly outscoring Tonya when they landed the same jumps even before she developed artistry which with tiny baby jumps, weaker spins, and weaker technical ability and far less speed and power made no sense at all. Even worse when Tonya was much better than Kristi in figures, and it clearly made more sense to promote someone atleast competent in figures while they were going on.

Prior to 89, Tonya was already doing jumps that none of Thomas, Kadavy, or Trenary were capable of and should have been more in contention atleast than she was.

Look at the 93 Nationals short programs which are on youtube. No way did Kerrigan beat her 8 judges to 1 for those skates. And anyone else who was a huge name in U.S skating but Tonia would have been given the benefit of doubt and put on the team over a journeywomen like Kwiatkowski who skated no better than she.

The list is endless but it doesnt take an Einstein to see while Tonya often self sabotoged the federation was definitely against her too. Many higher ups have even confirmed that after the fact.
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I found watching the movie quite sad. Her Skate America long program from 1991 is still one of my favourites.

Tonya faced so many internal and external road blocks in her life and her career.

Such a wasted talent.
 
I don't think it's cut and dry that Harding should have beat Yamaguchi at 89 Nationals. Jumps aren't everything, but they do count for a lot and Kristi did more triples than Tonya. Tonya two-footed her (only) Lutz pretty badly, whereas Kristi did two clean Lutzes IIRC. Kristi's only jumping error was a turn out on her sal; however my memory is notoriously awful so even though I literally just watched last week I can't remember if Kristi did 6 or 7 triples. In any case, I do think it could have gone either way so I'm not seeing a conspiracy there. And although Kristi was nowhere near the artist she later became, she had a musicality and watchability to her skating even back then. It's also not like Tonya was the second coming of Janet Lynn, artistically. Once we get post-Albertville I definitely agree that Tonya got hosed on quite a few occasions. At that point I do think she was being judged and even punished for her behavior and antics off the ice. Totally.
 
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Sasha is DIVINE said:
I don't think it's cut and dry that Harding should have beat Yamaguchi at 89 Nationals. Jumps aren't everything, but they do count for a lot and Kristi did more triples than Tonya. Tonya two-footed her (only) Lutz pretty badly, whereas Kristi did two clean Lutzes IIRC. Kristi's only jumping error was a turn out on her sal; however my memory is notoriously awful so even though I literally just watched last week I can't remember if Kristi did 6 or 7 triples. In any case, I do think it could have gone either way so I'm not seeing a conspiracy there. And although Kristi was nowhere near the artist she later became, she had a musicality and watchability to her skating even back then. It's also not like Tonya was the second coming of Janet Lynn, artistically. Once we get post-Albertville I definitely agree that Tonya got hosed on quite a few occasions. At that point I do think she was being judged and even punished for her behavior and antics off the ice. Totally.
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Krist even beat Tonya in the short program when both skated cleanly with a triple lutz-double toe. Which is ridiculous. Since back then Kristi had no artistry at all (I am not saying Tonya had much artistry either btw, just that if the artisty is a wash Kristi clearly comes out ahead with stronger jumping and elements). Tonya coming ahead in the short program would have automatically secured her being on the team even if Kristi won the long and Tonya were 3rd. At the 1990 Nationals both skated cleanly in the short with the same jumps again and Kristi still with no artistry as of yet (and lower artistic marks than elements marks), this time won the short 8 judges to 1, LOL!

Then in the long Kristi getting all 5.9s for technical merit with her little jumps and lack of speed and power, and skating before Tonya was crazy. Even if you argue it was close, in any other situation Tonya who had been on the scene for years, and was far better in figures and far more competitive internationally (since World judges would never take Kristi serious with her weak figures, tiny jumps, and little girl look at the time) would have gotten the nod. She didnt since Kristi was already USFSA princess and the USFSA was always anti Tonya. Of course at worlds Kristi skated a clean short with a triple lutz combo where all the other girls including Ito did triple toe combos and was still distant 5th in that phase behind even Lebedeva which just proves my point. Tonya would have been far more competitive and since Trenary bombed in the end probably would have ended up the best U.S hope. Sending Kristi was a total waste.
 
Kristi definitely had momentum leading into the 1989 US Nationals.

That she was competing in two events, was a world junior champion in ladies' singles and pairs, and had won a medal at Skate America 1988, made her a media magnet.

Back in the day, I thought Tonya presented a more senior vision on the ice. Her jumps, spins and ice coverage were definitely better.

Yamaguchi, as Jill Trenary once put it, was a littler, younger cutsie.
 
essence_of_soy said:
I found watching the movie quite sad. Her Skate America long program from 1991 is still one of my favourites.

Tonya faced so many internal and external road blocks in her life and her career.

Such a wasted talent.
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ITA! People can say what they want about Tonya but I cant imagine Kristi, Nancy, Michelle, Sasha, Ashley, whoever you name in her situation would have done any better. Parents like that, finances like that, boyfriend like that (who she needed to be with to survive as her mother wouldnt let her stay with her rent free anymore), and USFSA against her like that. She did as well or better as anyone else would have in that situation.

essence_of_soy said:
Kristi definitely had momentum leading into the 1989 US Nationals.

That she was competing in two events, was a world junior champion in ladies' singles and pairs, and had won a medal at Skate America 1988, made her a media magnet.

Back in the day, I thought Tonya presented a more senior vision on the ice. Her jumps, spins and ice coverage were definitely better.

Yamaguchi, as Jill Trenary once put it, was a littler, younger cutsie.
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Yeah and they did fluffies on both Yamaguchi and Trenary, and none on Harding. Harding would have had to do her triple axel to make the team that year.
 
I always wondered if the ruling allowing three skaters to go to a world championship had come into play earlier, if a skater had medalled the year prior, but that skater didn't have to form part of the squad, how Harding would have done in Paris.

My guess is she would have come fourth in figures, second in the short and free, and second overall.
 
It's really weird how Tonya was at her most artistic in like 1986-1989. :lol: But I think that goes hand in hand with her cutting corners as more distractions presented themselves over the years. The amount of potential Tonya had was truly endless.
 
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Sasha is DIVINE said:
It's really weird how Tonya was at her most artistic in like 1986-1989. :lol: But I think that goes hand in hand with her cutting corners as more distractions presented themselves. The amount of potential Tonya had was truly endless.
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It also baffles me that the USFSA did not recognise that in Tonya, they had someone who could compete with the likes of Ito. Even when she was interviewed in the kiss and cry at US Nationals in 1989, Jill Trenary knew how tough Midori was in freestyle.
 
essence_of_soy said:
It also baffles me that the USFSA did not recognise that in Tonya, they had someone who could compete with the likes of Ito. Even when she was interviewed in the kiss and cry at US Nationals in 1989, Jill Trenary knew how tough Midori was in freestyle.
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Wait, I’m confused. In 89 and 90 Jill and midori swapped places 1:2. In 91 and 92 it was Kristi who took gold when Midori faultered. But Tonya was the one who could compete with Ito? Are we sure about that?
 
Another thing that REALLY bugged me about I, Tonya was that in their alternate reality Midori Ito didn't exist. I mean COME ON NOW! How can you tell any kind of story about the triple axel without at least mentioning Midori, even if just in passing?? She was THE pioneer when it came to that jump. It was so beyond silly and disrespectful. Of all the ALTERNATE FACTS in the film, this one might have bothered me the most. Maybe because Midori is always so sweet and unassuming and was able to make a name for herself without the off-ice drama and theatrics. You know, kind of the anti-Tonya. :lol: She deserved a friggin acknowledgement! Grrr. {gets off soapbox before causing myself to stroke out}
 
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PDilemma said:
Whatever motivated it, it worked to push the persecuted Tonya theme. I suggested that there was way more to the presentation mark than costumes (which wasn't even in the criteria--other than, as you said if they violated rules) and that watching video of Tonya's competitors for contrast would begin to make her deficiencies in that area more obvious.
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But costumes are part of the package, and as such, could have an influence on PCS, even if the judges are unaware of it. There is a reason why skaters will spent several thousand dollars on a costume.

I remember TV commentators saying that Mira Leung bought a costume off the rack and she did look a bit shabby in comparison to others.
 
Sasha is DIVINE said:
Dick Button always spoke of Tonya with respect and admiration and he was certainly not one to bite his tongue when it came to skaters he was not fond of (poor Angela Nikodinov will probably never forget being referred to as a refrigerator break, bless her poor heart).
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I remember Ucle Dick saying specifically on air that Tonya achieved suspension in the air when doing a death drop that is rare to see, and one got the impression the he really appreciated what Tonya was able to do at a nuances level. Of course, the death drop was something really only men did until Tonya's time, and it seemed to me that Uncle Dick was saying Tonya did a good death drop for ANYONE, not just, as they used to say, "good for a woman".
 
Yazmeen said:
But it's still not an easier version than the basic spiral. I don't mind if someone doesn't like it. But cut the BS that it's easier because you don't like the fact that Nancy has Olympic medals and Tonya threw her best shots away.
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When I was a skater around the time of Nancy's heyday, a lot of us were trying her spiral variation, and personally I remember finding it easier to keep balance when holding my knee than doing a 'regular' spiral (which required more leaning forward to counter-balance).
 
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Sasha is DIVINE said:
Another thing that REALLY bugged me about I, Tonya was that in their alternate reality Midori Ito didn't exist. I mean COME ON NOW! How can you tell any kind of story about the triple axel without at least mentioning Midori, even if just in passing?? She was THE pioneer when it came to that jump. It was so beyond silly and disrespectful. Of all the ALTERNATE FACTS in the film, this might have bothered me the most. Maybe because Midori is always so sweet and unassuming and was able to make a name for herself without the off-ice drama and theatrics. You know, kind of the anti-Tonya. :lol: She deserved a friggin acknowledgement! Grrr. {gets off soapbox before causing myself to stroke out}
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Oddly, an actress credited for playing Midori is listed on I, Tonya’s IMDB page. I either blinked and missed her or it hit the cutting room floor.
 
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