Gilles/Poirier: Risk of falling outside the top 10?

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I love their SP music.... so Latin.... so different!!!!

Their free music I could do without. I don't think its original enough for them.

Anywhoooooo they are my fave team.

 

[Aerobicidal]

I love Yma Sumac and I like their short dance, but it reminds me of their disco dance last season in that it was really cool and fun at first but didn't (just speaking for myself here) hold up to multiple viewings. I don't know if that's because it could have had more nuance in the choreography, less gimmicky music in the second half, better execution, or any number of other possibilities. It might also be due to the SD format; it seems to be hard for teams to come up with voidy SDs although it's also possible that they aren't trying.

As far as the FD, I love the concept and I think the lifts are cool. However, considering all the music that could possibly connect to film noir, I absolutely can't understand why they would have chosen the particular pieces or cuts. Why not a soundtrack to Sunset Blvd or Laura, Double Indemnity, etc. etc.? I also think the mood of the program is created by the facial expressions more than anything else, and the mood doesn't match the super-acrobatic lifts. The siren at the end is cheesy in a bad way, as is the ridiculous police badge on Poirier's last costume (which also looks like Dieter from Sprockets wearing a police badge--are all the Canadian dance men inspired by old SNL episodes this season?).

Hitchcock was a great program that seemed fresh but also relatable because of the specific references in the music and choreography. The current FD feels like a lazy attempt to bring back the same tone/feel but in a superficial way with worse music. I still like it better than a lot of other ice dance programs, and the comments by Lane and Gilles aren't a deal-breaker for me even though I think they were ill-advised at best, but I'm no longer excited to see them skate.

I don't know much about choreography or technique so this is just a very unscientific opinion.

Other FDs I liked that I think they could take inspiration from: Hurtado/Diaz Picasso, many Delobel/Schoenfelder programs like Carnival in Venice and The Piano, that French junior team with the Coco Chanel program, etc.

 

[Vagabond]

I don't know much about choreography or technique so this is just a very unscientific opinion.

Don't know much about skate teknik
Don't know much choreography
Don't know much about a science book,
Don't know much about the French I took
But I do know that I love you,
And I know that if you love me, too,
What a wonderful world this would be​

​

 

[muffinplus]

Aren't the acrobatic lifts in the G/P program timed to the faster sections of the music?

 

[SamuraiK]

Russian comemntators say things like "well it's America/Canada" everytime SA/SC are aired so I won't give it too much weight on their decline this season.

 

[lauravvv]

What lacks? About everything. The choreo? Absent. The music? Dreadfull. The costumes? Brrrrrrrrrr.
There is not one single thing I like in it, and IMO I'm not alone. It's like the Pechalat/Bourzat "Time" horrid FD they had in 2010.

Choreo "absent"? What is "choreo", in your opinion? As I see it, this FD has much more choreography than the so beloved (by many fans) Hitchcock FD.

As for music, see what muffinplus wrote. And costumes - well, I agree that Pourier's police officer belt buckle is over the top, but Gilles's dress is mostly a matter of taste. I don't think that bling (or whatever it is you want to see in ice dancing costumes) is obligatory for this FD. Again, I would agree that it doesn't look "expensive", but I don't think it's terrible either.

 

[Amantide]

Aren't the acrobatic lifts in the program timed to the faster sections of the music?

Not really. It depends from the choreo. What story you want to tell or image you want to depict, an emotion or accentuate the music. It could be an epic moment as well as a very soft or subtle one.

 

[muffinplus]

Not really. It depends from the choreo. What story you want to tell or image you want to depict, an emotion or accentuate the music. It could be an epic moment as well as a very soft or subtle one.

I mean, I'm asking specifically about Paul and Piper's FD. (should have put that in the post)

 

[muffinplus]

Choreo "absent"? What is "choreo", in your opinion? As I see it, this FD has much more choreography than the so beloved (by many fans) Hitchcock FD.

Agree, not sure where the absence of choreo is ?

 

[Tak]

Music dreadful? It's jazz /noir themed from the 50s. Maybe not to everyone's taste though , but Id' take that music over contempo blah pop songs anytime...

So would I! Hard-core blues I guess is not to everyone's taste, but I loved it. They skated with a lot more attitude at RC I thought. They seemed to have toned it back at SA and to me that didn't work as well. This program needs to be hard-hitting and skated with attitude and attack to work. This is Sam Spade and Bridget O'Shaunessy time.

I think the main problem they are having with the marks is they keep making mistakes and minor glitches, which are obvious even on TV. If they can clean up the mistakes, I think it will score well. I loved their use of the Perry Mason theme. It's about time someone saw that score for what it was - classic blues!

 

[topaz]

Speaking of Gilles/Poirier's music. Some say it is a form of jazz and other says its 'modernistic orchestral music'. I've heard it called "crimejazz".

@MarieM - I guess you're not much a fan of jazz or Miles Davis either.

Here are some examples of really good film noir.

https://youtu.be/B0Jy5bdObEM - MILES DAVIS, Au Bar Du Petit Bac
https://youtu.be/Wc4tT-55ZzI - Miles Davis - Lift to the Gallow. Gorgeous Music.

 

[TwizzlerS]

Here is a great film noir free dance

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t99j7r-DGp0

 

[chapis]

Their SD is great, but I do not see them very comfortable with their FD, especially Piper, she looked lost in SA, she has never been very good technically, but having interesting programs, the judges overlooked some deficiencies, I do not think they are giving in their skating the best of them, and in the Olympic season, It is unforgivable. They need to control their nerves.

 

[arakwafan2006]

They cannot remain with C.Lane

 

[caseyedwards]

Bobrova and soloviev are having the worst season! They are Olympic gold medalists and Couldnt Even get into gpf.

V/m of Canada are frontrunners to be gold medalists. That’s g/p’s problem. And w/p too! Canada number 3 when canada could win gold and bronze

Plus no Russian ice dance teams are going to be in Pyeongchang anyway.

 

[Anyasnake]

Delobel/Schoenfelder programs like Carnival in Venice

One of the best choregraphed pieces in Ice Dance if you ask me. Gorgeous. I was 11 when I saw that in my TV during the Torino Games. Mini-me was raving about that FD.
That's also my issue with today's FDs that want to "tell a specific/famous story". This particular FD felt very authentic and very complete.
(I also think they should have won the FD but that's a personnal opinion of a 11-year old girl who was more mind-blown by them than by N/K Carmen ).

 

[MarieM]

I love jazz.

It's just that this particular choreography is dumb and missing the point completly and utterly.

What is Piper trying to portray? I don't see her playing the usual femme fatale of these movies, nor can I understand what they're trying to make Paul portray. Is he the detective? Not working.
There is no lisibility nor visible effort to make it as a whole. Their hitchkock program was way better choreographed. It all clicked and made sense considering the universe they were using at the time.
Here? it doesn't work. Nor do I think they've put the time and research to make it work.

 

[muffinplus]

I love jazz.

It's just that this particular choreography is dumb and missing the point completly and utterly.

What is Piper trying to portray? I don't see her playing the usual femme fatale of these movies, nor can I understand what they're trying to make Paul portray. Is he the detective? Not working.
There is no lisibility nor visible effort to make it as a whole. Their hitchkock program was way better choreographed. It all clicked and made sense considering the universe they were using at the time.
Here? it doesn't work. Nor do I think they've put the time and research to make it work.

I don't really understand what your criticism of the clarity of the program is... it seems quite obvious that they are going for femme fatale / detective story... am I missing something ?

 

[kirkbiggestfan]

Scrap it, and recycle the disco SD into a FD! Bring back the ugly mustache!
To me, this program does not hide her weaknesses well.

 

[Habs]

Here is a great film noir free dance

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t99j7r-DGp0

I just went down the rabbit hole of Wilson & McCall programs. They were brilliant.

 

[Aerobicidal]

It's interesting (and I genuinely mean that) to read the spectrum of opinions on G/P's music and choreography. To me, their music--including the Perry Mason theme--sounds like it came from a CD in the discount bin at the dollar store called Gr8est Hits of Public Domain Film Nor. (I'm happy to see jazz and blues in skating--at this point anything that doesn't sound like Ed Sheeran, Buble, or Andrew Lloyd Webber is joyous. Miles Davis would be awesome, although I can't imagine most skaters being able to do anything coherent or non-cringeworthy with it.)

And if the story is supposed to be about a cop and a femme fatale, okay . . . but I'm not sure how that's obvious. I mean, that's not all that much more specific than saying it's a story about a man and a woman. It's not like there is THE story of the cop and the femme fatale. Did he start investigating her, and then she seduced him, and then he chose his love/lust for her over his duty to the law or she killed him or they both got killed and that's why there's a siren at the end? I certainly have no idea. I don't really care, either--but if there's supposed to be a story that hooks me into the dance, it's not working, and if there isn't, it's also not working.

They could turn the whole thing into over-the-top cheese with the music, the badge, a story that seems to be totally archaic and sexist in 2017--make it a hilariously parody of cheesy ice dance and I would definitely be into that.

Again, this is just one person's unscientific and ultra-subjective opinion. But I would rather be rooting for G/P over, say, Nazarova/Nikitin and that's not happening right now.

 

[marbri]

Russian comemntators say things like "well it's America/Canada" everytime SA/SC are aired so I won't give it too much weight on their decline this season.

That's very true. It's happening everywhere and done by everyone. The problem with this time is that silly little instagram account (skatingprotocol)edits together a few moments to make it appear bigger and it gets more views and is shared and becomes a bigger deal and looks worse than it did in the context of commentary for the whole competition.

That aside I think the problem is their programs and lack of improvement in their abilities. I don't mind the SD so much when I watch it but I can't really remember any moments from it. Their FD I just think is a big miss and huge step down from last years FD. I can't help but wonder if they had something else in mind, it wasn't working which made them consider bringing back Hitchcock but they compromised with this so as to not bring back an old program. The lifts look like hard work and don't really add to the choreography. The theme is really ?? if it isn't explained and even still it's not that interesting. They just don't have strong enough interpretation abilities to show what they are trying to show which I understand is she is some femme fatale but I'm not getting seduction, mysterious or charming from her and he certainly doesn't appear to be ensnared by her. So yeah, I get what you want to show but it isn't coming across at all. They just don't have the type of connection between them to show this theme properly imo.

 

[muffinplus]

I'm not sure why everything need to be spelled out exactly - in terms of story. It's not like everything must have a literal interpretation. The middle part is a mood piece

 

[marbri]

Of course everything doesn't have to be spelled out exactly. V/M don't tell the whole story but it's obvious what they are showing, I have no idea what P/C are showing but it still works for them and is pretty to look at. But I don't feel any mood, theme or anything in this program and because that is lacking I see only rough entries and exits in the lifts, lack of flow over the ice, shallow unsure edges etc... I mean if we compare those flaws to similar flaws in a team like Cappellini / Lanotte I at least have something to latch onto with the Italian team ie..their interpretation/theme (and I actually find their Life is Beautiful FD on the weaker side of theirs over the last few years as well).

They just made such a huge step forward with their tango last year and now this. Having said that I think we could probably argue that pretty much every team in the top ten had stronger FDs last season but when your biggest strength is being "unique" and it fails there isn't much more to fall back on. Maybe they should take a look at that old Wilson and McCall program and try to borrow some ideas there, keep the same theme but change the music and maybe move some things around.

Anyway I only write this because a poster earlier in thread mentioned Piper open to opinions and maybe someone from their team will read this thread and accept or reject the bits and pieces people offer. Because at this point I would much rather see Soucisse/Firus go as the third Canadian team to the games, they have a better FD at this stage and unless G/P are ready to think outside their box I'd rather see the other team get some experience this year.

 

[centerpt1]

I wish they'd bring back last year's tango. Loved that dance.

 

[Bigbird]

I honestly feel their material this year is not them at their best. While I like their SD in principle, Paul in particular doesn't look very comfortable and a dance like theirs needs to be skated with abandon. As for the free it pales in comparison to their Hitchcock and last years FD. Also they seem to get very cautious/nervous at various points last season and this season, costing them performance points.

 

[Anyasnake]

Because at this point I would much rather see Soucisse/Firus go as the third Canadian team to the games, they have a better FD at this stage and unless G/P are ready to think outside their box I'd rather see the other team get some experience this year.

You do have to deal with competition for sure. But I woud be so heartbroken for them if they don't make the Olympic team. It happened last time and they would be crushed if it happens again, but they're pretty much a lock-in I think.
They could use another Senior B though.

 

[muffinplus]

"Shallow unsure edges"? They aren't THAT bad.

 

[marbri]

He isn't. But you can't honestly watch their step sequences and think she is comparable to others in the top. They are also 3 competitions in and she is yet to hit that first key point in the pattern.

 

[Tak]

I think how well anyone understands or "gets" a dance is based on their on experiences. For instance, someone used V/M as an example of a FD that was 'easy" to understand. But I never saw the movie and didn't know the storyline. When I first saw that dance at SC, I thought it was kind of a confused mess and couldn't believe this was the best they could come up with in an Olympic year. It seemed like 2 very different styles just stuck together and didn't mesh.

Then Tak explained the movie to me and I could understand what they were doing. Then it all made sense - but only because I knew what the movie was about. [Although artistically I still wish that transition was not quite so abrupt.] But that dance is only easy to understand if you saw the movie/know the story. This applies to every dance, not just this one.

I remember Pechalat/Bourzat Egyptian FD. Most people did not like it, but I thought it was brilliant. Their hand and body positions - which they maintained throughout the dance, even on elements - perfectly mimicked the style of the old tomb paintings and for me created the feel of Ancient Egypt on the ice. It was also difficult to do and I don't think they received enough credit for it. But again, I think what a person brings to Dance in terms of experiences, likes, background, is important in how anyone interprets what they see and whether they like or understand it.

I'm a longtime jazz and blues fan and love those old, b/w, film noir movies. For me, G/P dance was easy to understand the moment I saw it. It's not a linear dance - there is no story line. Think Balanchine - not every dance has a linear story line. Sometimes it's about interpreting the music.

To me, that FD perfectly captures and expresses the mood and atmosphere of film noir in Dance. IMO you have to see the totality of the piece and interpret it as a whole. It's about creating the "feel" of a film noir movie on the ice. I got it the first time I saw it and when it was over Tak turned to me and said "Now that's Sam Spade". He got it too. But he didn't mean it was literally the Maltese Falcon. He meant that dance said b/w hard-boiled detective to him and the quintessential noir gumshoe is Sam Spade. I totally agreed with him and we both understood it immediately. But if you don't watch or like these kinds of movies I can imagine someone would be totally confused by this dance.

I wouldn't call this dance a masterpiece yet. The choreography is brilliant, but they are not performing it well. They will need to step up their performance - more attitude and conviction. AND STOP MAKING THOSE STUPID MISTAKES!!!

Their lifts are very difficult and they are still struggling with them. But I don't think they should give up and change it. They are dramatic and different, and I think they should stick with them. By the end of the season I expect this dance will look a lot better than it does now. And I just hope to God they don't change it.