From Russia with love [#28]: Autumn to Winter 2017

MarieM

Grumpy Cynical Ice Dance Lover
Messages
9,532
That's 4 years in a row that T&M have dreadfull long programs that don't really play to their strengths at all. At least their SPs were all really good.
But this FP is a monstruosity. Both in composition and the way they just can't skate it.
Evgenia is a star, she needs a coach to teach her to OWN the ice like Aljona and Sui do.
 

caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
Messages
15,655
Do you think Mozer can give them that packaging? I don't. Hence the coaching change they need.

Everyone they talk to in Pyeongchang is saying the same thing! Hamilton, belbin, Weir, lipinski, browning, everyone in the whole figure skating world is saying classical classical classical! What were they going to switch their free skate in Pyeongchang? No they couldn’t do that! But surely all agreeing that t/m should be classical got through! How could it not get through after being total joke of the Olympics?

That's 4 years in a row that T&M have dreadfull long programs that don't really play to their strengths at all. At least their SPs were all really good.
But this FP is a monstruosity. Both in composition and the way they just can't skate it.
Evgenia is a star, she needs a coach to teach her to OWN the ice like Aljona and Sui do.

Yes but if this was a worlds I could see them not getting it but now I do think mozer can change and a new coach is not necessarily the answer!
 

Ka3sha

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,405
Is Moskvina planning to coach till 100?
No, but who knows, it’s Moskvina after all ;)
What is more important, she has opened her Academy in St Petersburg, that means that now pair skaters have better conditions and more ice time than they had before (it’s one of the main problems in St Pete, even Mishin always complained about lack of ice time). She invited Vasiliev, Minchuk, Berezhnaya and others to work there, afaik, Stanislav Morozov also joined them not far ago. Maybe (and most likely) this new coaching team won’t have any momentary results, but I sincerely hope that Mozer and her school won’t monopolize all Russian pairs next Olympic circle like she did after Sochi.
 

text_skate

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,076
I'm kinda sad, that T/M didn't make the podium, on the other hand, I'm glad, that this program didn't win a medal. I really hope, that they will get better programs next season. I don't care with which coaches, as long as they respect the great quality of this team and award them programs, choreography accordingly
 

Amantide

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,019
Maybe (and most likely) this new coaching team won’t have any momentary results, but I sincerely hope that Mozer and her school won’t monopolize all Russian pairs next Olympic circle like she did after Sochi.

I agree, but neither do I want another school monopolize the next 4 years. Diversity is good and competition within the country even better. It used to be St. Pet vs Moscow in the "good old times" also. :)
Come on, Russia! You can do this!!!:respec:
 

SLIVER

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,418
Do we know who chose Christina Aguilera?
There were so many monitors and the fed is so heavily involved from early on in the season, I am stunned no one stopped this madness.

However and this a big however, the horrid programme had no consequence on their result and that's the scariest message. The prog ultimately doesn't matter if you are landing your elements.
Look at those PCS scores, absolutely massive as they have been all year.
Utter farce.

That's the answer I think, they thought, if they skate clean, with their power and speed, it won't matter if they skate to screaching cats. The judging in this sport is still totally ridiculous. There's no way t/m should have placed above j/c in free.

On a last note, t/m's free reminded me of that awful piece of crap free from Grishuk/p in 94, they at least skated it well and their risky, out there choice, was pretty relevant for that time.
 

Amantide

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,019
Do we know who chose Christina Aguilera?
There were so many monitors and the fed is so heavily involved from early on in the season, I am stunned no one stopped this madness.

However and this a big however, the horrid programme had no consequence on their result and that's the scariest message. The prog ultimately doesn't matter if you are landing your elements.
Look at those PCS scores, absolutely massive as they have been all year.
Utter farce.

I don't know why but it doesn't surprise me. They let V&T have that LP in Sochi too. Granted, not as bad as this one but for V&T quality and level it was MEH...at best. :blah:
But you are right. In the end, they would've been in the podium with a silver, maybe, if they had skated clean.
 

nimi

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,670
If you want better programs with a higher level of taste, Trankov is not the answer. :shuffle:
Oh yeah, T/M skating to elevator muzak version of a Lionel Richie song was thanks to him, right? *cringe*

She invited Vasiliev, Minchuk, Berezhnaya and others to work there, afaik, Stanislav Morozov also joined them not far ago.
Stan Morozov working in St Petersburg is news to me. Is he there full-time or more like a visiting consultant?

Btw, I was watching Savchenko/Morozov's Jr Worlds FS from 2000 and there was one fancy lift entry that looked somewhat familiar, although not identical to the one T/M have been doing for two seasons. I wonder if Sav/Mor or their coach came up with that or were there already pairs doing this type of entry long before them? (My knowledge of pre-IJS pairs programs is pretty spotty.)
 

Xela M

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,616
I really like T&M - they represent gorgeous, classical pairs skating at its best and they appear to be very nice people, which is why it's almost beyond belief that it was possible to give them a programme that would make them look this bad. Evgenia also has an absolutely killer body, which keeps getting lost in the most monstrous dresses.
 

barbarafan

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,815
Sigh, I knew T/M would blow it, they just can't handle the pressure :duh: and of course the haters are out in full force :mad:

It's been pretty bad all round, only Evgenia and Alina can save these Olympics for Russia now so fingers crossed

They skate so beautifully.I love their lines. I have liked them for years but they were dismissed supposedly because their programs were blah.Then last year they did something new in the short (which I loved)and I think she showed real personality. Then people thought it did not suit her. It would appear that most people hate Candyman. I can't say I hate it but it is falling flat for me..I do not like her costume though.

No fears for Evgenia and Alina. They are mentally very tough and so well trained. They will fly.
 

NAOTMAA

Well-Known Member
Messages
884
If you want better programs with a higher level of taste, Trankov is not the answer. :shuffle:

You know he always complained and got all passive bitchy about the programs Vasiliev gave him when he was part of M/T.

I remember when he finally dumped them and teamed up with Tatiana he was acting like he would finally be skating to "art" and great new things. He could finally become a great artist on ice now that he was free of his ball and chains. Or at least that's the vibe I got.

Well the programs weren't all that jazz either I be frank. Only their great skating saved them. Their Olympic winning LP..... Blah. Unless he was delusional about them and did think they were great.
 

SLIVER

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,418
I don't know why but it doesn't surprise me. They let V&T have that LP in Sochi too. Granted, not as bad as this one but for V&T quality and level it was MEH...at best. :blah:
But you are right. In the end, they would've been in the podium with a silver, maybe, if they had skated clean.
I am inclined to think with a 5 point lead, had they gone clean, they would have won the whole thing, 2nd on the free.
 

caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
Messages
15,655
Do we know who chose Christina Aguilera?
There were so many monitors and the fed is so heavily involved from early on in the season, I am stunned no one stopped this madness.

However and this a big however, the horrid programme had no consequence on their result and that's the scariest message. The prog ultimately doesn't matter if you are landing your elements.
Look at those PCS scores, absolutely massive as they have been all year.
Utter farce.

That's the answer I think, they thought, if they skate clean, with their power and speed, it won't matter if they skate to screaching cats. The judging in this sport is still totally ridiculous. There's no way t/m should have placed above j/c in free.

On a last note, t/m's free reminded me of that awful piece of crap free from Grishuk/p in 94, they at least skated it well and their risky, out there choice, was pretty relevant for that time.
It’s wrong to think that all mistakes happen in some kind of vacuum and that they aren’t influenced by everyone saying your program is total garbage and you don’t belong on the podium or even to be one the same ice as the other teams! The mistakes were created by the tense atmosphere by thinking having to defend the worst pairs program of all time! It’s not the judges place in ijs to say bad music just how skaters skate to the music!
 
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SLIVER

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,418
It’s wrong think that all mistakes happen in some kind of vacuum and that they aren’t influenced by everyone saying your program is total garbage and you don’t belong on the podium or even to be one the same ice as the other teams! The mistakes were created by the tense atmosphere by thinking having to defend the worst pairs program of all time! It’s not the judges place in ijs to say bad music just how skaters skate to the music!
I agree bad composition can lead to errors but the mapping of the prog is essentially the same as last year's prog. I think they just buckled under the pressure of skating last and knowing gold was a real opportunity, even Mozart might not have saved them.
Re the judges and music, I never said the judges vote for musical preference but the interpretation, choreography, body movements and involvement were all horrid, Aguillera is most definitely not for them (especially him!)
 

NAOTMAA

Well-Known Member
Messages
884
Reading many of the posts it seems the biggest problem with Mozer is she lets her pupils have too much of a say on what they want. I mean nobody wants the coach to be a dictator or anything but she needed (on many many occasions) to put her foot down as coach and set things right. She clearly hasn't. It's why so many of her teams appear lost in the wilderness.

I guess we can credit Ksenia's fabulousness for the programs S/K get. She'll make one hell of a choegrapher when she retires (hopefully not in the recent future though)
 

TAHbKA

Cats and garlic lover
Messages
17,316
Reading many of the posts it seems the biggest problem with Mozer is she lets her pupils have too much of a say on what they want. I mean nobody wants the coach to be a dictator or anything but she needed (on many many occasions) to put her foot down as coach and set things right. She clearly hasn't. It's why so many of her teams appear lost in the wilderness.
More like a lack of taste in her case. I.e. it's not only that her pupils have a say, she thinks it's a good stuff they are skating to.
I guess we can credit Ksenia's fabulousness for the programs S/K get. She'll make one hell of a choegrapher when she retires (hopefully not in the recent future though)
The :sekret: told that Stolbova actually had to fight for her programmes. That when they had their fab programme to 50 shades of grey the original offer by Morozov was... pirates of carebians. For Stolbova, of all the skaters.
 

Vash01

Fan of Yuzuru, Three A's, T&M, P&C
Messages
50,179
That's 4 years in a row that T&M have dreadfull long programs that don't really play to their strengths at all. At least their SPs were all really good.
But this FP is a monstruosity. Both in composition and the way they just can't skate it.
Evgenia is a star, she needs a coach to teach her to OWN the ice like Aljona and Sui do.

Candyman music did seem like a monstrosity to me when i first saw that program. It is so Not them. I didn't mind the Parking Spot costume as much as i minded the music. Zhenya has a lovely personality off the ice. It n Boston she was smiling, letting fans take selfues with her. I saw that smile in the Candyman program. However, it did not showcase their biggest strengths, IMO. Still, they could have won abmedal with a clean performance. I would lije them to work with Lori Nichols. She helped young Michelle Kwan find herself, and Shen & Zhao became a completely different pair after working with her. However, the RSF may not approve this. Anothe good choreographer could be Shanty Rushpaul, who choreographed for K&P in 1992.

No, but who knows, it’s Moskvina after all ;)
What is more important, she has opened her Academy in St Petersburg, that means that now pair skaters have better conditions and more ice time than they had before (it’s one of the main problems in St Pete, even Mishin always complained about lack of ice time). She invited Vasiliev, Minchuk, Berezhnaya and others to work there, afaik, Stanislav Morozov also joined them not far ago. Maybe (and most likely) this new coaching team won’t have any momentary results, but I sincerely hope that Mozer and her school won’t monopolize all Russian pairs next Olympic circle like she did after Sochi.

I hope the academy can help T&M, but are they willing to move to Peter?

They skate so beautifully.I love their lines. I have liked them for years but they were dismissed supposedly because their programs were blah.Then last year they did something new in the short (which I loved)and I think she showed real personality. Then people thought it did not suit her. It would appear that most people hate Candyman. I can't say I hate it but it is falling flat for me..I do not like her costume though.

No fears for Evgenia and Alina. They are mentally very tough and so well trained. They will fly.

I have always liked them. I saw them as juniors first. I didn't mind their programs until last year's LP. It was horrible. Even they didn't like it. Zhenya said it was put together in a hurry. She seemed to like the Candyman program though. IMO Candyman is more suitable for A&R.

With your last sentence you just jinxed the other Zhenya and Alina. LOL. Now i am really worried about them. :)

You know he always complained and got all passive bitchy about the programs Vasiliev gave him when he was part of M/T.

I remember when he finally dumped them and teamed up with Tatiana he was acting like he would finally be skating to "art" and great new things. He could finally become a great artist on ice now that he was free of his ball and chains. Or at least that's the vibe I got.

Well the programs weren't all that jazz either I be frank. Only their great skating saved them. Their Olympic winning LP..... Blah. Unless he was delusional about them and did think they were great.

I agree. With the exception of Masquerade Waltz, V&T didn't have great programs. It proves that ultimately what matters is how they skate. It is less about the programs. I still want T&M to have programs that bring out their strengths, and help them realize their immense potential. They are like Gracie Gold. Tremendous talent but they just can't get it done. I think they need a magician like Tamara.

If she doesn't want to coach anymore, may be Dmitriev (since he is in Moscow- if they don't want to move)?

Don't hate me for saying this, but could Tatiana Tarasova help them bring out their emotions without losing their technical skills?

I think it is very sad that in the last three Olympics, Russian pairs made the podium just once. It was a gold but it did not start another chain of Russian pairs winning OGMs. I love Russian pairs skating so much! I want them to regain the glory if not the dominance of the past.
 

caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
Messages
15,655
I agree bad composition can lead to errors but the mapping of the prog is essentially the same as last year's prog. I think they just buckled under the pressure of skating last and knowing gold was a real opportunity, even Mozart might not have saved them.
Re the judges and music, I never said the judges vote for musical preference but the interpretation, choreography, body movements and involvement were all horrid, Aguillera is most definitely not for them (especially him!)

All skaters know there’s going to be that corridor. That they won’t really see drop offs in certain categories if the judges don’t like the interpretation. It would be nice if scores could go 9 9 6 3 0 but that’s not happening. It’s sad. If tarasova and morozov had a PCs score that included zeroes or not zeroes because that’s too extreme but maybe 5’s - that would’ve been great information for them. Maybe they would’ve used it to change. But because that’s not happening there is the commentary by tv people and media and retired now skaters! They were sending clear messages to change. Then at Olympics it blew up! If they had done team it may have happened earlier. But you have normal pressures that caused people to make errors and extra worst program of all time pressure.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
Messages
65,254
I'm sorry for Tarasova/Morozov. I know they're devastated. The Russian pairs took a hard hit this Olympics. I'm sure this will just make them stronger. I would do the happy dance for two Russian teams to medal at Worlds in Milan. Shake it off and look to Savchenko if you need a role model. It's not over till you say it's over. Olympic pressure is unbelievable when you are in a medal position. But, they have four more years to continue to grow as skaters and as a team. Their day will come.
 
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caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
Messages
15,655
Candyman music did seem like a monstrosity to me when i first saw that program. It is so Not them. I didn't mind the Parking Spot costume as much as i minded the music. Zhenya has a lovely personality off the ice. It n Boston she was smiling, letting fans take selfues with her. I saw that smile in the Candyman program. However, it did not showcase their biggest strengths, IMO. Still, they could have won abmedal with a clean performance. I would lije them to work with Lori Nichols. She helped young Michelle Kwan find herself, and Shen & Zhao became a completely different pair after working with her. However, the RSF may not approve this. Anothe good choreographer could be Shanty Rushpaul, who choreographed for K&P in 1992.



I hope the academy can help T&M, but are they willing to move to Peter?



I have always liked them. I saw them as juniors first. I didn't mind their programs until last year's LP. It was horrible. Even they didn't like it. Zhenya said it was put together in a hurry. She seemed to like the Candyman program though. IMO Candyman is more suitable for A&R.

With your last sentence you just jinxed the other Zhenya and Alina. LOL. Now i am really worried about them. :)



I agree. With the exception of Masquerade Waltz, V&T didn't have great programs. It proves that ultimately what matters is how they skate. It is less about the programs. I still want T&M to have programs that bring out their strengths, and help them realize their immense potential. They are like Gracie Gold. Tremendous talent but they just can't get it done. I think they need a magician like Tamara.

If she doesn't want to coach anymore, may be Dmitriev (since he is in Moscow- if they don't want to move)?

Don't hate me for saying this, but could Tatiana Tarasova help them bring out their emotions without losing their technical skills?

I think it is very sad that in the last three Olympics, Russian pairs made the podium just once. It was a gold but it did not start another chain of Russian pairs winning OGMs. I love Russian pairs skating so much! I want them to regain the glory if not the dominance of the past.
It was a gold and a silver In Sochi. and then silver was banned 2 weeks before Pyeongchang! You never now how the banned team would have done. They were the ones getting the support and funding and third in the free skate in Finland.
 
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caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
Messages
15,655
I'm sorry for Tarasova/Morozov. I know they're devastated. The Russian pairs took a hard hit this Olympics. I'm sure this will just make them stronger. I would do the happy dance for two Russian teams to medal at Worlds in Milan. Shake it off and look to Savchenko if you need a role model. It's not over till you say it's over.
This was not The pairs entries russia was developing! They had a major committment to Stolbova and Klimov and then she was banned! For no explanation specific to her yet! It’s a total mystery. Totally and completely. But Russia still has two pairs teams leave pyeongchang with Olympic silver medals. It’s better than Vancouver. Now t/m and z/e are Olympic silver medalists and Russia pairs have that to buIld on for Beijing.
 

NAOTMAA

Well-Known Member
Messages
884
Don't hate me for saying this, but could Tatiana Tarasova help them bring out their emotions without losing their technical skills?

Wasn't it Tarasova who publicly lambasted I/K prior to Sochi (during program presentation camp? I forgot what it's called) about their training habits and behavior? I seem to remember her basically telling them to quit effing aound and get their act together.

That's what needs to happen here. They need somebody of her stature to publicly call team Mozer out and light a fire. And live up to the Russian reputation and don't mince words! So far it seems Mozer is handled with gloves and that needs to stop.
 

MAXSwagg

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,854
Sorry, V/T mostly had good programs. JCS may not have been so good at Sochi but it was amazing at Skate America. Their return programs of Bollywood and Dracula were also amazing and the most difficult of any pair that season (let’s not forget that crap LP that Aliona and Bruno skated to in 2015-16 as well, that was clearly her idea). Swan Lake and Romeo & Juliet were also very good.

Also most of Stolbova/Klimov programs have been very good also. People act like Mozer is 100% miss.
 

Katha

Well-Known Member
Messages
359
T/M aren't the most charismatic, but they can perform nicely if given proper material. But yeah...all their LPs so far have been crap. It seems like they themselves don't quite know what suits them and they don't get proper stylistic guidance from their team. It's a shame, they're so talented. And you actually see their potential in the SP, but it gets buried by tackiness in the LP.

Were they stronger performers, they might cover up bad programs. V/T have skated their fair share of generic nonsense and gotten away with it. Someone mentioned Ghost...IMO hot contender for worst FD of all time. Yet at Euros that year, I/K, for all that they were trainwreck central for most of their career, performed the heck out of it and made the judges forget what a monstrosity they were watching. T/M can't do that, and they obviously don't have strong enough instincts when it comes to chosing suitable vehicles for themselves. They need help.
 

lala

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,808
I think Hekalo or Gaszi choreographed it though? This "blandness" is just who they are on the ice. People for get they tried Chopin. I saw it live in Boston. It didn't work. I mean, people are so rude about T/M (and Duhamel's reaction when Tarasova just broke down in the K&C was disgusting). Did it occur to anyone that this is what they wanted to skate to? Or that they like it and believe in it?

I found Megan adorable in the K&C.
 

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