From Russia with Love [#35]: Winter 2019

NAOTMAA said:
Its far far worse in ice dance. They come close to dominating the majority of podiums in every event as juniors only to become total non-factors as seniors. At least a number of the men who do great as juniors can contend as seniors. They only don't cause constantly shoot themselves in the foot. In ice dance they're DOA
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S&K are silver medal contenders in ice dance.
S&B are top 5 contenders (and a long sot for bronze)
 
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Vash01 said:
S&K are silver meda contenders in ice dance.
S&B are top 5 contenders (and a long sot for bronze)
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Sorry I wasn't clear I was actually talking about the transition from juniors to seniors. S/K were never a junior team and S/B are a rare happening

If you look at the number of junior dance teams from Russia who medal on the junior circuit and then transfer to the senior ranks successfully it's horrible. For a period it was just as bad in pairs but thankfully that's changing
 
Oh, let's face it.

How many guys have not struggled this season? I mean, look at Shoma, Cha, Jin, Rizzo, Vincent's one outing, Hanyu's Nationals, Jason's NHK, Tomoki, Nadeau, Pulkinen, Sadovsky at SC, Kazuki, Krasnozhon, Tanaka, Messing. I mean, it was one GP after the next. The guys who made the Final were all very capable, as were many others that had a shot & mucked up just enough in one event or the other to miss out.

The guys on the cusp, like Siao Him Fa & Grassl, competing both at the junior & senior level are the same. A good event here. And crummy one there.

The juniors are the same. Kagiyama nails the free at Junior Nationals and Senior Nationals but meanwhile pops the axel in the SP at the JGPF and Senior Nationals. The JGPF was one "oops!" after the next except for Shun who had his misses at other events.

It's a very international state of affairs. Makes the men's events tremendously unpredictable, however. And hope flourishes.

It's not every guy who can splat on his footwork at Nationals more than one season, but they all have their own challenges;). Plus, it's hard.


Random & probably unnecessary note: I know the comparisons are plentiful between the men & the ladies this season; but as great as Anna is, she wouldn't be competing her content in the men's field. She would be expected to have an axel in the SP and one or two in the LP. And Kostornaia would be expected to do the quads. If they were doing so, they might well be as much a hot mess as Trusova & the men were here.
 
NAOTMAA said:
Its far far worse in ice dance. They come close to dominating the majority of podiums in every event as juniors only to become total non-factors as seniors. At least a number of the men who do great as juniors can contend as seniors. They only don't cause constantly shoot themselves in the foot. In ice dance they're DOA
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I almost think it hurts them to have so many good juniors. The last really successful Russian teams to transition to seniors were DomShabs and I&K. It took S&B a couple of years of mediocre results. The problem is these teams go from winning everything in juniors to promptly debuting in the 4-6 range at nationals, being at the low end of the GPs, not getting championships, and there is just nowhere to grow from there... it happened to Monko/Khaliavin, Yanovskaya/Mozgov, Skoptkova/Aleshin, Shevchenko/Eremenko, Loboda/Drozd.... they split up or just hang around for years trying to get to Worlds.

It's different in pairs and ladies because you can control your own destiny more by attempting harder content or being more consistent. But having so many ice dancers on more or less the same level seems to create stagnation instead of great competitition. The logjam is even starting to happen in the US. It took Hawayek/Baker an entire quad of hanging around to get to senior Worlds after winning juniors, and they finally started to break through a little bit, but their results are sliding this season. Carreira/Ponomarenko seemed ready for seniors, but after being successful juniors, were immediately slotted behind H&B and now it looks like they won't get to Worlds for a while either. Then there are McNamara/Carpenter, Parsons, etc.
 
Cherub721 said:
It's different in pairs and ladies because you can control your own destiny more by attempting harder content or being more consistent. But having so many ice dancers on more or less the same level seems to create stagnation instead of great competitition. The logjam is even starting to happen in the US. It took Hawayek/Baker an entire quad of hanging around to get to senior Worlds after winning juniors, and they finally started to break through a little bit, but their results are sliding this season. Carreira/Ponomarenko seemed ready for seniors, but after being successful juniors, were immediately slotted behind H&B and now it looks like they won't get to Worlds for a while either. Then there are McNamara/Carpenter, Parsons, etc.
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The whole of dance is just a log jam and probably always has been. The only way that will ever change is if some elements of risk are added into the discipline so that the placements can't be a forgone conclusion.

Dobre said:
Random & probably unnecessary note: I know the comparisons are plentiful between the men & the ladies this season; but as great as Anna is, she wouldn't be competing her content in the men's field. She would be expected to have an axel in the SP and one or two in the LP. And Kostornaia would be expected to do the quads. If they were doing so, they might well be as much a hot mess as Trusova & the men were here.
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Yes, unless you're Nathan Chen at the moment, the kind of 'hit and miss' of Trusova is what happens when the technical envelope is pushed so far every competition of the season, year in, year out. It's not really fair to compare the guys when many of them have been required to produce these multiple quad programs every time for over 4 to 5 years straight - rather than just in the window of their peak physical fitness.
 
In dance it has always been like that though. But in pairs, ladies and men there is usually bigger chance of pushing through, if one has the technical content and is consistent. That’s why it is sad that the Russian men don’t really transition that well to seniors. For example, let’s look at Samarin. He has the potential to be great, he has the jumps, but then he also managed to mess up and be only 8th and 6th at Europeans. (Not as if there were that many great men in Europe, so without having unreasonable expectations, those competitions he definitely underperformed). Then last year he finally did well at the Europeans (2nd) and then messed up at worlds. I didn’t expect him to medal, but with the score from Europeans, he would have been 5th at worlds. In Russian ladies, it also started with one or max two ladies moving to seniors each season, but they were able to manage the pressure and be consistent.
 
NAOTMAA said:
It took Hawayek/Baker an entire quad of hanging around to get to senior Worlds after winning juniors, and they finally started to break through a little bit, but their results are sliding this season. Carreira/Ponomarenko seemed ready for seniors, but after being successful juniors, were immediately slotted behind H&B and now it looks like they won't get to Worlds for a while either. Then there are McNamara/Carpenter, Parsons, etc.
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McNamara & Carpenter, Michael Parsons, and Carreira & Ponomarenko have been fighting it out within international proximity of each other for three years. Hawayek & Baker, McNamara & Carpenter, and Michael Parsons were fighting it out two years before that. I think it's terrific! They are learning to be strong competitors and they should all know that the results can be different depending on the quality of their programs, how they skate, and the need to keep striving & improving. If they do--if they stick it out and continue improving--it is highly likely that they will all go through wins & losses, rough seasons & great ones.

Evan Bates, Madison Hubbell, the Shibs, Madison Chock, Piper Gilles, & Zach Donohue have been fighting it out for a decade. It has made for very competitive athletes. The next generation has to deal with the fact that some of those athletes are still at the top.

But they also have terrific role models. How many times were each of those athletes counted out or told they would be stuck behind someone else? Hubbell & Donohue went to Worlds their first season together, finished 10th, and didn't get back there for three years, when they again finished 10th. They had a lot of learning to do. They are still learning. And they are competing four years longer than a lot of people anticipated; but this is the beautiful thing about ice dance. You can keep improving & keep competing & keep contending.

Sinitsina & Katsalapov missed the World team 3 out of their first 4 years as a team. Then won a World silver medal.

The young American and young Russian teams and/or athletes with high-quality basics can succeed. They need support, a partner with the same goals, quality coaches who believe in them, funding, fair judging, grit for dealing with the injuries, political setbacks, disappointments, and learning challenges along the way. And time.

Chock & Bates, Hubbell & Donohue, Sinitsina & Katsalapov, and Stepanova & Bukin are not going to go on forever. (I could maybe imagine S&B doing 4 more years after China but I'd be really surprised if any of the others do). So--right now--the young teams fight for the third spot, which is not easy but is also far from sewn up in both countries and the teams learn & improve so that they're ready for opportunities that lie ahead.

(Shoot, we don't even know if S&K and S&B will be allowed to compete at the Olympics. It's also plausible and, despite the press, has always has been plausible that Carreira won't get citizenship until after 2022. Plus we all hope everyone stays healthy, as just in the last two years we've had injuries for various teams in the mix. These are all realities, challenges, and part of the journey).
 
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hanca said:
In dance it has always been like that though.
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It was different in the 80s and 90s. There were a lot of good teams but then there were really excellent ones, and those ones got to the top right away (now there are just a lot of "good teams."). Teams like K&P and U&Z would get to Euros as alternates and win some medals, and then as soon as the veteran teams retired they won medals at Worlds. Teams like G&P, if they were excellent teams, got on the World team right away and made an impact. If you weren't as great you just got skipped over. Now the teams in the top 3 don't have such great results (compared to the past), but yet the good young teams don't pass them, they just sit in the middle range at Nationals waiting for those other teams to retire (who are getting maybe one non-gold World medal in their career - Kohklova/Novitski, Bobrova/Soloviev, maybe Sinitsina/Katsalapov too).
 
Cherub721 said:
It was different in the 80s and 90s. There were a lot of good teams but then there were really excellent ones, and those ones got to the top right away (now there are just a lot of "good teams."). Teams like K&P and U&Z would get to Euros as alternates and win some medals, and then as soon as the veteran teams retired they won medals at Worlds. Teams like G&P, if they were excellent teams, got on the World team right away and made an impact. If you weren't as great you just got skipped over. Now the teams in the top 3 don't have such great results (compared to the past), but yet the good young teams don't pass them, they just sit in the middle range at Nationals waiting for those other teams to retire (who are getting maybe one non-gold World medal in their career - Kohklova/Novitski, Bobrova/Soloviev, maybe Sinitsina/Katsalapov too).
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Actually, I was comparing the results of Russian nationals from last year and this year and things are changing even in ice dance. But it is a slow process, because ice dance is much more subjective in the marking than singles and pair skating.
For example, for a few years I was wondering why Evdokimova/Bazin keep placing so high, considering I couldn’t see much improvement (I am sorry, I don’t want to offend their fans, but to me they seem to be stagnating). Now they moved from last year’s third place to this year seventh place. Morozov/Bagin went from 8th place to 4th place. Spilevaya/Smirnov from 6th to 9th. I am glad that there is some move in the placements. It was getting a bit boring to think that they were ‘allocated’ certain place and they won’t move up while those above them still compete.
 
I expected Artur to be hit and miss this season trying to incorporate the 4 sal in the SP (hence always having a deficit to make up in the free skate, which he has been successful in doing). I'd say give him one more season and he'll be more of a firm top 2 (or even best).
 
Seerek said:
I expected Artur to be hit and miss this season trying to incorporate the 4 sal in the SP (hence always having a deficit to make up in the free skate, which he has been successful in doing). I'd say give him one more season and he'll be more of a firm top 2 (or even best).
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I only regret he did not keep on working on his Gladiator programme. That's a beautiful programme and he would do well just perfecting it.
 
Edgecase said:
Yes, and Trusova IMO looks a little like Katy Taylor who had a friendly rivalry with Kimmie as the two were climbing up the ranks.
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THE CHICKLETS preceded THE TROIKA!

in the mid-00s, the Us jr ranks had 3 prominent 14/15-yr old up and comers...famous “CHICKLETS” fluff on ABC/ESPN stations. One of them dreamt of acquiring a pink Hummer vehicle.
 
Re: S/K and S/B .... :D New "food fight!" - Tarasova vs. Zhulin... :revenge::revenge:
Tarasova is a dead-head supporter of S/B, for a number of personal reasons. Gets frustrated when they don't place as she thinks they should. She made plenty of veiled remarks against other teams and their coaches who came ahead of S/B.. :lol:

During Russian Nationals FD, in a capacity of an official commentator, on National TV - Channel #1, Tarasova implies (but it was rather blunt, not so much an imply) that Sin/Kats' 1st place and marks is an arrangement and not fair.

Zhulin is upset, and gives an interview to the RT, with this comment:

"To imply that the 1st place finish for my skaters Sin/Kats is a dishonesty, in my view, is simply degrading to the skaters and their coaching team. It is not a question that Tarasova is a coach with authority. But I believe that if you are in the position of an official speaker for the event on the Federal Channel, it is not permissible to make such comments in front of the whole world. This is not a reality show, not a bunch of girlfriends kitchen-chat, but mass audience."
-----

I am a fan of S/B and NOT a fan of S/K, and... i am not expert in ice dance. but.. i did think S/K's RD was judged fairly compared to S/B, and it is RD's scores that gave S/K the win... in my view it was fair.
 
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Moka-Ananas said:
Tarasova is really making an effort to piss off everybody :lol:
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Rukavicin is next..... :D

On the russian live feed Tarasova, during SP, started digging into Gubanova for her weight and size. After Gubanova finished her SP (with several mistakes on the jumps) Tarasova said "she grew up large" (another alternative translation "she is now big"). The two guys commentating with her tried to speak over her, or kicked her under the table, so she stopped on the next word. She stayed quiet for few moments, but when the screen showed jump repeats, could not resist and went on saying "you see.... when girls gain even just a little bit of weight, they can no longer jump... and what have we here.. is much more weight than permitted (alt transl: a lot more weight than normal).

Viewers noted it, maybe text complaints, so during Gubanova's FS only the guys were commenting, and Tarasova had to stay quiet, did not say one word about her skate... except towards the end something general about coaches.
--
Opinions split on Tarasova's behavior.
  • some think "she accomplished so much, did so much for the national sport, she is entitled to say whatever she wants, where-ever she wants - she earned that right".
  • others think she can say what she wants in private setting, with willing listeners, but on public resources she must keep neutral and follow code of ethics of any journalist/commentator.
Immortelle said:
Would Zhulin get so upset if there wasn’t a grain of truth in what Tarasova is saying?
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Oh, no! People get A LOT MORE upset when what is said about them is a lie or not truth.

Plus, with Tarasova, she is such a manipulator herself when it comes to placements, advancements, points in judging, that coming from her it is ridiculous. She says what's convenient for her personally, not because she is fighting for justice. Bestmeyanova is her best friend. Bukin Sr. is Besty's partner, Ivan is his son. Tarasova is protecting "her clan". That's all there is to it. Not because she if for fair sport.
 
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Immortelle said:
I’m not sure, I think Zhulin would have dismissed it if it was completely without grounds.
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He can't....... The problem with Tarasova is that she is a big authority in figure skating, and when general audience watch her on prime time federal channel, where she is in an official capacity which is another level of authority, what she said can be taken as truth.

Also... if someone with authority tells a lie or untruth about one, and one does not object, people accept it as "agreeing" and "having nothing to say in one's defense".

Remember how people on this board, and on other boards and social media, jumped up in arms and even started petition when Yagudin expressed unfavorable opinion about Jason Brown? Did that mean that Yagudin was correct? Should the people not say anything if what Yagudin said was untrue?
 
Great interview with Medvedeva: https://fs-gossips.com/evgenia-medvedeva-i-will-do-everything-in-my-power-to-return-stronger/

Particularly liked this quote: But this is an experience that will temper me and I will become even stronger. I will continue to work, I love you all and we will see each other again many times.

Alegria is actually one of my guilty pleasure songs (I listen to it far too much than I should) so I am looking forward to Medvedeva's program to it. It actually reminds me more of Shawn Sayer's version than anything.

www.youtube.com

Shawn Sawyer • Alegria [HFOI 2012]

Holiday Festival on Ice 2012 Skater: Shawn Sawyer http://www.skatetoday.com/shawnsawyer/ http://www.skateshawn.com/ Hi everyone, it's sigyn27 here :) I decid...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
 
Not quite sure where to put this little masterpiece of the exquisitely fluid & musical Kamila Valieva, skating to Eric Radford’s music. Chemnitz gala, a week ago. Sigh. May Valieva be with us at the elite level for many, many years! (Kostornaia and others too.)

m.youtube.com

Emotions on Ice 2019, Eric Radford & Kamila Valieva

Emotions on Ice, 28.12.2019, Chemnitz, Eric Radford plays on the piano his own composition for Kamila Valieva
m.youtube.com m.youtube.com
 
babayaga said:
Yes, this is correct. Plays the prince and Alina is the princess.
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I love both Alina and Hotarek, but tbh I think it’s a bit awkward that they hired a 35-year-old man to play the prince when the princess is only 17. (They did the same with Lipnitskaya and Plushenko in the Cinderella show). I know it’s just an ice show, but you’d think they could find skaters without such a large age gap.

Frau Muller said:
Not quite sure where to put this little masterpiece of the exquisitely fluid & musical Kamila Valieva, skating to Eric Radford’s music. Chemnitz gala, a week ago. Sigh. May Valieva be with us at the elite level for many, many years! (Kostornaia and others too.)

m.youtube.com

Emotions on Ice 2019, Eric Radford & Kamila Valieva

Emotions on Ice, 28.12.2019, Chemnitz, Eric Radford plays on the piano his own composition for Kamila Valieva
m.youtube.com m.youtube.com
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This is so beautiful! Kamila is a beautiful skater and Eric is an incredible musician; it’s a match made in heaven!
 
Mad for Skating said:
I love both Alina and Hotarek, but tbh I think it’s a bit awkward that they hired a 35-year-old man to play the prince when the princess is only 17. (They did the same with Lipnitskaya and Plushenko in the Cinderella show). I know it’s just an ice show, but you’d think they could find skaters without such a large age gap.
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They need a highly experienced male pairs skater to lift Zagitova - so that he is skilled enough to make up for her lack of experience so he doesn't drop her on her head. There's a lot that ladies in pairs do to get up in those lifts that Zagitova wouldn't know how to do and experience from the man helps them know how to compensate for this. (This was on display during Battle of the Blades).

I expect that if one is picking from retired experienced pairs skaters, they are always going to be a lot older than 17. I actually can't think of any famous retired male pairs skater who is Alina's age who could be casted instead. If I was Zagitova, I'd rather an experienced 35 year old Hotarek lift me than someone with less experience. Some of the younger pairs guys can't get elements right even when the lady is doing everything correct from her end.

The only other option would be to not give Zagitova a lead role because of her age, and that's unlikely to happen. The reality is that retiring so young to go professional puts Zagitova into an adult world. But I think Zagitova has said that she found it really positive to speak to the older more experienced skaters on previous tours as they gave her some insight and advice that was very helpful to her.
 
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