Gymnastic news #22 - Tokyo or bust

[Choupette]

Miss Val didn’t deny Beckerman’s story though.

No she didn't. And if this is the sort of behavior she exhibits, it should come as no surprise that she would be among the last criticized. When you say "my coach physically hit me", you know that a clear line is crossed and that it will be interpreted as such. When it comes to lineups, bogus team meetings and scholarships, it must make it that much harder to come forward. And coming forward is a very difficult thing to do in the first place.

 

[canbelto]

I used to think gymnastics coaches were Eastern bloc hardasses who didn't know the boundaries between "tough coach" and "abuse." The stories however are much more bizarre and go beyond "you can't eat fries." Like the obsession with no water intake, Kim Zmeskal cutting a black girl's braids, and of course Larry Nassar. Also i know injuries are part of sports but some of the untreated injuries are just beyond what I could have imagined. It's just bizarre and speaks to a toxic culture that can't be explained by "oh they're from the Eastern bloc and are really strict."

 

[mjb52]

That's an interesting point, I wonder whether it links in to hazing culture, which is more of an American phenomenon I think.

 

[floskate]

The Athlete A upcoming panel on positive coaching featuring VKF has been postponed.
https://twitter.com/JenniferSey/status/1297332546527612928?s=19

 

[Erin]

I may be in the minority here, but I’ve been becoming less of a fan of GymCastic in the past year. Too many reasons to post right now, but I’m that Jessica apparently still thinks it’s fine to squeal like she does into her microphone. But maybe I’m the only one who thinks that it makes horrible audio.

I don’t know if you are in the minority or not, but you are definitely not alone. I was disappointed in how Jessica addressed the Maria Caire incident and I know at least one person who sent negative feedback about it (and I doubt they were the only one), which was completely ignored. And I agree with you about the shrieking, which made the episode on Sydney team final almost unlistenable. Most of the Behind the Scenes episodes are a waste of time. I did a year-long subscription a while ago but I don’t plan to give them any money going forward if this is what we are going to get.

 

[Jimena]

Pardon my ignorance, but what was the Maria Caire incident?

 

[danafan]

Pardon my ignorance, but what was the Maria Caire incident?

Did this student deserve admission to UCLA's renowned gymnastics team?

College admissions scandal renews scrutiny of recruited athletes to elite colleges.

www.latimes.com

 

[Coco]

Miss Val has made some really unusual scholarship / walk on choices involving people who've been out of the sport for years. Some pan out and some don't.

She was also very open about helping to game the system to get her predecessor's son into UCLA (Cory Tomlinson).

I completely believe everything Alyssa said and find it very troubling. At the same time, she left out the fact that she was about 20 lbs over a safe weight to tumble. It is safer to do beam overweight than floor and she was too overweight to do floor and it did contribute to her injury.


Generally, people whose public image is so over the top "I am so unique and better" generally have mucho skeletons. Yet she has also done a ton of good, undeniably, for her athletes and for the sport.

 

[Choupette]

At the same time, she left out the fact that she was about 20 lbs over a safe weight to tumble. It is safer to do beam overweight than floor and she was too overweight to do floor and it did contribute to her injury.

She did mention her weight...? I am confused about what you imply because I am lost regarding the timeline.

 

[her grace]

This is the 2003 report in the Daily Bruin, "Gymnastics: Beckerman questions dismissal" which is consistent with what Beckerman is saying now.

Quote from Beckerman:

“I never had a chance, and now she questions my attitude?” Beckerman said. “To me, that just reflects her lack of integrity.”

Quotes from Kondos Field:

“Alyssa had certain responsibilities to the program, and she didn’t fulfill them,” Kondos Field said. “It was never just one thing with her. I would never release someone from the program just based on gymnastics.” and

“There had been a lot of discussion about Alyssa over the last few years, and I’ve made it really clear that she needed to make some changes in her life,” Kondos Field said. “Her teammates supported my decision. I made my reasons very clear, and they understand.”

Here's another thoughtful interview from Beckerman in 2018, where she talks a bit about MLT and the systemic problems in gymnastics: Inside Perspective: Alyssa Beckerman | In Search of Solutions for the Next Era of USA Gymnastics. I think Beckerman is one of the good ones, and I believe her. I suspect that more will be corroborated with time. On Twitter, MLT teammates Brittany Smith and Dominique Moceanu are vouching for Beckerman and some fans are saying they saw questionable treatment of Beckerman by Kondos Field at a Michigan meet.

 

[Bellanca]

Miss Val seemed to relish pitting the gymnasts against one another with a gang-like mentality. Frankly, there is too much of that in almost every gym. V's team(s) had the misfortune of observing that she was clearly an emotionally immature adult that got a kick out of creating a toxic environment that was completely unnecessary.

I realize this is one of the lesser evils, but I can't get over VKF ridiculing Alyssa for using the word animosity and calling it an SAT word.

Yeah. The SAT comment is so ridiculous that one can only . ETA: not to mention that it was absurd nitpicking and beyond anal-retentive.

ETA (part two): a coach just needs to coach, period. Gymnasts already have parents or a parental figure, friends, teammates, etc. A coach's role is not to be all of the above, and it certainly should never be that of a brutal-like, tyrannical instructor. Coaching should never cross that line. If these coaches cannot follow simple guidelines and rules like this, then get the ---- out. You are unsuitable for the job.

 

[canbelto]

Ok not defending Miss Val but a lot of the scummy recruiting tactics used by coaches at highly touted collegiate programs are an open secret. UCLA is such a competitive team that I'm honestly not surprised the coach believes in a Hunger Games like atmosphere to get on the team.

I'm sure people could tell stories about Coach K or John Calipari. The way student athletes are treated by the NCAA system is another kettle of fish and hugely problematic.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Ok not defending Miss Val but a lot of the scummy recruiting tactics used by coaches at highly touted collegiate programs are an open secret. UCLA is such a competitive team that I'm honestly not surprised the coach believes in a Hunger Games like atmosphere to get on the team.

I'm sure people could tell stories about Coach K or John Calipari. The way student athletes are treated by the NCAA system is another kettle of fish and hugely problematic.

Non-renewed scholarships for high profile recruits (or any scholarship recruits) absent major integrity violations are INCREDIBLY uncommon in sports like basketball and football.

A basketball or football coach who became known for suddenly cutting scholarships of recruited athletes would find himself hard pressed to recruit any athletes.

 

[canbelto]

Non-renewed scholarships for high profile recruits (or any scholarship recruits) absent major integrity violations are INCREDIBLY uncommon in sports like basketball and football.

They are but in basketball many of the "best" players leave anyway through the one and done routine. As I said, sounds like Miss Val likes to recruit famous elite gymnasts and is not transparent with them about their role on the team. The non renewed scholarship was the only part that didn't sound like another college coach who mixes snake oil salesmanship in with the recruiting.

 

[mjb52]

Hm, this has made me think about a relative who was pressured to go to a grad program in what I felt was an unscrupulous way. This was a purely academic situation, no sports involved. There are really a lot of issues with the power dynamic in higher education in general.

 

[ilovepaydays]

ETA (part two): a coach just needs to coach, period. Gymnasts already have parents or a parental figure, friends, teammates, etc.

Agreed. But aren’t there a lot of people in our culture who celebrate otherwise? One example: I don’t remember which “All Around” episode it was, but Morgan Hurd said that Slava Glazounov was “more like a dad than a coach.” And it was presented as a positive thing. I don’t think that’s a healthy view of a coach - even if he or she is doing the right things.

 

[Aceon6]

As I said, sounds like Miss Val likes to recruit famous elite gymnasts and is not transparent with them about their role on the team. The non renewed scholarship was the only part that didn't sound like another college coach who mixes snake oil salesmanship in with the recruiting.

As I understand it, top programs only give scholarships to 1) people who could be in the starting lineup, 2) people who can make it easier to recruit a highly sought after prospect, and 3) people who would lift the team’s GPA. #3 isn’t an issue for UCLA gym. VKF expected a two event starter whose reputation was worth a few tenths every time she competed. Neither VKF nor Alyssa could have predicted how Alyssa’s body would react to normal eating. I can see VKF thinking that Alyssa wasn’t what she thought she recruited and Alyssa thinking she wasn’t being supported.

Again, using what I know from my dance training, VKF’s use of the seniors to “punish” Alyssa would have been an expected tactic. Use of the dance captain to make a person feel that they should just quit is so common that anyone who has danced competitively would recognize it. Is it wrong? Obviously. But it’s common.

 

[Erin]

As I understand it, top programs only give scholarships to 1) people who could be in the starting lineup, 2) people who can make it easier to recruit a highly sought after prospect, and 3) people who would lift the team’s GPA. #3 isn’t an issue for UCLA gym. VKF expected a two event starter whose reputation was worth a few tenths every time she competed. Neither VKF nor Alyssa could have predicted how Alyssa’s body would react to normal eating. I can see VKF thinking that Alyssa wasn’t what she thought she recruited and Alyssa thinking she wasn’t being supported.

There are plenty of gymnasts who are recruited for programs and then don’t end up making lineups and don’t lose their scholarships. Sometimes they are allowed to medically retire (in which case they no longer count towards the team’s number of scholarships), but other times they do keep counting the whole time. That also wasn’t even the case with Alyssa - she was making lineups. She didn’t compete much in 2001, I assume due to the wrist surgery she mentions, but was a regular contributor on two events in 2002 and in 2003 until the knee injury. I can think of people who have kept scholarships with far less significant contributions, including on UCLA.

 

[floskate]

There are plenty of gymnasts who are recruited for programs and then don’t end up making lineups and don’t lose their scholarships. Sometimes they are allowed to medically retire (in which case they no longer count towards the team’s number of scholarships), but other times they do keep counting the whole time. That also wasn’t even the case with Alyssa - she was making lineups. She didn’t compete much in 2001, I assume due to the wrist surgery she mentions, but was a regular contributor on two events in 2002 and in 2003 until the knee injury. I can think of people who have kept scholarships with far less significant contributions, including on UCLA.

Exactly. And why do it in September, leaving her completely stranded financially and emotionally and on 9/11 knowing full well how traumatised she had been by what happened on that date? Her use of agreeing to disagree etc...it was all planned out to have the maximum impact on Alyssa - exceptional cruelty whichever way you look at it. Even looking back to 2003, those VKF quotes are really loaded. All the passive aggressive subtext going on there.....very dirty and not at all professional.

The more I think about this, the more I get the feeling that MLT was in the background fully involved in VKF's approach to dealing with Alyssa the whole time once they had kissed and made up and were back to being bff's. When I read Beckerman's statement and then I go back to think about that Gymcastic interview with VKF & MLT......it really does make my stomach turn.

 

[Rob]

Regarding one and done basketball players, schools often honor the scholarship later if the NBA or pro career does not pan out. My friend was the head of the athletes admissions office at UMD and he said they would normally allow athletes to come back to finish a degree on scholarship- it helps the graduation rates since they count it eventually even if the athlete did not complete while playing. Gymnastics doesn’t have an issue with grad rates, but it would have been the right thing for UCLA to do. I believe she’d have kept a scholarship if she’d been retired from the team due to injury, which certainly seems to have been an option given Alyssa’s numerous injuries. Seems purely vindictive to me. She was outspoken, had more injuries than VKF realized, and gained too much weight, all treated as unforgivable at the time. Horrible.

And, the idea that MLT was originally chosen by USAG as athlete coordinator, OMG!

 

[Bellanca]

Agreed. But aren’t there a lot of people in our culture who celebrate otherwise? One example: I don’t remember which “All Around” episode it was, but Morgan Hurd said that Slava Glazounov was “more like a dad than a coach.” And it was presented as a positive thing. I don’t think that’s a healthy view of a coach - even if he or she is doing the right things.

Exactly.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

Just read that piece. Good lord. I feel like I’ve been duped. Just reading Beckerman’s account made me sick. This is not a healthy sport culture. Is there a healthy one?

Very doubtful - any more that there are completely healthy human cultures of any kind (music/art/theater/dance/business/education/religion/politics).

Humans are (in my opinion, increasingly) often not admirable creatures in interactions with each other at peer level or in hierarchical structures. YMMV.

 

[Bellanca]

I used to think gymnastics coaches were Eastern bloc hardasses who didn't know the boundaries between "tough coach" and "abuse." The stories however are much more bizarre and go beyond "you can't eat fries." Like the obsession with no water intake, Kim Zmeskal cutting a black girl's braids, and of course Larry Nassar. Also i know injuries are part of sports but some of the untreated injuries are just beyond what I could have imagined. It's just bizarre and speaks to a toxic culture that can't be explained by "oh they're from the Eastern bloc and are really strict."

Eastern bloc hardasses influenced coaching techniques across the sport, and especially after USAG appointed B&M to manage women's gymnastics. Nonetheless, I agree with your take on the stories being much more bizarre. I hear about or read things that make me believe some coaches simply get too caught up in their students' worlds both in the gym and particularly outside of the gym. I think they're prone to veer away (some significantly) from their roles as a coach. The coach/student relationship or line becomes blurred in a very dysfunctional way. I also think some of the female coaches try to be "one of the girls," e.g., like some parents who try to be their child's best friend when what they need to be is their parent.

Kim was chopping off braids; Miss Val was urging her students to gang up on a teammate. None of this is justified behavior or anything that one would ever see or experience with a rational, even-keeled, dependable coach or coaching staff.

Also, a nutritionist/dietitian sports recommended diet is one thing that athletes all across the sports world adhere to, or try to, anyway. However, ott, strict diets such as no fries ever, etc. that's certifiable stuff right there. A small fry now and again is not going to derail a gymnastics career. Take Michael Phelps, for example, swimming, a different sport, altogether, of course, but the guy eats like a horse. He has to because of the calories he burns up. My point being, any gymnast who has indulged in, say a scoop of ice cream, is probably going to burn that off pretty quickly.

I think there needs to be a considerable reset between a coach and their students. I prefer the John Nicks approach, where he drew clear lines of 'I am your coach, and I will give you 100% of my time and attention on the ice, mutual respect, plus, a safe, secure, and comfortable training environment. However, I am not your parent, your buddy, we won't be hanging out together, etc., etc.' I think when that line is crossed, things get complicated and then emotions of how you can interact with each other can become convoluted and messy. A coach should never feel like they can go up to their student and lop off their hair, etc. That crossed a line - big time.

 

[canbelto]

Also, a nutritionist/dietitian sports recommended diet is one thing that athletes all across the sports world adhere to, or try to, anyway. However, ott, strict diets such as no fries ever, etc. that's certifiable stuff right there. A small fry now and again is not going to derail a gymnastics career. Take Michael Phelps, for example, swimming, a different sport, altogether, of course, but the guy eats like a horse. He has to because of the calories he burns up. My point being, any gymnast who has indulged in, say a scoop of ice cream, is probably going to burn that off pretty quickly.

I've been watching videos from inside the NBA bubble and the amount of food NBA guys eat is astonishing. Granted they're REALLY big guys but they definitely seem to eat whatever they want to eat, and there's no one telling them they can't eat.

I remember in Aly Raisman's book she was once seen eating pizza and she got chewed out by a member of USAG saying she could NEVER be seen eating pizza. Also have heard girls tell stories that other gymnasts tattled on them for eating cookies. That's just a bizarre culture -- these girls exercise a lot and a no-water no-food diet is pretty much a recipe for injury and disaster.

Also it seems as if some of the worst coaches can't be explained away by "Eastern bloc hardass." Like Don Peters who pre-dated Bela and Marta, and younger coaches like Maggie Haney.

 

[Bellanca]

I've been watching videos from inside the NBA bubble and the amount of food NBA guys eat is astonishing. Granted they're REALLY big guys but they definitely seem to eat whatever they want to eat, and there's no one telling them they can't eat.

I remember in Aly Raisman's book she was once seen eating pizza and she got chewed out by a member of USAG saying she could NEVER be seen eating pizza. Also have heard girls tell stories that other gymnasts tattled on them for eating cookies. That's just a bizarre culture -- these girls exercise a lot and a no-water no-food diet is pretty much a recipe for injury and disaster.

Also it seems as if some of the worst coaches can't be explained away by "Eastern bloc hardass." Like Don Peters who pre-dated Bela and Marta, and younger coaches like Maggie Haney.

I agree. Kim could undoubtedly be labeled an "Eastern bloc hardass" convert (why am I suddenly thinking that may catch on ) because B&M heavily influenced her aside from gymnastics. Kim was their pet and very close to them. Almost an unbreakable, unshakable bond.

 

[VGThuy]

Random Gymnastics thoughts due to boredom:

I was thinking about something...in the past six Olympics since the break-up of the Soviet Union, there's only been 3 Russian Olympic champions across the 36 events (six events x six Olympics) = Svetlana Khorkina, uneven bars (1996, 2000); Elena Zamolodchikova, vault and floor (2000); and Aliya Mustafina, uneven bars (2012, 2016). If we count all former Soviet republics, we can add Lilia Podkopayeva, All-Around and Floor (1996).

I don't know why, but I just think that's something interesting to think about.

I also realized how much of a Romanian Olympics Athens was outside of the All-Around competition. They won team and 3/4 event finals (not to mention a bronze and a silver) with four out of six individual members of that Romanian team taking home medals (and two winning gold).

Sydney was almost the opposite where they won team and swept the all-around podium but won zero EFs (but Raducan and Amanar managed to win medals (silver in VT and bronze on FX, respectively).

They almost swept 1996 AA as well but for Lilia Pod stopping that from happening and from "Gina Gogean, Olympic AA Champion". All three did get medals before the IOC forced the FIG to come up with tie-breaking procedures.

Thinking about that made me realize Sydney had the potential to be a Russian-dominated one since four out of six gymnasts came away with individual medals but because of the Team and AA, it's not. At least it's better than 2008 where Russia won NO medals.

The next time one team would have that many individual medalists would be in 2016, which was obviously an American-dominated Olympics thanks to Biles, but four out of five members came away with individual medals and had Douglas performed her bars set the way she did in team final, she could have came away with an individual medal too - making it all five members.

I haven't looked pre-1996, but has a country had five or more individual medalists at an Olympics? This may have happened during Soviet times.

In terms of balance,

1996 was probably the most balanced of all the Olympics from the post-Soviet period, with one country winning the team and beam, another winning the all-around and floor (and not being from a team that medaled in the team event), one winning bars, and another winning vault. There were also three medalists who didn't come from a team that won a medal in the team event but two of those medals were one by Lilia Pod.

2008 was also balanced, China winning team and bars, USA winning All-around and beam, North Korean winning vault, and Romania winning floor.

2012 had four different countries winning Event Finals, with Gabby Douglas winning AA in a close battle for gold against Komova with Mustafina edging out Raisman for bronze in a literal tie. Like 1996, this one also had three individual medalists from a non-medal winning team, but all three were from China (at least they were three different gymnasts unlike 1996 where two of the medals were won by Lilia Pod). I guess 2004 did the best with that with three gymnasts different non-medal-winning countries won one individual medal each. Not to be out-done, 2016 had four different medalists from four different countries that did not medal in the team event.

In the post-Soviet era, only Ukraine (1996 AA and FX), France (2004 UB), North Korea (2008 VT), China (2012 BB), and the Netherlands (2016 BB) were countries that won an Olympic gold medal without winning a team medal. All four apparatuses represented...not bad.

There was no point to this post. Just random things I found.

 

[Erin]

I haven't looked pre-1996, but has a country had five or more individual medalists at an Olympics? This may have happened during Soviet times.

It did, but not very often. I had to go back to 1960 to find an occurrence of it:

Gymnastics at the 1960 Summer Olympics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Latynina, Muratova, Astakhova, Lyukhina, and Nikolaeva all came away with individual medals. In other years pre-1996, even three or four medallists from one team was rare. I think it's a combination of politics, pushing 1-2 stars in the AA per team, and the lack of specialists.

 

[Rob]

1992- 4 different countries winning Gold in EF except with the VT tie Rom got 2 (Lysenko Unified Team; Li China; Milosovic Rom; and Onodi Hungary/Milosovec Rom tied.

I think you have to go back to 1960 to find 5 Soviet women winning individual medals. 4 in 1980, but not a fully contested games.

 

[canbelto]

Viktoria Komova had potential to really rack up golds in 2012. She could have won AA, bars and beam.

 

[sonsofanarchy]

Viktoria Komova had potential to really rack up golds in 2012. She could have won AA, bars and beam.

In theory yes, AA and bars was certainly possible. Beam? I guess possible, but I have honestly never seen her do an almost totally non wobbly beam routine that could have beaten the 2 Chinese who went 1-2 for the gold.