Gracie Gold set to return

[skatesindreams]

Let's wait to see what Gracie does before making predictions or judgments.
I wish her whatever she wishes for herself.
.

 

[bardtoob]

Gracie is a PERSON with complex nuances ... that skates.

She is not a caricature or cardboard cut out, and we don't know what "herself" was or is. Maybe she makes some good decisions. Maybe she makes some bad decision. Maybe she is influenced by family, friends, people she hires to help her, including coaches, choreographers, etc. How this is all evaluated is up to her.

I know it does not matter if I am sympathetic, approve, or disapprove for some things and not others. In the end, she is still a PERSON.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Did anyone say she is NOT a person?

 

[Vagabond]

In Gracie's case I feel that being so very pretty has worked against her.

(((((Gracie)))))

 

[kwanfan1818]

Not every skater who chooses music they say they feel can translate that onto the ice. Or even when they can, can do it in competition without looking miserable, terrified, or like they'd rather be cleaning toilets.

 

[bardtoob]

Did anyone say she is NOT a person?

People have said she is a cardboard cutout, one of Frank Carrol and Lori Nichol's Pretty Pretty Ice Princesses, etc.

They have not said SHE IS A PERSON.

 

[Rock2]

(never mind)

 

[Simone411]

It's not uncommon for skaters to come back, and that's their prerogative. So, the best of luck to Gracie if this is truly what she wants. Go for it, and go for it all the way. Times flies by ever so fast, and she should compete while she still feels like it before that old thing called age progresses any further.

I'm turning 60 in a couple of months, and I can't believe I've made it. I feel like I'm still 50 but you can't make Mother Nature see that. So Gracie, go for it while you're still able to skate, honey!

 

[Eeyora1]

I applaud Gracie for coming back. What she is doing is extremely courageous and brave. As someone who suffers from both anxiety and depression. She is truly inspirational. Just admitting she was in treatment is not only courageous for herself but helps many others such as myself.

I was at 2016 Worlds in Boston and saw her from a distance with Frank was right before the long program. I didn’t know what was going through her head but I could recognize her symptoms.


That being said I posted on another board that I find it incredible that 5 out of the top 7 ladies at 2016 Worlds didn’t make it to the Olympics. Neither did the top 3 at 2016 US Nationals. Sometimes I feel this sport is moving way to fast.

I don't think it was a blanket statement. Karen and Mirai were huge cry babies at the Olympics. One didn't have hot water and the other didn't have her mom. To me, that is embarrassing. You never heard Michelle Kwan or Sasha Cohen complaining about water temperature, or dissing other competitors to explain their performance at the Olympics. And they were both younger than 2018 Mirai in both their Olympic appearances. It was so lame. Gracie had personal issues she had to overcome, but she isn't a whiner. Bradie reminds m of Rachel Flatt. Best we have by default. I will be happy to see Gracie back.

Not that I’m going to drag Sasha into it but remember “drill team” comment at 2003 Worlds?, the stalker at 2003 Nationals, the shingles, the spider bites.. However I do agree by the time Torino came along she handled the defeat graciously.

 

[aftershocks]

Why not? Are there rules in place that dictate why skaters are allowed to return to competiton? I have no idea why Gracie is returning to competition and as far as I know, neither does anyone else posting in this thread.

To suggest that Gracie’s “return should have nothing to do ...” (that is what you actually posted, so yes, you did say that) is a bit much. Gracie may return for any reason she likes and she is also not required to share that reason with anyone.

Ah well, it's not my job to judge why Gracie wants to return. I just personally think it's not a good idea to decide to return based on how other U.S. ladies fared at Worlds and Olympics. Had any of the U.S. ladies medaled in singles at either of those events, would that mean Gracie would have or should have decided not to return. I just don't think there should be emphasis placed on how others are doing as being the determinant for what Gracie decides to do. That places too many expectations as if it's about her returning to be the savior of U.S. ladies discipline. Nope, just allow everyone to be motivated to compete for their own personal reasons.

IMO Gracie's return should be more about her personal desires rather than being based on something outside of herself. And it should be for positive reasons, not negative ones. If Gracie has an added spark of motivation based on feeling she has an excellent chance to be competitive again among the current field both domestically and internationally, that's fine. But the overly gloom and doom looking down on how U.S. ladies fared at Olympics and Worlds that comes across in @UGG's commentary, I'm simply not on board with.

Everyone stepped up in the team competition at the Olympics, and it should not be overshadowed how well Mirai skated in that portion, becoming the first U.S. lady to land a 3-axel at the Olympics. That was an amazing feat and a very well-skated performance. Bradie skated well in the team event at the Olympics and very well at Worlds in both programs. She just had a few bobbles in singles at the Olympics, but it was a learning experience for her. Mirai did not skate poorly at Worlds either, though she didn't appear to skate with a lot of enthusiasm. In any case, the judges were rather harsh on Mirai at Worlds.

Nothing to do with being blonde or skating styles other than they are both kind of bland to watch. They are reliable skaters who are placing well nationally because their more talented US competitors can't get it together....which is not their fault and good for them for being able to step up to the plate. Being able to skate under pressure is also a talent, it is a shame Karen and the others really don't have that quality.

Those are blanket overstatements, IMHO. Again I don't see any significant similarities between Bradie and Rachael in terms of their skating or their personalities. At a young age, Rachael had charming aesthetic qualities, but she seemed to peak and didn't further develop in that area. She was fairly consistent technically, but I do not think Rachael placed well over other U.S. ladies because the others couldn't get it together. It's more that Rachael became a fed favorite, and then later she wasn't. Bradie's talent has come to the fore because she's healthy and committed. Again, why tie her results to what others are doing or not doing.

While Karen has had her well-documented difficulties, and it remains to be seen how she will fare going forward, I'm just going to be careful and reserve judgement on saying she isn't able to skate well under pressure. Everyone feels pressure, it's just a matter of learning how to manage it. And to give Karen credit, she learned from the pressure she felt at 4CCs, and she came back at Worlds 2017 and skated well, landing in 4th place. Sure she had trouble stepping up to the plate this past season, but let's see what she may have learned from the experience. Sometimes we fans are too quick and too harsh to judge athletes who go out there and do amazing things we can only dream of.

@berthesghost, to each their own. I don't see it the way you do. I think Bradie had a perfect right to double down on the music and program that motivated her. Athletes should follow their own instinct and not cave to fed pressure. Also, it's a snobby view IMO that skating to Disney music is such a thing to be looked down on all the time. I thought Bradie's fp was well-choreographed and interesting to watch. Yes, she needs to work on developing her aesthetics, her arm movements and her musical interpretive skills. Let's give her a chance, shall we.

The entire ladies' field around the world basically would benefit from a more outside-the-box approach to skating programs, and less of the lyrical ice-princessy mold. We need to see more variety, depth, and personal authenticity. But yeah, we are talking about status quo figure skating... At least there are often some different takes. For example, I love Wakaba Higuchi's powerful skating. I hope to see Gabby Daleman come up with something unique and not go down a path that's not who she is as a skater. Plus, it will be interesting to see if Evgenia brings something completely different to her skating. Satoko's artistry is lovely to behold, so I hope she can improve her jumping skills.

I'm interested to see how Starr Andrews' career will develop. And it would be cool if Amber Glenn and Angela Wang could shed their jitters and just take us all on a ride, cuz they both have unique personalities that it'd be rad to see come out more on the ice. Mariah Bell and Courtney Hicks too have amazing talent and different styles that could rock if they were able to put it together with a great deal of self-belief and increased confidence. And of course, what Gracie chooses to do for her comeback programs I'm anticipating.

 

[just tuned in]

I just personally think it's not a good idea to decide to return based on how other U.S. ladies fared at Worlds and Olympics. Had any of the U.S. ladies medaled in singles at either of those events, would that mean Gracie would have or should have decided not to return.

I think this is a great time for Gracie to return (if she wants to). Perhaps she will receive more love from the fans this time around, because she is not competing directly against Ashley. This could be Gracie's time, at last.

 

[Vagabond]

She'll be competing directly against Bradie Tennell. That could be or .

We shall see.

 

[Coco]

Too late to edit the original post, and I wanted to make a few changes

For funsies...

Base Value from 2018 US Figure Skating Championships (Senior Ladies Free Skate)
1 - Mirai Nagasu 65.08
2 - Bradie Tennell 62.22
3 - Mariah Bell 59.15
4 - Starr Andrews 58.16
5 - Ashley Wagner 54.96
6 - Courtney Hicks 53.93
7 - Angela Wang 53.45
8 - Karen Chen 52.44
9 - Kaitlyn Nguyen 51.75
10 - Brynne McIsaac 51.10


Sample Base Value (using 2018-2019 values)

Spins & Steps
L4 Layback 2.7
L4 flying sit 3.0
L4 combo 3.2
ChSeq 2.0
L2 Steps 2.6
13.5

Jump List - 7 triples, 2 double axels
3t3t 4.2+4.2=8.4
3z 5.9
3f 5.3
2a-1/2l-3sal 3.3+.5+4.3=8.1
**
3l 4.9*1.1=5.39
3sal2t (4.3+1.3)*1.1=6.16
2a 3.3*1.1=3.63
42.88

Total Base Value 56.38 (virtual tie for 5th in base value)

Alternate Jump List - 6 triples, 1 double axel
3z2t 5.9+1.3=7.2
3f 5.3
2z3toe 2.1+4.2=6.3
3l 4.9
**
2a2t2l [3.3+1.3+1.7]*1.1=6.93
3z 5.9*1.1=6.49
3sal 4.3*1.1=4.73
41.85

Total Base Value 55.35 (5th in base value)

When you consider that the Base Value has been decreased for 3z (-.1), combo spins (-.3), 3l (BOOOOO -.2), it's fair to knock .5 off of the 2018 Free Skate base value totals.

The point is...if she can get her 3z back, repeat it and add just 4 more triples and 1 double axel, she'll be in the mix for the final group. This depends on how the newcomers do, of course, but it will be exciting to watch so long as she takes care of herself and has a team that sticks up for her with USFSA.

 

[berthesghost]

IDK if we want to open up the can of “skating is too snobby” worms, we’ll be here all day! but at any rate, if fans and judges alike were pro-Disney programs I’d imagine we’d see more of them. Off the top of my head the only two I can think of were malinina’s aladin lp that got bad presentation marks even when skated well and kerrigan’s b&tb which got good presentation marks despite never being skated well. To be fair, it was a pretty standard Kerrigan 90s soundtrack lp and not very “Disney” ( too corny!) anyway, if Bradie wants things done her way vs doing what has to be done to score higher, then she can be the next recipient of the Surya trophy.

And I don’t get what’s so “princessy” about Kwan, Frank, Lori or Gracie. Salome, taj, red violin, tangos and firebird are too Princess?

 

[Vagabond]

IDK if we want to open up the can of “skating is too snobby” worms, we’ll be here all day! but at any rate, if fans and judges alike were pro-Disney programs I’d imagine we’d see more of them. Off the top of my head the only two I can think of were malinina’s aladin lp that got bad presentation marks even when skated well and kerrigan’s b&tb which got good presentation marks despite never being skated well. To be fair, it was a pretty standard Kerrigan 90s soundtrack lp and not very “Disney” ( too corny!) anyway, if Bradie wants things done her way vs doing what has to be done to score higher, then she can be the next recipient of the Surya trophy.

And I don’t get what’s so “princessy” about Kwan, Frank, Lori or Gracie. Salome, taj, red violin, tangos and firebird are too Princess?

Either your memory is failing or you are not a diehard Kwan fan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZxBmhbw7Gs

 

[berthesghost]

Either your memory is failing or you are not a diehard Kwan fan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZxBmhbw7Gs

Neither

I don’t consider an exhibition while you’re being paid millions by Disney/abc to be the same as choosing to do a Disney competitive lp for free. But that’s just me.

ETA didn’t she do a Pocahontas exhibition back in like 96?

 

[Tinami Amori]

I want to see "new Gracie" as a tomboy or as "little rascal", Charlie Chaplin, or Peter Pan, or something spunky (not Wagner-sassy) and nothing dramatic....
https://www.twincities.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/20140428__140429ae-gracegold2.jpg?w=620
https://images.nbcolympics.com/www....up_178237_2413.jpg?impolicy=374x539_rectangle

 

[Vagabond]

didn’t she do a Pocahontas exhibition back in like 96?

Yes, but I don't consider an exhibition while you’re being paid millions by Disney/ABC to be the same as choosing to do a Disney competitive FS for free. But that’s just me.

 

[aftershocks]

... if Bradie wants things done her way vs doing what has to be done to score higher, then she can be the next recipient of the Surya trophy.

Eh, I don't see that comparison at all. It's great for Bradie to know her own mind and to feel confident in her own skin, and with her choices. There is such a thing as caving to pressure and ending up skating to something that is not personally motivating, thus not skating well. U.S. fed interference is not always a positive thing.

Tara Lipinski was another former skater who wished to keep her Disney music and she was insistent about that with her choreographer, Sandra Bezic, who tried to steer her away from that choice. Well, we all know that Tara's choice, while not full of depth, was music Tara memorably skated the life out of. And of course, Tara ended up winning elusive Olympic gold.

 

[berthesghost]

Calling Anastasia a Disney film is like calling Diet Coke a Pepsi product but otherwise your point stands, she won overall even though her sp music was dissed. Tara is a great example of someone who could sell a program like she’s got a sales quota to fill. Bradie is not, as their Olympic results show. Bringing up great champions of the past who defied the odds doesn’t exactly help your argument that today’s crop isn’t a bunch of duds by comparison.

Gracie has the ability to sell a program, as we’ve seen from time to time. Unfortunately she was like a tv with a bad antenna. One minute the picture could be crystal clear, the next it was all static and wavy lines.

 

[RD]

Best of luck to her, if she follows through.

She should prepare herself for what is likely to come, though.

 

[giselle23]

For some reason I thought he took a season or two off. And I thought of his last Olympics as a come-back because he brought back his 1994 FP, ostensibly to reinvent the program (which unfortunately did not happen).

WRT Gracie, I would really like to see her find a style that works for her. IMO she has always been cast in the ice princess mold. This in part because she's so fair and pretty. And Frank has not helped with that - he's not the most imaginative coach when it comes to encouraging skaters to explore different styles, genres and music choices.

In Gracie's case I feel that being so very pretty has worked against her.

I think all of Gracie's problems were her own. They had nothing to do with being pretty or her music choices or Frank Carroll. She obviously put a lot of pressure on herself. She also seemed to buy into the unrealistic expectations many had for her. I think she could learn from Michelle Kwan's disappointment after 2002. At that point, when she was about the same age as Gracie, she started skating for herself and not for her coach or choreographer or her father. She chose her own music and was involved in her own choreography. She didn't pressure herself to do the 3-3 that was giving her so many problems. She just did what she did best, which was everything else. She was at the tail-end of her career, of course, but she still had an undefeated season in 2003 and managed a lot of memorable moments after that until she was forced to stop because of injuries. I hope Gracie goes out and just skates for the enjoyment of skating and lets go of all of the expectations--hers as well as others'.

 

[vesperholly]

There are so many Disney music programs at the lower levels. Skaters just grow out of it - it's children's music.

Not princessy at all, but Michael Weiss did an excellent Mulan program in 1999: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO3IARILcBo

Ilia Kulik also skated to Aladdin.

 

[Rock2]

I want to see "new Gracie" as a tomboy or as "little rascal", Charlie Chaplin, or Peter Pan, or something spunky (not Wagner-sassy) and nothing dramatic....

Child, please.

Black hair, black lipstick, freaky eye shadow and p*ssed off. Lady Gaga meets Amy Winehouse. Hold nothing back.

 

[UGG]

I applaud Gracie for coming back. What she is doing is extremely courageous and brave. As someone who suffers from both anxiety and depression. She is truly inspirational. Just admitting she was in treatment is not only courageous for herself but helps many others such as myself.

I was at 2016 Worlds in Boston and saw her from a distance with Frank was right before the long program. I didn’t know what was going through her head but I could recognize her symptoms.


That being said I posted on another board that I find it incredible that 5 out of the top 7 ladies at 2016 Worlds didn’t make it to the Olympics. Neither did the top 3 at 2016 US Nationals. Sometimes I feel this sport is moving way to fast.





Not that I’m going to drag Sasha into it but remember “drill team” comment at 2003 Worlds?, the stalker at 2003 Nationals, the shingles, the spider bites.. However I do agree by the time Torino came along she handled the defeat graciously.

True, True. I guess she usually still landed on the podium (except for Worlds 2003) so it didn't seem as desperate LOL.

 

[overedge]

Tara is a great example of someone who could sell a program like she’s got a sales quota to fill. Bradie is not, as their Olympic results show. Bringing up great champions of the past who defied the odds doesn’t exactly help your argument that today’s crop isn’t a bunch of duds by comparison.

Lipinski went into the Olympics as world champion, 2-time GPF champion, and two-time US medalist. Tennell went into the Olympics as US champion with 2 GP bronze medals. Comparing their Olympic results doesn't really prove anything about their respective abilities to sell. They were at different stages in their careers, and Lipinski had much more international experience than Tennell did (and does).

 

[aftershocks]

Calling Anastasia a Disney film is like calling Diet Coke a Pepsi product but otherwise your point stands, she won overall even though her sp music was dissed. Tara is a great example of someone who could sell a program like she’s got a sales quota to fill. Bradie is not, as their Olympic results show. Bringing up great champions of the past who defied the odds doesn’t exactly help your argument that today’s crop isn’t a bunch of duds by comparison.

Gracie has the ability to sell a program, as we’ve seen from time to time. Unfortunately she was like a tv with a bad antenna. One minute the picture could be crystal clear, the next it was all static and wavy lines.

Ha ha, I love the Gracie performance 'clear/wavy' picture/ tv antenna analogy. Hopefully, she'll come back like an up-to-date smart digital tv, and give a consistently sharp, clear picture quality performance.

As far as OT Tara, I just remembered that she skated to something associated with Disney, because Bezic spoke about trying to convince her against keeping Anastasia music. In any case, the director/producers of the Anastasia film were both former top Disney animators. So, despite Anastasia being a Fox movie production, it's clearly Disney-inspired and connected, therefore not a straight Diet Coke vs Pepsi analogy. In any case, I brung up Tara merely to point out that sticking to her guns on her music selections worked for her.

Hmmm, I wasn't attempting to directly compare Tara vs Bradie re their skating. And I wouldn't try comparing their different eras either, as Tara happened to 3/3 luck out in a MKwan-dominated era that did not have quite the same depth that exists today. Tara also went to the Olympics as the reigning World champion, so clearly she held a lot more status, rep, and recognition with the judges than Bradie had debuting at her first Olympics. This generation of U.S. ladies skaters is not less talented, but certainly they are more challenged by the huge depth that exists in the rest of the world, not to mention the current technical demands. I also truly do not feel that Tara, despite her Olympic gold medal, is such a towering great champion. Like Oksana before her, and Sarah after her, Tara was able to seize a moment in time and grab Olympic gold. That does not make her one of the all-time greats IMHO. But that's a debate for a different thread.

 

[bardtoob]

Well, we all know that Tara's choice, while not full of depth, was music Tara memorably skated the life out of.

It was age appropriate. Thank goodness.

They were at different stages in their careers, and Lipinski had much more international experience than Tennell did (and does).

Yeah, Tara turned Senior when she was like in elementary school and looked like a toe pushing back pumping roller skating dwarf, which was legal about a quarter century ago.https://youtu.be/EHU1ljH2pIw

 

[berthesghost]

Lipinski went into the Olympics as world champion, 2-time GPF champion, and two-time US medalist. Tennell went into the Olympics as US champion with 2 GP bronze medals. Comparing their Olympic results doesn't really prove anything about their respective abilities to sell. They were at different stages in their careers, and Lipinski had much more international experience than Tennell did (and does).

so... in order to score well at the 2018 Olys one needed a lot of prior international experience? Someone better tell Zag!

Hmmm, I wasn't attempting to directly compare Tara vs Bradie re their skating.

you were comparing two of their program musics that they were both warned not to use. Tara sold Anastasia in a way Bradie never sold Cinderella. Speaking strictly about their presentation skills: Tara was a phenom that generated a tremendous buzz even before she turned senior. Bradie skated two entire seasons with little to no attention paid to her, and in her 3rd year was suddenly “discovered” like she appeared out of nowhere. It’s easier to sell “bad” programs when you have an it factor. Just because Tara sold her music choice doesn’t make Sandra wrong.

 

[Simone411]

Yes, but I don't consider an exhibition while you’re being paid millions by Disney/ABC to be the same as choosing to do a Disney competitive FS for free. But that’s just me.

Don't forget about the Ultimate 4 Challenge where Michelle competed against Kristi.

Michelle Kwan - Pocahontas