From Russia With Love [#40]: Summer 2021 & into the Olympic season

[Sylvia]

I'm sorry, but then why is practicing? She appears to be exempt from the rules, no?

Valieva did not practice on Feb. 9 (the day her provisional suspension was being ruled on by RUSADA).

From an article in The Guardian: "She is allowed to practise after she challenged her provisional suspension and a Rusada [Russian Anti-Doping Agency] committee ruled in her favour. However that decision is now being challenged by the International Olympic Committee and Wada [World Anti-Doping Agency], and her legal case is ongoing."

As long as her legal case is ongoing, Valieva is allowed to practice.

ETA link to my jump notes for Kamila from her 2nd practice on Friday 2/11/22: https://twitter.com/SylviaUnseen/status/1492224194247110658

 

[VGThuy]

I'm sorry, but then why is Valieva practicing? She appears to be exempt from the rules, no?

It’s complicated.

 

[reckless]

I see what you mean. That makes sense. Though I don't see that the 'European Champion and Olympic gold medal favorite' part is relevant. That seems like giving Valieva a harsh punishment to set an example.

I personally think maybe six months she will miss whole rest of season and life time suspension for coach

I think losing the rest of the season would be appropriate if it is shown she was unaware of what she was taking.

As for the European Champion and Olympic gold medal factor, I think it should be a factor in where she falls in the range of punishment that she was competing at the highest echelon against competitors who would lose multiple years if they were caught doping. With so much to gain at that level, the temptation to do whatever you can to get an advantage must be great. As long as 15-year-olds can be competitive at that level, they should be held to a higher standard than a 13-year-old competing in a regional or national event.

This is her first senior international season.

Sorry, you're right. She has been competing internationally for three years, dating back to her JGP season. International competition is a key component of the "protected person" category. If you compete internationally, you lose protected person status at 16. Otherwise, you are a protected person until 18.

 

[becca]

I think losing the rest of the season would be appropriate if it is shown she was unaware of what she was taking.

As for the European Champion and Olympic gold medal factor, I think it should be a factor in where she falls in the range of punishment that she was competing at the highest echelon against competitors who would lose multiple years if they were caught doping. With so much to gain at that level, the temptation to do whatever you can to get an advantage must be great. As long as 15-year-olds can be competitive at that level, they should be held to a higher standard than a 13-year-old competing in a regional or national event.


Sorry, you're right. She has been competing internationally for three years, dating back to her JGP season. International competition is a key component of the "protected person" category. If you compete internationally, you lose protected person status at 16. Otherwise, you are a protected person until 18.

I also think losing this years titles to of course.

I don’t know I am not going to hold a 16 year old to same standard either I posted this elsewhere at this point I am ban kids and let adults make adult choices because we will never be able to fully stop the doping.

Although nothing can stop a Russia from doping kids so they will be prepared when they are 18

 

[Allskate]

As for the European Champion and Olympic gold medal factor, I think it should be a factor in where she falls in the range of punishment that she was competing at the highest echelon against competitors who would lose multiple years if they were caught doping. With so much to gain at that level, the temptation to do whatever you can to get an advantage must be great. As long as 15-year-olds can be competitive at that level, they should be held to a higher standard than a 13-year-old competing in a regional or national event.

Yes. Unfortunately, I think there have to be rules that impose significant consequences for skaters like this regardless of their age and whether they knew. Otherwise, there's just too much of an incentive to abuse these young athletes by doping them without their knowledge and consent. (And I don't think under 16s are really capable of consent.)

I feel horrible for Valieva. She is young and it has to be horrible what she is going through, especially because it is the adults around her who are responsible for it and for not putting her wellbeing first. Even if she is allowed to skate there will be a huge asterisk. The drug is performance enhancing even if it is used before competition and not during competition. The performances of the other Russian girls also understandably will be questioned. This draws into question the fairness of the competition in general. It affects skaters from other countries unfairly.

There need to be consequences not just for the skater but for others as well. It is difficult to believe that this is not part of Russia's systemic doping. Yes, there may be innocent Russian skaters who pay the price. But, if they don't, others will pay the price. Some Russians will be doped without their knowledge, and the sport will not be clean. What is fair in this kind of case goes far beyond what is fair to Valieva and her teammates.

Adam Rippon has gone on a twitter rant about this, and he makes several good points. He is understandable heartbroken for Valieva and really mad.

https://twitter.com/AdamRippon/status/1492113667785211907

 

[Cachoo]

Has anyone in the Eteri camp loudly proclaimed their innocence at all?

 

[Vash01]

Has anyone in the Eteri camp loudly proclaimed their innocence at all?

Why should they if they are not accused of anything?

 

[aussieSKATES]

Regarding Valieva's test result, we are reminded of a 60 minutes feature where several Australian female track and field athletes who competed in the 1970s, were told that their East German counterparts had used performance-enhancing substances.

What we found particularly fascinating, was that some of the Eastern bloc competitors interviewed, didn't know they had been doped until years after the fact. They were sad and betrayed being given this artificial edge over their rivals, because they never knew their actual worth and true ability as sports people.

 

[Bouffantrex]

Why should they if they are not accused of anything?

If I was a honest coach and my skater was in this terrible situation, I would want to go on the offensive, make a statement, and get ahead of the situation. Unfortunately, I think this coach is more concerned with her looks and her personal success than the welfare of her teenage skaters.

 

[altai_rose]

Probably they're (rightly) advised by their lawyers not to say anything b/c it's a legal case.

 

[Vash01]

If I was a honest coach and my skater was in this terrible situation, I would want to go on the offensive, make a statement, and get ahead of the situation. Unfortunately, I think this coach is more concerned with her looks and her personal success than the welfare of her teenage skaters.

You are being very judgmental. Everyone does not respond to situations the way you do, and you seem to believe what you do is the only right thing.

 

[Allskate]

Has anyone in the Eteri camp loudly proclaimed their innocence at all?

Why should they if they are not accused of anything?

I think the more specific question is whether they have denied that she ever used the drug. The argument that she tested negative at other times is not the same thing. And there aren't going to be a lot of people who believe that Valieva did this on her own. Regardless of whether the complaint is officially brought against Valieva or the Eteri camp, it brings up questions about what Valieva's camp knew and did. It would be disingenuous to say otherwise.

What we found particularly fascinating, was that several of the Eastern bloc competitors interviewed, didn't know they had been doped until years after the fact. They were sad and conflicted being given this artificial edge over their rivals, because they never knew their actual worth and true ability as sports people.

Yes. Valieva never will know what would have happened otherwise. The other Russian girls also will wonder. I've never understood the desire to win at any cost, including doping. Part of what was so joyous about watching Nathan Chen the other night was not just the knowledge that he won the gold but seeing him skate so freaking well and knowing what he had done to accomplish that. He can take so much pride in that. How can someone have that kind of pride and joy if they were doped, regardless of whether it was knowing?

 

[Xela M]

Some people on this thread are either extraordinarily naive or purposefully trying to excuse the inexcusable.

 

[tony]

Yes. Valieva never will know what would have happened otherwise. The other Russian girls also will wonder. I've never understood the desire to win at any cost, including doping. Part of what was so joyous about watching Nathan Chen the other night was not just the knowledge that he won the gold but seeing him skate so freaking well and knowing what he had done to accomplish that. He can take so much pride in that. How can someone have that kind of pride and joy if they were doped, regardless of whether it was knowing?

I don't disagree necessarily, but I think it's a lot to ask of someone who is 15 to understand in it's entirety what all of this means. Of course we could say something like 'Well, a 15 year old who smokes weed or drinks alcohol probably knows what they are doing', but when it's a high-level athlete that probably has perfectly legal medicines or vitamins, I think it's hard to say that they should feel guilt for something they aren't 100% on top of. Most people don't know the first thing about mechanism of action for the medicines they do take. This is, of course, if that's actually what's happening and backed up by the sample B.

 

[Vash01]

Some people on this thread are either extraordinarily naive or purposefully trying to excuse the inexcusable.

And some people seem to think they are model of perfection.

 

[Bouffantrex]

You are being very judgmental. Everyone does not respond to situations the way you do, and you seem to believe what you do is the only right thing.

Are you on the payroll of the Eteri team or something? And yeah, if my 15 year old student tested positive for trimetazidine, I absolutely would want to be honest and upfront and make a statement and not throw that skater to the wolves.

...on the other hand, if I was the most powerful coach in a country with a documented state-sponsored doping program, then you're probably right, and I would be well-advised to keep silent.

 

[Allskate]

NBC just reported that an investigation has been launched into the "personnel surrounding Valieva" because she is a minor.

ETA:

I don't disagree necessarily, but I think it's a lot to ask of someone who is 15 to understand in it's entirety what all of this means. Of course we could say something like 'Well, a 15 year old who smokes weed or drinks alcohol probably knows what they are doing', but when it's a high-level athlete that probably has perfectly legal medicines or vitamins, I think it's hard to say that they should feel guilt for something they aren't 100% on top of. Most people don't know the first thing about mechanism of action for the medicines they do take. This is, of course, if that's actually what's happening and backed up by the sample B.

I have not said that she should feel guilty. And, as I mentioned above, I don't think that someone under 16 is really capable of consent. I think there's a very good chance she wasn't told what she was taking. It's not a question of whether she should feel guilty. What I'm saying is that she won't be able to take pride in knowing that what she accomplished was only because of her talent and hard work and not partly because of doping. All of those girls will have similar questions. Just like those eastern bloc athletes that AussieSkates mentioned.

 

[reckless]

Since we are talking about Eteri, I think this paragraph from a Washington Post article strongly suggests systemic use of medications like trimetazidine among skaters in her camp .

“Three years ago, Tutberidze said in a television interview that she doesn’t consider meldonium — another blood flow medication — to be a doping drug, and that after its 2014 World Anti-Doping Agency ban, her team had to look for a new drug with similar properties to help athletes recover.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/2022/02/11/olympics-russia-skating-testing-valieva/

 

[bladesofgorey]

We don't know what the situation was. We don't know what was said and/or done. Maybe Eteri really needed a bathroom break or whatever. This short video is offering a lot of interpretation and we should not interpret too much into it.

I finally got a chance to watch the practice from today and this is indeed a big nothing. Eteri interacted with her the entire practice off and on at the boards along with the rests of the coaching team. This clip is taken out of context as they are clearing the ice and everyone rinkside is starting to leave. A minute earlier Eteri was having her run through a jump she'd missed in the program as the zamboni was starting to come out.

 

[becca]

Since we are talking about Eteri, I think this paragraph from a Washington Post article strongly suggests systemic use of medications like trimetazidine among skaters in her camp .

“Three years ago, Tutberidze said in a television interview that she doesn’t consider meldonium — another blood flow medication — to be a doping drug, and that after its 2014 World Anti-Doping Agency ban, her team had to look for a new drug with similar properties to help athletes recover.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/2022/02/11/olympics-russia-skating-testing-valieva/

A banned drug is a banned drug and heart medication that is not tested on children heck no.

But I do see her point that athletes should be able to use things to help them physically recover from their work outs. Taking a pill that allows you to train more isn’t truly a short cut- you have to train more.

But if a particular medicine is banned it’s banned

 

[bladesofgorey]

well, taking a pill or injection that simply lets you train more is taking a performance enhancer in most cases. Many of the banned substances are used specifically for this purpose.

 

[becca]

well, taking a pill or injection that simply lets you train more is taking a performance enhancer in most cases. Many of the banned substances are used specifically for this purpose.

Once again if something is banned it’s banned and that kind of meds in a young girl is danger.

But I do see the difference between taking something that helps with muscle relief and taking something to make you jump higher.

However it is banned so it’s wrong to take it

 

[aussieSKATES]

We're reminded of a USA Today survey published over 30 years ago which included the question, that if you could take a magic pill to win Olympic Gold, but would die 10 years after the fact, would you still risk it?

We were amazed by the number of people quizzed who said they would.

 

[olympic]

Regarding Valieva's test result, we are reminded of a 60 minutes feature where several Australian female track and field athletes who competed in the 1970s, were told that their East German counterparts had used performance-enhancing substances.

What we found particularly fascinating, was that some of the Eastern bloc competitors interviewed, didn't know they had been doped until years after the fact. They were sad and betrayed being given this artificial edge over their rivals, because they never knew their actual worth and true ability as sports people.

I have seen former GDR athletes and their families being interviewed on German news programs. One story that really popped was Rica Reinisch, a backstroker who won 3 Golds in Moscow 1980 at the age of 15. Her mother noticed changes in her physique and voice, and suspected the swim federation was doing something to her daughter. So, she confronted them and removed her daughter from the system. That was pretty gutsy considering she was speaking out in that society. But did it to save her daughter.

I've seen former stars like Marita Koch (200m, 400m in Track) deny it outright.

I paid special attention to remarks made by Katarina Witt because of the system she was raised in: Don't blame Kamila but the 'responsible adults' around her.

 

[reckless]

A banned drug is a banned drug and heart medication that is not tested on children heck no.

But I do see her point that athletes should be able to use things to help them physically recover from their work outs. Taking a pill that allows you to train more isn’t truly a short cut- you have to train more.

But if a particular medicine is banned it’s banned

Meldonium, the medication she mentioned, is a treatment for angina. That is the same thing trimetazidine does. Even if it wasn’t banned, why was Eteri giving young women without heart problems angina medication.

Even if it seems safe for use, who could possibly know the long-term risk of use among girls who have barely hit puberty.

And drugs that allow you to train more and recover faster have long been banned. That is basically what androstenedione does.

 

[Bigbird]

If I was a honest coach and my skater was in this terrible situation, I would want to go on the offensive, make a statement, and get ahead of the situation. Unfortunately, I think this coach is more concerned with her looks and her personal success than the welfare of her teenage skaters.

I think after the decision is made we'll hear from ET.

 

[Karen-W]

I think after the decision is made we'll hear from ET.

I don't. She is not a stupid woman. As a few people have pointed out over in the KnC discussion, she and the entire Sambo-70 entourage could be subject to prosecution in the US for violating the WADA code. She is not going to say a word on the subject if she plans on coming to the US anytime soon. Also, she spent many years living and working in the US. I'm not sure anyone has ever inquired about her immigration/citizenship status - if she obtained US citizenship before she went back to Russia, she really would be stupid to speak about this ever.

 

[Bigbird]

I don't. She is not a stupid woman. As a few people have pointed out over in the KnC discussion, she and the entire Sambo-70 entourage could be subject to prosecution in the US for violating the WADA code. She is not going to say a word on the subject if she plans on coming to the US anytime soon. Also, she spent many years living and working in the US. I'm not sure anyone has ever inquired about her immigration/citizenship status - if she obtained US citizenship before she went back to Russia, she really would be stupid to speak about this ever.

Well when you put it this way. Makes you wonder.

EDIT: She started talking....

 

[becca]

Meldonium, the medication she mentioned, is a treatment for angina. That is the same thing trimetazidine does. Even if it wasn’t banned, why was Eteri giving young women without heart problems angina medication.

Even if it seems safe for use, who could possibly know the long-term risk of use among girls who have barely hit puberty.

And drugs that allow you to train more and recover faster have long been banned. That is basically what androstenedione does.

This I of course agree with doesn’t sound very healthy in general the idea of a drug to help you recover I do see the point but that type of medication sounds dangerous

 

[SHARPIE]

Hi all,

We have decided to reopen this thread

Russian Figure Skater tests positive for drugs - delays ceremony for team medals

As previously stated, there is a thread on this topic in the Olympic forum.

www.fsuniverse.net

Please take the Valieva discussion there. Thank you.