How Do You Actually Recognize Jumps?

Aussie Willy said:
I have seen a skater do a jump that could have been called as a lutz, flip or loop.
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Weird. I am guessing their left foot was on a flat and they picked with their right foot, but they actually picked using the whole right outside edge and transferred weight?

Aussie Willy said:
I have also called a flip jump that looked like a loop as a loop because the skater took off from the edge rather than the toe pick (I still clearly remember seeing it in my mind and it was in the PPC as a flip so it really stood out). Skater ended up losing the event on it. We didn't have video replay so the call stood. But the feedback to the coach was to fix up the skater's technique.
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Similar to the above, but the skater was on a clear left inside edge and picked on the whole right outside edge and transferred weight.

Picking with a whole right outside edge could reasonably be consider a Mohawk entrance to a Loop if the weight is transferred onto the outside edge. Although I have heard an argument that it could still be considered a Flip or Lutz if they never actually travel backward on the right outside edge . . . The jump I am specifically thinking of I lovingly called a "Floop".
 
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I usually only have problems distinguishing between the flip and toe, but a lot of skaters help me out by that right foot stroke forward before turning and picking for the flip while the toe is usually just a turn.
There's got to be some old ISU tapes demonstrate all the jumps.
 
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I usually have trouble distinguishing between the flip and the toe loop. I realize that the flip has an opposite entry, but it's hard to tell directions watching via video, and the camera angles aren't helpful either. All of the other entries are easier to distinguish watching blades and body movements. But you have to watch closely.

It will take time for casual viewers to even understand that there are differences, much less to distinguish between them. Even longtime fans and skaters themselves have a hard time. Peggy Fleming once admitted to having trouble on a couple of occasions re deciphering what jump had just been executed.

It's also hard sometimes to determine between quads or triples because the split second rotations go by too quickly. Again, it's necessary to watch closely. Slow motion makes it easier to decipher the revolutions. If it's hard for fans and former skaters, imagine the difficulty for judges. :duh:
 
aftershocks said:
I usually have trouble distinguishing between the flip and the toe loop. I realize that the flip has an opposite entry, but it's hard to tell directions watching via video, and the camera angles aren't helpful either. All of the other entries are easier to distinguish watching blades and body movements. But you have to watch closely.
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Yes, the placement of flip and toe loop on the ice is often similar, and they both have the rhythm of a toe jump, so if I'm not really paying attention I might not make a mental note of the takeoff and just have a vague awareness that it was either a flip or a toe loop.

If I am paying attention, they don't look very similar to me. The toe loop rotates toward the picking leg and the flip rotates away from the picking leg.

Peggy Fleming once admitted to having trouble on a couple of occasions re deciphering what jump had just been executed.
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Yeah, if the skater's technique is wonky (especially between flip and lutz) or if the viewing angle is just at the least advantageous angle, even experts can be unsure of what they just saw. Or, of course, if they weren't paying close attention.

It's also hard sometimes to determine between quads or triples because the split second rotations go by too quickly. Again, it's necessary to watch closely. Slow motion makes it easier to decipher the revolutions.
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Yes.

If it's hard for fans and former skaters, imagine the difficulty for judges. :duh:
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Judges generally have more knowledge than fans. Many of them were skaters themselves. And most spend a lot of time watching live skating at all different levels, so they're used to identifying jumps with far from textbook technique.

Also at the elite competitions they do have access to video replay.

And they get assistance from the tech panel calling the names of the jumps, with the abbreviations showing up on the judges' screens.

However, judges are responsible for knowing exactly what they saw and scoring accordingly. In that sense, their jump ID job is more difficult than for fans, who aren't responsible to anyone, although other fans certainly appreciate accurate play-by-play reports.
 
I remember watching Moris Kvitelashvili @ Helsinki Worlds and being confused because his take-off to 4S and 4T looked very similar to me. Basically I thought he did 3 quad sals in his FS but in fact he did 2 toes and only 1 sal. Usually I have no trouble telling sals and toes apart but Moris and maybe a couple of other skaters I've seen manage to befuddle me with their quads. See for yourself: https://youtu.be/8Os6MuVwxqI?t=1m13s (the third quad comes after the spin & step sequence)

ETA: Better to clarify that I'm not implying there's anything wrong with his technique, it's just that his body language and rhythm when he's going for 4T looks kinda "salchow-like" to me. I do see the difference in his toe vs. sal take-off when I specifically pay attention & focus on what his blades are doing.
 
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gkelly said:
And they get assistance from the tech panel calling the names of the jumps, with the abbreviations showing up on the judges' screens.
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They get more than assistance. The actual jump performed comes up on their screen and they cannot alter it. They also cannot argue whether something was a double, triple or quad. The tech panel decides that. If the technical panel says a jump is downgraded from a triple to a double, that is the final word.
 
AxelAnnie said:
I have to really pay attention. Axel is easy. Loop and Sal are easy....
Lutz is hard for me because that edge change can come so late. Often there is footwork into the flip...so that helps.

The better I get, the more I can discern....it kind of slows down as my eye gets better. It is hard business IMO
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I instantly thought of '95 Europeans where Surya Bonaly was performing her "Gypsy" program! She came around the ice halfway thru the program and was doing some footwork, speeding up and it was like "is she going to do a LUTZ?" ....and she did! No one at the time was doing that on the ladies side anyway; usually just a Flip! I do remember Kwan really dumbing it down to a simpler triple Toe at times! :rolleyes: :COP: :respec:
 
Here is a great slo mo vid of all the single jumps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqGcZ6WBZnY

1. Salchow - edge jump; takes off from a back inside edge; note the scooping motion of the free leg; it acts as assist.
2. Toe loop - toe pick jump; takes off from a back outside edge.
3. Loop - edge jump; takes of from a back outside edge; no assist of any kind[ note she is simply gliding on the back outside edge and propels up.
4. Flip - toe pick jump; takes off from a back inside edge.
5. Lutz - toe pick jump; takes off from a back outside edge (although here, I think she flutzes slightly, which means at the last minute she switches to the inside edge)
6. Axel - edge jump; takes off from a forward outside edge; the only jump that does so.
 
aftershocks said:
I usually have trouble distinguishing between the flip and the toe loop. I realize that the flip has an opposite entry, but it's hard to tell directions watching via video, and the camera angles aren't helpful either. All of the other entries are easier to distinguish watching blades and body movements. But you have to watch closely.
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Yep, this can be tricky. I think to myself, 'did they rotate toward the picking foot?' (in which case it's a toe loop) or 'did they rotate away from the picking foot?' (in which case it's a flip).
 
LilJen said:
Yep, this can be tricky. I think to myself, 'did they rotate toward the picking foot?' (in which case it's a toe loop) or 'did they rotate away from the picking foot?' (in which case it's a flip).
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Right, thanks. It all happens so fast and it's a lot to look for. Strangely, I tend to recognize toe loop but not the flip. :duh: :lol: The loop, salchow, lutz, and axel are easy ... to recognize that is. ;)
 
The steps leading into them and the take-off edges. Of course, this makes it difficulty when there are no transitions into jumps coupled with horrid technique (e.g., Shoma) and some with iffy technique (Javier's Salchow/toe loop, and that Lutz or whatever it's supposed to be).
 
MAXSwagg said:
. . . and some with iffy technique (Javier's Salchow/toe loop, and that Lutz or whatever it's supposed to be).
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The difference between Javi's Salchow and Toe Loop is easy enough to identify if you watch his left knee to see whether or not weight transfers onto the left leg.

Javi's Lutz is a pretty flat when looking at the blade alone but the arc when he travels on the ice immediately prior to the jump is sufficient to confirm he is on an outside edge. He is not going to get an ! or anything.
 
bardtoob said:
The difference between Javi's Salchow and Toe Loop is easy enough to identify if you watch his left knee to see whether or not weight transfers onto the left leg.

Javi's Lutz is a pretty flat when looking at the blade alone but the arc when he travels on the ice immediately prior to the jump is sufficient to confirm he is on an outside edge. He is not going to get an ! or anything.
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Regarding his Lutz, most of the time I don't see how you can differentiate the edge, as he lifts the first three-quarters of his blade completely off the ice before he jumps, so he's not really taking off from any edge.
 
MAXSwagg said:
Regarding his Lutz, most of the time I don't see how you can differentiate the edge, as he lifts the first three-quarters of his blade completely off the ice before he jumps, so he's not really taking off from any edge.
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You do not need to have your whole blade on the ice to be on the outside edge of part of the blade.

Here is an example where you can clearly see that his path of travel is shaped like: )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ12Co3AxtY&feature=youtu.be&t=193

immediately prior to take off but his blade looks like it is on the flat (both edges on the ice at the same time) of part of the blade. The ) shape is only possible on an outside edge, proving he is not on the flat.

(I could have cut the video example closer to his take off, but I left some extra time so that dastardly banner that covers his feet can be clicked off by the viewer.)
 
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Layman, no-technik description:

toe pick assist:

1. toe -> take off with toe pick when legs are crossed;

2. flip -> take off with toe pick when legs are not crossed, edge of the non-picking leg and body lean inward towards the picking foot, usually set up while skating forwards;

3. lutz -> take off with toe pick when legs are not crossed, edge of the non-picking leg and body lean outward away from the picking foot, usually set up while skating backwards;

without toe pick assit:

4. axel -> takes off forward with a "soccer kick";

5. sal -> takes off with a "scrap" action;

6. loop -> sets up and takes off with legs crossed.
 
floskate said:
Occasionally a skaters take off would fool me. For example Eldredge and Lipinski's toe loops from a toe Walley take off - with the timing they used - looked like salchows. I knew they were toeloops because of what they had already attempted but my brain always said 'toeloops'.
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Yes! Eldredge's toe-loops often looked like salchows to me. It was the really late change of foot with instant pick-in that made them feel like salchows.

meggonzo said:
I'm trying to picture how you can be trying to do a flip and it ends up a loop? :confused: So the skater set down their picking foot and took off with that foot?
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Frankly, most of the Japanese skaters have questionable pick in technique on the flip. I can't think of any names but I remember thinking one of the women does a Mohawk into what traditionally would be a loop entrance - RBO edge with left leg crossed over in that sitting/coiled spring position, strong check with release that looks like its definitely going to be a loop but just as the release of the check happens she pulls the right leg back and hooks the take off from the toe pick so it looks like an attempt at a flip.

(also from experience - if I don't pick back far enough on my lowly single flip I have a tendency pick in role back onto the edge and "loop" the take off).
 
antmanb said:
Yes! Eldredge's toe-loops often looked like Salchows to me. It was the really late change of foot with instant pick-in that made them feel like Salchows.
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It was one hideous attempt; probably only completed once! The others had him crashing to the ice; including '98 Nationals qualifying for the Olympics! I was personally "all-in" with Michael Weiss and his quad Lutz attempt! He got the rotation, but barely 2-footed the jump; I was moved by the performance! I've always been a sap for classical musical in figure skating and any of the "killer B's" is great by me; "Beethoven, Bach, B....!" IMO, another fix because emotion carries the day at times, but Weiss didn't have a chance! Eldridge could have spattered his brains all over the ice and in back of the ambulance be proclaimed "the winner!" Nat'ls are shady all over the world, but the USA takes it to new heights with drama and intrigue going on when it comes to forming a World Team! :rolleyes: :scream: :wall: :COP:
 
SmallFairy said:
I'm sure Todd is a nice guy, but all his long programs were to Gettysburg, right? ;)
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Todd's music choices were lame; typically something theatrical for LP with a show tune for the SP! It was like Gettysburg, Gone With The Wind, etc.; something big and grand to fill the auditorium! I was never a fan of his, but he did have an exhibition performance I liked very much; Il Mare Calmo Della Sera sung by Andre Bocelli! :40beers: :plush: :respec:
 
Lay off with the OTT critiques of Todd Eldredge please. He's an exceedingly kind and wonderful human being, and an accomplished champion who worked hard and developed into a more well-rounded skater after going through a lot of ups-and-downs which toughened him. I always felt that Paul Wylie should have won U.S. Nationals in 1990 and/or 1991. But Todd was a technically proficient up-and-comer who was given the nod. Yes, there was a bit of favoritism involved. Todd himself almost seemed embarrassed to win over Paul. And when Rudy Galindo won at 1996 U.S. Nats over front-runner Todd in a thrilling competitive effort, Todd was seen backstage smiling and clapping in admiration for Rudy's amazing performances. Todd used the experience of Rudy defeating him at Nationals for inspiration, which spurred Todd on to win the 1996 World championship.

Todd always possessed an easygoing temperament, and he's a true gentleman. I met him in person and I know firsthand. One of my favorite figure skating memories is when Todd won Worlds in 1996 and after the awards ceremony, he skated over to the stands and lovingly placed his gold medal around his mother's neck. That lovely gesture spoke volumes about Todd's character, and about what goes into all the hard work and sacrifices it takes from a skater and their loved ones to make it to the top.

Todd was a great athlete and an amazing jumper with a catlike ability to land his jumps even when he was off in the air. He devoted himself to trying to master the quad later in his career, and he would have had he been younger and had more time. Todd is a credit to the sport of figure skating in the United States and internationally. Todd was one of the best in a remarkable era of U.S. men skaters, including Paul Wylie, Christopher Bowman, Rudy Galindo, Scott Davis, Mark Mitchell, Michael Weiss, Dan Hollander, et al.
 
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meggonzo said:
A toe walley is off the inside edge and toe loop off the outside edge. I think ...
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OK, thanks. I thought (guessed) that it had to do with the three-turn into the outside edge for a toe loop, and the toe-walley always seems to come with a different entrance but considering what a walley is your explanation makes total sense.

On top of that, I miss walley jumps. So cool in their playful bouyant arc. The greats in the past eras would do them in both directions. Kudos to jumping both directions. Especially walleys!
 
bardtoob said:
You do not need to have your whole blade on the ice to be on the outside edge of part of the blade.

Here is an example where you can clearly see that his path of travel is shaped like: )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ12Co3AxtY&feature=youtu.be&t=193

immediately prior to take off but his blade looks like it is on the flat (both edges on the ice at the same time) of part of the blade. The ) shape is only possible on an outside edge, proving he is not on the flat.

(I could have cut the video example closer to his take off, but I left some extra time so that dastardly banner that covers his feet can be clicked off by the viewer.)
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It's dodgy technique. It's straight-up weird and frankly shouldn't get +3. Definitely not "pure" which makes it difficult to identify if you are just getting into the sport or don't follow much, etc., such as the poster. You can't even see what I'm talking about from the vantage point of that video you provided. I'll get some gifs to show this problem. There are many and it's well-documented.
 
MAXSwagg said:
It's dodgy technique. It's straight-up weird and frankly shouldn't get +3. Definitely not "pure" which makes it difficult to identify if you are just getting into the sport or don't follow much, etc., such as the poster. You can't even see what I'm talking about from the vantage point of that video you provided. I'll get some gifs to show this problem. There are many and it's well-documented.
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Oh, I definitely know the edge is not deep.

Many skaters would flutz if they went that flat, but I have heard some say he can get away with it because of the narrowness of his hips; I have heard women tend to flutz more than men because of the mechanics of having wider hips.
 
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