I like how IJS is about the skater and the program. 6.0 was all about the judges and their placements. IJS means that you can actually look at a score sheet and see where a skater can improve. Of course political judging is still there, but I think there is a better accounting of what is actually happening on the ice.
Figure skating in the United States is on thin ice
- Thread starter clairecloutier
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People aren't dumb. They can understand that artistic sports should be scored differently than sports that don't have an artistic element.
I didn't say anything about people being dumb. Said poster made a sarcastic comment and I pointed out that the way to earn points in football is about as straight-forward as possible, so there's no comparison between the two IMO. Look past the components score and solely focus on the intricacies of the elements within skating, and these are things that even hardcore fans on this board still don't know much about.
Casual fans or most new fans aren't going to learn them either, and not much is going to make sense. But I've already voiced my own reasons for why I like IJS better in several different posts in this thread without having to make facetious comments with no relevance to the skating scoring situation.
And, as I said in the reply you chose to quote, 'missing' an element in skating can still earn big points- falls included. That has nothing to do with it being 'an artistic sport' so I'm not sure what the point is that you're going for, either.
gkelly
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Is the problem that skaters "are not staying in the sport"?
Are we talking only about skaters who already made it to elite levels, or about reasons why skaters who might have stayed until elite levels in earlier eras are retiring earlier now?
There are many reasons why skaters tended to quit/retire at certain points of their careers during, let's say, the figures era (which more or less coincided with the "amateurism" era), the 1991-2003 6.0/no figures era, and the IJS era. Some of those reasons have waxed and waned within those general time periods for other reasons as well. And of course individuals always have their own individual reasons.
To list a number of such reasons, some of which have been mentioned in the article or by other posters in this thread:
money
injuries (which probably increased over time with increased athletic demands)
other more compelling activities/interests (including social life, academics, other sports, other artistic endeavors, etc.)
stereotyping of male skaters
loss of opportunity or reward for the skills they were best at/enjoyed most
recognition that they couldn't keep up with the demands of the qualifying track leading to elite competition -- for reasons of expense, physical ability, time, etc.
dislike of type of skills and training focus demanded on the qualifying track
liking to skate but not liking to compete
etc.
One thing that I do think is happening in the US is that skaters who want to remain in the sport but who don't have what it takes financially, physically, or temperamentally to succeed in elite-track competition may choose at an earlier point in their careers to focus instead on other kinds of skating opportunities.
"Turning pro" in late teens/twenties for financial or artistic reasons is less common now than in earlier eras.
Social ice dancing is less of thing in the 21st century than in the 20th.
And competitive partnered ice dance has grown somewhat in recent years, but the numbers of skaters who start out in ice dance or leave singles skating to pursue ice dance aren't high enough to make a significant difference in the total number of singles competitors.
(And the number of skaters going into pairs is even lower and usually has been over the years.)
However, a larger percentage of younger skaters are choosing early on to focus on solo dance, synchronized skating, Theatre on Ice, Showcase events, or less intense competition streams such as Excel or collegiate/high school team competitions.
So the number of skaters in the competitive singles track might be significantly lower than at earlier times while the number of active participant skaters remains approximately the same.
Meanwhile the total number of singles skaters who are actually landing double axels and triples is probably higher than ever, as the expectations of what it takes to fit into the competitive stream continue to rise
But if international success now requires more than just triple jumps, maybe the question is how can the US develop skaters who can do those quads, triple axels, multiple triple-triple combos, level 4 spins and steps, and the kind of skating skills and presentation skills that the IJS currently rewards . . . and also appeal to American audiences.
But the answers about appealing to audiences are probably different depending on whether the target audience includes those who first became interested in the sport 20+ years ago vs. developing newer audiences.
Either way, international rules rewarding and shaping how the technical side of the sport develops can't be driven by what a subset of one country's audiences might prefer in terms of entertainment value. At best, that could be one consideration among many. Or several separate considerations, given the different potential audience segments that could be targeted within the US as well as elsewhere.
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Aussie Willy
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I had a person here who has had a life long involvement in the sport complain to me over dinner one night after a Theatre on Ice competition about skaters choosing to do that over being competitive skaters. He said that some of them would be perfectly capable of being competitive but making the choice to TOI.
Skaters have more option these days for what they choose to do. From my Sport Development perspective, yes we need the elite skaters. But I would much rather keep skaters being involved doing other things they enjoy. Clubs benefit by having more members. Skaters will still do tests as they want to progress their skills without the pressure of high level competition, doing it more for enjoyment and achievement goals. TOI is a growth area because skaters enjoy the team environment and creativity.
One of my focuses is keeping skaters in the sport after learn to skate so promoting those pathways is on my agenda for the next couple of years. But I need to bed in the other stuff first. The app that I have produced along with my app developer is part of that. With that I can use it to promote those different paths.
We have to look for the bigger picture, not just the elite, because that is what is going to keep the sport going and survive in the long term.
So much stuff to do. I am lucky that the Board of ISA are very supportive of what I do and have given the go ahead to many of the initiatives.
mackiecat
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Except if your last name was Harding
mackiecat
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Tell me how 6.0 marking for technical marks make sense. Think if this was judges in IJS. They were the Only team in whole competition doing 3T 3T sequence. Skate clean get 5.2 and 5.3 https://youtu.be/AYkB-i0Flik You do have to fast forward past the fluff stuff
they ended up 10th because they were a young team.
lets compare to Brasseur and Eisler- same country
jumps 2A 2F sequence/ 2A she does a single/ 2F she falls
throws first one two foot, 2nd one she falls
their twist is better but the catch isn’t great
their death spiral is better
they get 5.6, 5.7 5.8 with two falls get bronze medal
these results would be totally different in TES
they ended up 10th because they were a young team.
lets compare to Brasseur and Eisler- same country
jumps 2A 2F sequence/ 2A she does a single/ 2F she falls
throws first one two foot, 2nd one she falls
their twist is better but the catch isn’t great
their death spiral is better
they get 5.6, 5.7 5.8 with two falls get bronze medal
these results would be totally different in TES
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Coco
Rotating while Russian!
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Wow, that skate by Ball/Wirtz was wonderful! Thanks for sharing.
The IJS has debuted for 18 years. The rules are steadily evolving to encourage difficulty, excitement, balance and diversity. The rule change in 2018 that @tony cited in a separate thread about only allowing repeating one type of quad seems to encourage men to try harder quads instead of just sticking with repeating 4toes and 4sals over and over. They allowed women to do the 3axel in the short even when at the time Asada was the only top lady consistently trying and landing it [and I am guessing soon will allow quads]. They discouraged code-whoring with too many Biellmanns (Slutskaya, Asada), donuts (Arakawa), ugly upright COE spins (Slutskaya), 2axels (Kim), 2toes, extreme back loading (Zagitova) and 'Tanos (too many to list) to encourage variety. They changed one step sequence into a choreo sequence for the men's free skate and cut one jump pass for them to focus on presentation. They cut the spiral sequence for the ladies and one step sequence for the men in the short for the same reason. From a rules perspective, they really have done quite a bit to make the sport enjoyable from all angles. Next up I think they can impose more to encourage diversity in jumps - requiring both toe and edge jumps in the short program aside from the axel; giving a bonus to someone who lands all 6 takeoff types with +GOEs / deducting from someone who does not attempt all 6 takeoff types; rewarding CH when someone displays a balance in spin positions across 3 spins; mandating speed and flow being the most important bullet for step sequences, etc.
If the audience is still not enjoying what is happening or is confused by the judging, perhaps the system display and TV commentator can do a better job. I think the green dot / red dot is a start, but perhaps there can be some statistic in the final results shown on screen that sums up the impact of calls made to elements (e.g. Qs, <s, <<s) so that the commentator can explain - this lady appears to have skated a clean program, but 3 of her jumps got DG and 1 spin was invalidated. The Japanese did more analysis and used to show stats on specific jumps and aerial ice coverage of the skaters. I think these can be helpful, along with some average speed and amplitude stats.
Specifically for the USA, I agree that all these youtube bans are not helpful. If they did not want someone else to benefit from their copyrights, they really could have uploaded the clips themselves (and not geoblocked them).
Another thing that I see being a problem is that there are no longlasting stars anymore. This is quite global and is possibly caused by all the technical demands these days. But at least the top countries in ladies have a steady supply of juniors and up and comers ready to be at the top once the bodies / spirit of the top ladies give out. People loved Kwan and Cohen not only because they skated beautifully but also because they saw them grew and became stars. They were at or near the top long enough for others to enjoy their skating and fall in love with them. Can't say the same for all the other US Champions since Cohen. Wagner probably came closest. The others were neither competitive nor interesting enough for others to closely follow unless by real fans.
And lastly, not saying this is right or wrong, but it seems that the Russians, Japanese and Koreans have been more determined to do what it takes to go to the top, and their training culture is more disciplined / regimented. They train and do the hard elements from a young age because they can't stand out without them, even domestically. They have an entire season of domestic comps to compete in to qualify for Nationals and beyond. Even their first and second groups can be competitively internationally. The Americans have been more focused on balanced life and health, and their life after sports. The competitiveness drops quite substantially after the top group or so at US Nationals. And when someone finally gets a consistent 3/3 and a decent 3axel, and placed 2nd, she is left home in favour of someone who doesn't even have a clean 3/3 anymore. I don't know how encouraging this is.
If the audience is still not enjoying what is happening or is confused by the judging, perhaps the system display and TV commentator can do a better job. I think the green dot / red dot is a start, but perhaps there can be some statistic in the final results shown on screen that sums up the impact of calls made to elements (e.g. Qs, <s, <<s) so that the commentator can explain - this lady appears to have skated a clean program, but 3 of her jumps got DG and 1 spin was invalidated. The Japanese did more analysis and used to show stats on specific jumps and aerial ice coverage of the skaters. I think these can be helpful, along with some average speed and amplitude stats.
Specifically for the USA, I agree that all these youtube bans are not helpful. If they did not want someone else to benefit from their copyrights, they really could have uploaded the clips themselves (and not geoblocked them).
Another thing that I see being a problem is that there are no longlasting stars anymore. This is quite global and is possibly caused by all the technical demands these days. But at least the top countries in ladies have a steady supply of juniors and up and comers ready to be at the top once the bodies / spirit of the top ladies give out. People loved Kwan and Cohen not only because they skated beautifully but also because they saw them grew and became stars. They were at or near the top long enough for others to enjoy their skating and fall in love with them. Can't say the same for all the other US Champions since Cohen. Wagner probably came closest. The others were neither competitive nor interesting enough for others to closely follow unless by real fans.
And lastly, not saying this is right or wrong, but it seems that the Russians, Japanese and Koreans have been more determined to do what it takes to go to the top, and their training culture is more disciplined / regimented. They train and do the hard elements from a young age because they can't stand out without them, even domestically. They have an entire season of domestic comps to compete in to qualify for Nationals and beyond. Even their first and second groups can be competitively internationally. The Americans have been more focused on balanced life and health, and their life after sports. The competitiveness drops quite substantially after the top group or so at US Nationals. And when someone finally gets a consistent 3/3 and a decent 3axel, and placed 2nd, she is left home in favour of someone who doesn't even have a clean 3/3 anymore. I don't know how encouraging this is.
Brenda_Bottems
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What is wrong with the new scoring system,I am asked?
- Numbers are meaningless. Is 72 a good score? 141? 55? There is no reference point.
- We used to climax in unison when '6.0' was announced. The new scores lack intrigue and excitement.
- A degree in mathematics is required to make heads or tails of the result
- An unhealthy obsession with identifying fractional jump rotations
- Components should only be found underneath the hood of my BMW,not in figure skating.
- Artistic impression and presentation is no longer part of the scoring criteria
- Popular and vulgar vocal music choices take advantage of said system
- Corruption by the former Soviet nations,bloc judging
- The last two Ladies Olympic Champions have been controversial. Why shall we have faith in this system with its many peculiarities? Faith is not a fact.
- Last but certainly not least: figure skating used to be equal parts ART and SPORT. The elephant in the room is that figure skating is now far uglier to watch and much less pleasurable for the general public. Our sport should be 50% art and 50% sport. Currently this ratio sits at 15% art and 85% sport.
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Thanks BB. I have some thoughts on your points (bolded above).
Lemonade20
If I agreed with you, we’d both be wrong.
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Frau Muller
From Puerto Rico…With Love! Not LatinX!
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And that’s why Paul Wylie must return as “The Professor”...at his desk and “blackboard” screen!
Tara-Johnny may be cute entertainment but we need a “professor” with gravitas to explain the scoring system.
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Frau Muller
From Puerto Rico…With Love! Not LatinX!
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And THANK GOODNESS for that. Remember the ladies with minimal flexibility struggling to hike legs into Biellman positions...slowly gliding by judges, attempting smiles?
ninjapirate
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When people are not forced to work on spirals in some capacity then we don't get good spirals at all. And a good spiral requires good gliding speed and poise which are good to work.
Colonel Green
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No, you get spirals from people who are good at them or want to do them.
ninjapirate
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No, you only get good spirals from people who base their identity off of role modeling older skaters.
alchemy void
Post-its for the win.
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..
olympic
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I still think in most cases that the FW requirement also kills the momentum of the program for many (but not all) skaters. But, I'm not necessarily against including it. Maybe it can be shortened or something ....
Theatregirl1122
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Everything you said!
Wow. Way to shine a light on yourself, I suppose.
mad that someone else is being facetious and condescending?Although humorous, BB brings up plenty of points that probably relate to a lot of peoples’ mindsets, most notably the (always-changing) scrutiny of analyzing jump rotations.
Theatregirl1122
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Although humorous, BB brings up plenty of points that probably relate to a lot of peoples’ mindsets, most notably the (always-changing) scrutiny of analyzing jump rotations.
Look, we all know that you’re okay with homophobic jokes for no explainable reason, but that doesn’t mean the rest of us have to be.
And you are running around the board being nasty to everyone in every thread. If you want to keep commenting on everything I say, I guess that’s something you can do with your free time, but it seems like a pretty bad use of it.
Don't tell me what I'm okay or not with. If you were insulted by a homophobic joke (which, as I see the post has none of the type, and was last edited at 8AM, way before you chimed in), you sure went all the way around it. Please show me where you showed one ounce of concern in this thread over a gay joke as opposed to being your typical delightful self.
I will tell you that I'm not okay with you blasting into threads, being condescending and sarcastic as hell, and choosing to complain everywhere else on the board about how you have absolutely zero free time and everything is the end of the world and everyone is attacking you for simply replying and giving back a little bit of said attitude that you've given. Even when you're innocently corrected, you get super sarcastic for zero reason. If you want to do that in the 'free time' you don't have, I think you should take your own advice. Just my opinion, of course.
Now, I'd love to carry on discussing BB's points or move on to something that won't result in more condescension.
No lol.
I would argue that it does have something to do with being an artistic sport. In football, it doesn't matter if the throw is ugly and/or the catch is ugly -- all that matters is that if the ball is caught in the endzone, you get 6 points. If football was scored like skating, the team wouldn't get the full points if the throw/catch were ugly, because we also want the beauty that comes from correct execution of the elements.
It wouldn't be hard for a commentator to throw up an explanation of the correct way to do a jump, and then explain why marks are given/taken away based on how far the skater has come to achieving it, imo.
I don't think that everyone, hardcore skating fans or not, understands why a complete wipeout on a 4T still earns half the points that it starts at-- and it used to be a little more than that before the +/-5 change. It would take a lot of explaining to someone to try to resonate why a clean 3T may be less than the wipeout on the 4T, or why a clean jump in general is getting less points than any completely failed jump.
The poster was making a facetious comment trying to compare the way football and skating worked in terms of adding up points to determine a winner. It's simply not the same practice with all the intricacies involved.
I def grew up with the 6.0 as a little kid watching it with my dad. As a kid of course it was very innocent .. someone won and someone lost.
i think some people forget though or ignore is that there are definitely people that just tune in only for Olympics and some for worlds and Olympics. They are not a hard core fan. The 6.0 .. or less .. was just kinda easier to understand at some level.
Personally for me the damage was done over a long period of time with the cheating/politics in skating. The head of ISU ignoring it etc.
i think the new system is great for ice dancing which long needed an overhaul. ... I don’t think it has been great for pairs .. maybe for singles too. I would def say pairs though.
MacMadame
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This would be helpful in so many ways. Many people like to experience sports like this. They want all the technical details. It makes it feel more like a "real" sport too. And, if all you want to do is listen to the music and enjoy the artistry, you can do that too. Just don't look at the box!
I feel like figure skating commentary in the US is still in the 1980s in terms of technology and overall level of discourse.
I'm okay with this. Well, not your last sentence. But I think it's fine for US skaters to want to have a life and if that means we aren't as competitive on an international level, so be it.
People keep asserting that but I don't see any evidence to support it. If you are a casual fan who only turns in for Worlds and the Olympics, you aren't paying that much attention to the scoring system anyway. I follow many sports at the Olympics only and I get into trying to guess the scores or where they will place without understanding the system one iota. It's still fun especially if the commentators help you. And, again, IJS is much more like how sports in general work with adding up points vs. 6.0 which was actually pretty crazy in terms of trying to explain and understand.
Instead of pretending that all casual fans agree with us (whether that's preferring 6.0 or preferring IJS), I am hoping that the ISU and the NGB actually do some research to find out what casual fans really think and what it would take to bring them more into the sport. I'm guessing what they will find is that the scoring system is irrelevant. It's more important that people have personalities they want to follow (stars) as long as the scoring appears basically fair.
That is only my opinion but certainly there were casual fans in my family.. I was more into it then them, Olympics always draws viewers ... I am a casual viewer of a lot of different sports with the winter olympics (not curling
) that I would normally not watch throughout a season.
Lemonade20
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You're coming at me for agreeing with someone? Really?
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