Figure skating in the United States is on thin ice

Jay42

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3,186
(3) They aren't putting videos on TikTok.
This would be huge for figure skating visibility. Amber Glenn and Elladj Baldé do really well on TikTok and TikTok's algorithm is highly unpredictable. I'm not sure how well On Ice Perspectives does on there because he posts the same stuff on Instagram and TikTok and I already follow him on Instagram. But I've seen Amber and Elladj both get over a million views twice in a week and that's not normal on TikTok outside of the really big creators.
 

ninjapirate

Active Member
Messages
206
Why is it that the US was never, ever able to get a reality skating program like Dancing on Ice, Battle of the Blades, or Ice Age ongoing? There were two separate attempts that lasted only one season. There are other, smaller countries that was able to cobble together a few seasons of their kind of show like in Finland and Germany IIRC.

The above points to there being a problem with either extreme cultural fragmentation or a lack of creativity. The US doesn't seem to have anyone like Deac, Bezic, or Averbukh.
 

Orm Irian

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1,028
Amber Glenn and Elladj Baldé do really well on TikTok and TikTok's algorithm is highly unpredictable. I'm not sure how well On Ice Perspectives does on there because he posts the same stuff on Instagram and TikTok and I already follow him on Instagram. But I've seen Amber and Elladj both get over a million views twice in a week and that's not normal on TikTok outside of the really big creators.
Even a less well-known skater like Sondre Oddvall Boe can rake in a substantial number of views on TikTok - his open-air skating videos have been doing really well there. I don't do TikTok myself even just to watch, but it does seem to be a platform that's good for skaters to use.

I found the article interesting, very focused on women's skating even though the US has been very prominent in ice dance for so long but also a good unpacking of some of the structural issues that inhibit skating from having wider takeup in the US and presumably also Canada. But in the end it's all a bit eh to me. Fine, it's the author's sport, it's a sport we on these boards enjoy watching, so we don't want it to die out, but really...so what if it does? There are maybe three countries in the world right now where it isn't a very niche sport already, even at the elite level. So maybe it's going to get a bit nichier in the US than it already is. It happens. Whatever.
 

misskarne

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20,441
I find it hilarious that she notes the USFS are dinosaurs who take forever to adjust...and then proceeds to really prove the point by harping the "IJS ruined American skating" line. Like, honey, you're part of the problem.

When you have commentators still calling it the "new scoring system" now, when some of the stars of modern skating weren't even born yet when it was introduced, therein lies a symptom of your problem.

This is a very ladies-centric article - and that also is a problem, in that USFS seems to have this attitude that if the ladies aren't doing well it's all screwed. They also have a dreadful way of hyperfixating on one skater to the detriment of all others - I'm sure we all remember watching US Nationals a couple of years ago and getting sick of Nathan Chen's name being uttered every two seconds regardless of who was skating. And I'm still quite convinced that that didn't help Chen's mindset ahead of the Olympics. And of course, let's not forget what that fixation did to Gracie Gold.

The point about USFS seeming allergic to the internet is a good one, though. Skating is only viewable (legally) on subscription television in the US, and then you have blunders like the fact they did not seem to bother with a legal international stream the one year it was the literal only skating event to watch. Jason's Sinnerman disappears off Youtube faster than anything. Jimmy Ma, literally just months after his viral Turn Down For What, is told his new Weeknd program is "too modern" and to go back to Rachmaninoff.
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
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Why is it that the US was never, ever able to get a reality skating program like Dancing on Ice, Battle of the Blades, or Ice Age ongoing? There were two separate attempts that lasted only one season. There are other, smaller countries that was able to cobble together a few seasons of their kind of show like in Finland and Germany IIRC.

The above points to there being a problem with either extreme cultural fragmentation or a lack of creativity. The US doesn't seem to have anyone like Deac, Bezic, or Averbukh.

That's a really good question. My guess is that the US shows were expensive to stage (ice time, training, rehearsal, etc.); there weren't any participating skaters as well known as, say, Torvill and Dean are in the UK; the "celebrities" were B-list at best. All of that didn't really translate into ratings, and the producers probably decided the investment wasn't worth the return.
 

caseyedwards

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16,078
My personal complaint was IJS ruined the ability to have a program that had room to breathe! That every single second is programmed now with a technical element. So there is no time to establish any real personality! But then you have Russia where this doesn’t seem to be considered an issue at all! The Russian ladies system has made a total virtue out of every second being vital. Those ladies don’t ever stop to breathe and still carved out unique identities.

Then you also have jason brown. He’s never done a quad his whole life and he is solidly second in American men’s skating. He puts a lie to the whole idea quads are necessary! Well in American mens. The article is so focused on ladies that it’s not even mentioned brown is successful
 

antmanb

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10,534
Why is it that the US was never, ever able to get a reality skating program like Dancing on Ice, Battle of the Blades, or Ice Age ongoing? There were two separate attempts that lasted only one season. There are other, smaller countries that was able to cobble together a few seasons of their kind of show like in Finland and Germany IIRC.
But it's not like Dancing on Ice in the UK results in greater interest in actual skating. People will shell out a lot of money to see Z list celebrities falling around on the ice on the tour the programme does after the TV show but they won't spend a tenth of that cost to go and see actual elite level skaters at nationals. Same with Strictly Come Dancing - people pay tons to watch the tour of that after the show but it doesn't result in an increase in popularity of competitive ballroom.

The only thing that gets a boost in the UK from Dancing on Ice is sign up to adult learn to skate classes and when people realise how hard it actually is the numbers drop off fairly drastically after the first and second blocks of classes.

I'm a casual fan of gymnastics and diving. I'm the viewer that will watch at the Olympics and if i happen to come across it channel surfing. I enjoy it in that moment without caring much about anything beyond the explanations given by the commentators. Gymnastics has undergone the same change in judging that skating has and yet I couldn't care less about the change in judging because it never actually mattered to me. A final total score that is the highest is very clear who the winner is. The ordinal system in skating was not at all and was something that you had to really read into to understand and figure out and half the time when the ordinals were all over the place it was more a case of oh ok, than actually getting it. By the time i'd invested the time and energy to work it out myself 2002 happened.

Figure skating is a niche sport, it was always a niche sport. It had a massive boost in the late 70s and early 80s in the UK because we had actual champions then it died down. It had a massive boost in North America after the whack and then it died down. While streaming of competitions makes it more accessible it also drives it to be more niche because casual viewers won't happen to stumble upon it on their normal tv channels they would have to search it out and stream it.

The other issue that will always come into play is that it is a judged sport and as long as fans scream judging wuzrobbed and narratives in mainstream films like I, tonya are all about how she was never going to please the judges anyway, a large number of people will be put off putting their kids into sports that rely on judges because it's "not a real sport" and how can you work towards being the best when the "best" is what the judges subjectively say is the best.

People have been writing articles about the end of the sport since figures were eliminated and the sport is still here and the fans are still here arguing about the results 🤷
 

Frau Muller

Proud Puerto Rican-Russkaya!
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The article is really female skater focused. She leaves readers with the impression that U.S. Skaters don’t podium anymore. .....
Right. That was my point earlier... The writer is obviously thinking only about Ladies because Russia (USSR before 1991) hasn’t suddenly come to the forefront of figure skating.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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65,746
Agree. If the US were winning all the time, there would be no criticisms about IJS from the US.
Not just winning, having a female OGM. Let's face it, men, dance and pairs don't drive skating popularity in the US. It's not just the USFS driving that meme, it's the popularity of the sport. Same as gymnastics--it's the girls most people watch, not the men. It's just what's popular with the public. The reverse is true in other sports---women's basketball anybody?

We don't have any skaters that are at the level of the Russians or top Japanese. It's the little girls wanting to win medals that drive people to invest in skating. And, the fact is, skating is extremely expensive and there is little return on the investment. Ice rinks are not found in a large part of the country---gymnastics are everywhere--so skating beyond recreational is just not going to be accessible to a lot of people. People know I'm a figure skating fan---some may catch skating on the NBC weekends, none would pay to watch it, they'll watch the Olympics--they don't care about men, pairs or dance medals. And, almost everybody I know is US centric. They don't care about skaters from other countries.

Frankly, I'm fine with skating's availability. I see everything I want to see and the sport is progressing.
 
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Frau Muller

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Not just winning, having a female OGM. Let's face it, men, dance and pairs don't drive skating popularity in the US. We don't have any skaters that are at the level of the Russians or top Japanese. It's the little girls wanting to win medals that drive people to invest in skating.
Just like ballet. In the US, it’s the image of the pwetty ballerini in tutu and pointe shoes that sells tickets...marketing brochures, company web sites, etc. (in normal, non-***** times).
The recent great male ballet stars known to the general public in middle America, outside the liberal coastal cities - Nureyev and Baryshnikov - were one-offs.
 
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ninjapirate

Active Member
Messages
206
But it's not like Dancing on Ice in the UK results in greater interest in actual skating. People will shell out a lot of money to see Z list celebrities falling around on the ice on the tour the programme does after the TV show but they won't spend a tenth of that cost to go and see actual elite level skaters at nationals. Same with Strictly Come Dancing - people pay tons to watch the tour of that after the show but it doesn't result in an increase in popularity of competitive ballroom.
True, but it still says a lot that the US was never able to get a similar show off no matter what effect it would have had on the popularity of the regular figure skating season.
 

Lemonade20

Former Kurtholic
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1,083
This has been a very interesting thread to follow. I agree with the statement that figure skating is a very niche sport. The problem today is we don't have the huge personalities in skating that we did before. Skaters are getting younger and the fan base is getting older. It's hard for me to feel connected to any of today's skaters (except Jason Brown, quad or not).

Certain skaters can turn this into a career or go on to do amazing things like Yamaguchi. Others who had an ordinary amateur career went on to be even better and more well-known like Elladj. Unfortunately most of them won't even last that long. It takes a toll on their bodies and mind. The Russians are turning up the pressure in ladies skating and it's crazy to be talking about pre-teens and treating them like senior citizens once they pass 17.

The skating shows (ie SOI) used to be amazing with a line up of international skaters, but they have shrunk so much it's not a surprise it's going out the door. You need a huge personality to anchor the show. People also get bored of the same formula in those skating shows and honestly it's more fun for them than us.

Cable used to dominate how people watch the events, but with all the different platforms we have now, it's literally a social media jungle. There's no way the US can keep up, so it's up to us to figure it out and it is a lot of work.

I think a little of that applies to elite skating too. The scoring system is still strange to me and doesn't quite work. It's all about rewarding technical content, not so much performance. It feels like it could be improved, but that's another subject.
 

mtnskater

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My main objection to the IJS system is how cookie cutter skating programs have become. Though I am still a big skating fan I rarely find a program that moves me anymore. I feel like IJS has sterilized the sport to a degree. There used to be many many memorable skates under 6.0. Frankly I’m bored by every female skater doing a Bielmann spin. It used to be a rare and beautiful thing to see. Now it’s ho hum. Skaters are frantically packing in elements and there is little room to appreciate the beautiful glide of holding an edge or position. I just watched the entirety of Russian Junior Nationals and there was so much of the same elements in all of the disciplines. For example, there were so many “Rippon” style jumps that when we finally saw a couple of non-Rippon jumps my husband and I were thrilled to see them. If I could change one thing it would be to allow for more individuality, creativity and artistry and less skate by the numbers. And as someone mentioned above, room to breathe and take in a moment. I have no idea how to do that in a points system. I also think gymnastics suffers from the same problem at the elite level. Bring the artistry and individuality back :soapbox::mitchell:
 

attyfan

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I also think that one factor in the decline of people signing their daughters up for skating that girls have so many more choices about sports than they used to have. So, there is really no reason why a parent should allow their child to go in for skating. It is not significantly safer (from injury or abuse) than other sports; but it is significantly more expensive.
 

sk9tingfan

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3,444
I also think that one factor in the decline of people signing their daughters up for skating that girls have so many more choices about sports than they used to have. So, there is really no reason why a parent should allow their child to go in for skating. It is not significantly safer (from injury or abuse) than other sports; but it is significantly more expensive.
Title 9
 

attyfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
8,685
Title 9 certainly provides a motive to get daughters into sports that colleges like. I've seen little girls in soccer practice at our local park -- which would not have occurred 30 years ago -- and this is completely independent from whether or not any of them will be able to use their soccer to benefit from Title 9
 

once_upon

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17,880
Why is it that the US was never, ever able to get a reality skating program like Dancing on Ice, Battle of the Blades, or Ice Age ongoing? There were two separate attempts that lasted only one season. There are other, smaller countries that was able to cobble together a few seasons of their kind of show like in Finland and Germany IIRC.

The above points to there being a problem with either extreme cultural fragmentation or a lack of creativity. The US doesn't seem to have anyone like Deac, Bezic, or Averbukh.
Live sports? Truly, I would rather watch American football, competition skating/gymnastics, college basketball, college football even if I know the scores or outcome of the games, than contrived reality shows.

My cable sports subscription has close to 25 - 30 different sports channels. Separate college leagues (Big 10, ACC, etc), NFL, NHL, MBL, NBA, MLS, Fox Sports - I think at least 2, NBC, CBS, ESPN- at least 3, Olympic Channel, and Peacock.

I watched the one season of Skating with the Stars and just like DWTS, American Idol, SYTYCD, etc there was too much fake drama, not enough on real techniques and training.

The figure skating audience in the US (besides us die hard fans) know a Tara, Michelle,Sasha, Dick Button, Peggy Fleming, Scott Hamilton or Brian Botanio - I doubt they could name anyone else.

And I think the Skating with the Stars fell into the old skaters with D "stars". In fact the season i watched had Kristy S who is married to Lloyd E, one of the Housewives star - Bethany somebody i think. Can't remember who else.
 

tony

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8,893
And I think the Skating with the Stars fell into the old skaters with D "stars". In fact the season i watched had Kristy S who is married to Lloyd E, one of the Housewives star - Bethany somebody i think. Can't remember who else.
You're combining two different instances of attempted shows. Skating with the Stars (branched off of Dancing) happened in the fall after Vancouver 2010. Johnny was a judge there and obviously did not like Bethenny Frankel. Her partner, Ethan Burgess, looked like he was ready to beat down on Johnny at any given moment for all of his negativity.

Skating With Celebrities was some 4 years earlier, before Torino IIRC, and that's the one that had Lloyd.

There was also that Thin Ice show directly after Vancouver which partnered (a bunch of very good) skaters with each other.
 

Judy

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2,362
This has been a very interesting thread to follow. I agree with the statement that figure skating is a very niche sport. The problem today is we don't have the huge personalities in skating that we did before. Skaters are getting younger and the fan base is getting older. It's hard for me to feel connected to any of today's skaters (except Jason Brown, quad or not).

Certain skaters can turn this into a career or go on to do amazing things like Yamaguchi. Others who had an ordinary amateur career went on to be even better and more well-known like Elladj. Unfortunately most of them won't even last that long. It takes a toll on their bodies and mind. The Russians are turning up the pressure in ladies skating and it's crazy to be talking about pre-teens and treating them like senior citizens once they pass 17.

The skating shows (ie SOI) used to be amazing with a line up of international skaters, but they have shrunk so much it's not a surprise it's going out the door. You need a huge personality to anchor the show. People also get bored of the same formula in those skating shows and honestly it's more fun for them than us.

Cable used to dominate how people watch the events, but with all the different platforms we have now, it's literally a social media jungle. There's no way the US can keep up, so it's up to us to figure it out and it is a lot of work.

I think a little of that applies to elite skating too. The scoring system is still strange to me and doesn't quite work. It's all about rewarding technical content, not so much performance. It feels like it could be improved, but that's another subject.
I agree about cable/satellite etc tv. I refuse to pay anymore the high cost in Canada. I remember one year when I did have it and struggling to find the coverage because it was split between two networks that were owned by the same company. It just used to be so much easier and cheaper to watch.

The last last Olympics in 2018 I watched for free on the app on my ipad.
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
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39,311
People have been writing articles about the end of the sport since figures were eliminated and the sport is still here and the fans are still here arguing about the results 🤷
They've been doing it longer than that, I'm pretty sure. ;)

Let's face it, men, dance and pairs don't drive skating popularity in the US.
But there is nothing set in stone about that.

My main objection to the IJS system is how cookie cutter skating programs have become.
They have always been cookie-cutter. As someone who used to mark down the elements as I watched live comps, that was very clear to me.
 

Judy

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2,362
And one big thing I left out is that Russia makes all of their competitions accessible to the world. The Ted Barton partnership has worked wonders, gets all skating fans familiar with even their B teams, and they give their skaters plenty of chances to compete, even in non-CV times. I'd venture to say serious American skating fans probably know more about the Russian competitors than they do their own country competitors, and it's not only because the Russians are on top of the sport.

The US seems more concerned with signing expensive deals for TV rights that make the location ever-changing, the subscription service always rotating, and a lot of their stuff blocked from Youtube. So what does my generation and younger resort to if they aren't hardcore? Brief clips on things like Instagram and TikTok that create viral moments but most likely don't make anyone go out of the way to search out more skating in terms of 4-hour competitions.

But I still think the skating world as a whole is not suffering. So many more countries are involved than there were 25 years ago, and it can become even bigger if the ISU and USFS especially would get some younger people in higher-up positions and people who actually can run decent social media-- this part to me is HUGE. This should've been the time to make a lot of big experimental changes for post-2022, but we are going to certainly see more of the same.
Social media is huge and it can be used in so many exciting ways.

I find Skate Canada dull with their social media.
 

Prancer

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A final total score that is the highest is very clear who the winner is. The ordinal system in skating was not at all and was something that you had to really read into to understand and figure out and half the time when the ordinals were all over the place it was more a case of oh ok, than actually getting it.
I love Dick Button, but this quote in the article “The old six-point system was understandable and one could hear folks in a bar cheer and argue about whether someone should have had a 5.7 or 5.8,” absolutely shows that people didn't understand the 6.0 system. It equates ordinals with scores--which is what people did. I well remember trying to explain to people that that one judge giving a skater a 5.7 didn't mean that the judge was giving a skater a lower score than a judge who gave a skater a 5.8. This makes absolutely no sense intuitively and casual fans aren't drawn in by scoring systems that requires study.

I've watched a lot of crappy skating over the years, but even I drew the line at the Skating with the Stars type shows. The skating wasn't good and the drama was :rolleyes:.

If you came to skating during the 90s, I am sure it does seem like skating has faded terribly in popularity. But to geezers like me who came to skating in, say, the 70s, when "watching skating" meant seeing a few programs on Wide World of Sports on Saturday afternoons sometimes weeks after a competition took place, skating now looks relatively popular.
 

tony

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8,893
I love Dick Button, but this quote in the article “The old six-point system was understandable and one could hear folks in a bar cheer and argue about whether someone should have had a 5.7 or 5.8,” absolutely shows that people didn't understand the 6.0 system. It equates ordinals with scores--which is what people did. I well remember trying to explain to people that that one judge giving a skater a 5.7 didn't mean that the judge was giving a skater a lower score than a judge who gave a skater a 5.8. This makes absolutely no sense intuitively and casual fans aren't drawn in by scoring system that requires study.

If you came to skating during the 90s, I am sure it does seem like skating has faded terribly in popularity. But to geezers like me who came to skating in, say, the 70s, when "watching skating" meant seeing a few programs on Wide World of Sports on Saturday afternoons sometimes weeks after a competition took place, skating now looks relatively popular.
And here's the huge thing about 6.0 that people forget: during those days, we almost always (in the US and Canada at least) saw only the top skaters. We didn't see how low the scores typically could go. I remember that one Ultimate Four where Kurt forgot the last 30 seconds of his short program and just went in circles trying to remember what he had done, and he had scores down to a 2.5 or 2.9 or something technically, which I thought was :eek: simply because I had really never seen a program scored that low, or if there was an off-chance that I did, those scores were from someone much less known than Kurt Browning.

(ETA- completely random side note but I remember Fedor Andreev blowing all three jumping passes at 2001 Skate America, ESPN still deciding to show him and constantly remind us that he was an A&F model, and he got scores down to 2.5 or so, too, and I remember people talking about that like it was a surprise as well. I suppose it would've been the first instance of fans that joined around the time of Nagano seeing scores that bad.

When you're only seeing the top set of skaters, the marks make more sense because the judges are likely comparing those skaters to one-another. And it's not like the judges didn't get creative with their second marks, anyways, especially in short programs. That way, they were still capable of sliding a favorite or top contender exactly where they wanted them to be by simply saying 'but their presentation was stronger'.

As far as the last point- this is another thing that I don't understand when people complain about the lack of skating. I came into watching skating in 1993 and recorded everything in sight from about 1998 until I left for college in 2004. Yes, ABC and ESPN were getting to the point of showing 6.5 hours of Grand Prix events a week. But besides those, Nationals, 4CC, Euros (which those two were just the final groups of the LPs, anyways), and Worlds, we didn't see anything else. And the majority of the stuff was on tape delay anyways. Now we see every skater from every competition, even obscure National Championships via YouTube. Popularity surely went down in the US and I'm sure it took a huge hit in Canada following their entire top team retiring after 2018, but it's thriving in other places and many countries now at least have the chance to see skating to begin with. I don't even think Europeans typically saw anything besides Euros or Worlds and the occasional Grand Prix until about 2002 or 2003 when streaming options/video sharing became a thing.
 

sk8nlizard

Well-Known Member
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657
They've been doing it longer than that, I'm pretty sure. ;)


But there is nothing set in stone about that.

I actually just looked at NBC Sports YouTube page for US Nationals and believe it or not, K/F free skate was the most viewed (by a lot) From US Nationals (that NBC Sports posted). I thought for sure it would be Nathan! Maybe US fans are starting to look at things besides Ladies?!?!
 

Judy

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2,362
I actually just looked at NBC Sports YouTube page for US Nationals and believe it or not, K/F free skate was the most viewed (by a lot) From US Nationals (that NBC Sports posted). I thought for sure it would be Nathan! Maybe US fans are starting to look at things besides Ladies?!?!
If I were Skate Canada, I would be all over the opportunity to piggyback on the social media talents of the young, hip, and charming, Roman Sadovsky! Just saying.
Yup I was thinking that too.
 

Judy

Well-Known Member
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2,362
And here's the huge thing about 6.0 that people forget: during those days, we almost always (in the US and Canada at least) saw only the top skaters. We didn't see how low the scores typically could go. I remember that one Ultimate Four where Kurt forgot the last 30 seconds of his short program and just went in circles trying to remember what he had done, and he had scores down to a 2.5 or 2.9 or something technically, which I thought was :eek: simply because I had really never seen a program scored that low, or if there was an off-chance that I did, those scores were from someone much less known than Kurt Browning.

(ETA- completely random side note but I remember Fedor Andreev blowing all three jumping passes at 2001 Skate America, ESPN still deciding to show him and constantly remind us that he was an A&F model, and he got scores down to 2.5 or so, too, and I remember people talking about that like it was a surprise as well. I suppose it would've been the first instance of fans that joined around the time of Nagano seeing scores that bad.

When you're only seeing the top set of skaters, the marks make more sense because the judges are likely comparing those skaters to one-another. And it's not like the judges didn't get creative with their second marks, anyways, especially in short programs. That way, they were still capable of sliding a favorite or top contender exactly where they wanted them to be by simply saying 'but their presentation was stronger'.

As far as the last point- this is another thing that I don't understand when people complain about the lack of skating. I came into watching skating in 1993 and recorded everything in sight from about 1998 until I left for college in 2004. Yes, ABC and ESPN were getting to the point of showing 6.5 hours of Grand Prix events a week. But besides those, Nationals, 4CC, Euros (which those two were just the final groups of the LPs, anyways), and Worlds, we didn't see anything else. And the majority of the stuff was on tape delay anyways. Now we see every skater from every competition, even obscure National Championships via YouTube. Popularity surely went down in the US and I'm sure it took a huge hit in Canada following their entire top team retiring after 2018, but it's thriving in other places and many countries now at least have the chance to see skating to begin with. I don't even think Europeans typically saw anything besides Euros or Worlds and the occasional Grand Prix until about 2002 or 2003 when streaming options/video sharing became a thing.
I would love to see a link of Kurt Browning doing that 😂😂. Likely not available from back then.
 

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