College administration bribery scandal

Rob

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I have not read the entire thread so apologies if this has been answered. The mother who is suing because her son was rejected said he had a 4.2 average. I thought 4.0 was the top number. Can someone explain?
In addition to the honors and AP uptick, some school score an A as a 4.0 and A+ as a 4.33. So the grading scale is really a 4.33 grading scale, and not a 4.0 grading scale.

My high school was messed up because the grades were no pass (<70%), pass (70-95%), and honors (96% and above). Try explaining to a college that your GPA was 4.0 or 4.33 because you got all "honors." And we had no AP or Honors classes because we had between 3 and 15 people in each grade. The whole grade, not just the class. My high school graduating class had 9 people in it.
 
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BaileyCatts

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..... because Friend and her oldest son both went to a university the daughter likes quite a bit and thinks would be a good place for her--Arizona State.

Friend doesn't keep up with the news, so she had no idea why I found that so hilarious.
I don't either ... why is that hilarious? :shuffle:
 

Prancer

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Could you link to these validity studies that show grades are a stronger predictor? Grades are so variable across the country, I'd love to know how the researcher set up that study.

Especially since you are claiming grades are a -better- predictor.
Here are some with full-text of the studies.

How well does high school grade point average predict college performance by student urbanicity and timing of college entry? https://ies.ed.gov/ncee/edlabs/regions/northwest/pdf/REL_2017250.pdf

High school grades are a better predictor of college success than SAT, ACT, study says
https://edsource.org/2014/high-school-grades-are-a-better-predictor-of-college-success-than-sat-act-study-says/58033 Full text linked on page.

What grades and achievement tests measure
http://ftp.iza.org/dp10356.pdf

What matters most for college completion? Academic preparation is a key predictor of success
http://www.aei.org/publication/what-matters-most-for-college-completion-academic-preparation-is-a-key-predictor-of-success/

There is also this, which looks at college success for students who attend test-optional colleges, but it doesn't appear to be online any more, although it was not too long ago: Hiss, William and Valerie Frankel. "Defining Promise: Optional Standardized Testing Policies in American College and University Admissions." Maybe you can access it in a database? if not, here's an article about it, at least: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/02/21/a-telling-study-about-act-sat-scores/

Except that statistics aren't predicative to the individual so you can't really say that IMO. You can say that it increases your odds but odds are not a guarantee.
Well, you can't say it increases your odds, either, as that would be using statistics to predict individual success.

So let's say that as a group, graduates of top universities have much better statistical outcomes in certain career fields. Which is not a guarantee, either, but what is?

I don't either ... why is that hilarious? :shuffle:
Because Arizona State is the school that Lori Loughlin's husband considered a fate worse than death for his daughter.
 

aftershocks

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It is rather shocking (albeit unsurprising) to see some wealthy people (who did not grow up wealthy) losing all sense of proportion, perspective and morality. What an absolute waste of money that could have gone to better uses. Why is it so crucial to get into a top college, when college is truthfully NOT the answer or the necessity for everyone?

As it has turned out from what we are seeing on social media, Lori Loughlin's daughter (Olivia Jade) who had the Youtube channel and all of the other endorsements (for make-up line hook-ups), did not enjoy going to college. It was her parents' wish for their daughers because they missed out themselves and actually aspired to attend college themselves. A big lesson here is to allow your children to find their own way, and stop trying to live through them. But I guess common sense is in short supply when you have lost all perspective of what life is about in the first place. And now Olivia Jade and Isabella will have unforseen struggles to surmount for the rest of their lives.

The whole making up of an athletic ability that one does not actually possess is so ludicrous. Wouldn't it have been obvious to everyone at the University when Loughlin's daughters did not once take part in the athletic endeavor for which they were admitted?! And actively engaging in cheating on the SATs is so dumbfounding. It's particularly incredulous that an accomplished and high profile actor would sink to stooping to that level of utter stupidity! Felicity Huffman has such gorgeous daughters with William H Macy. They could have pursued other career avenues, not involving higher education if they weren't particularly gifted academically, or couldn't be bothered to apply themselves academically. I don't get that level of gnarly thinking that is a big time LOSE LOSE in the long run, and in the short run too!

The fact that Huffman thought about cheating again for her younger daughter, but ultimately didn't might be an indication she was beginning to have second thoughts about that level of deceit. Or not! :drama:
 

Michalle

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1,589
It sounds like the Huffman/Macy second daughter is academically inclined, I wonder if she was doing well enough on practice tests that it just didn't seem necessary? I'm really curious about this, which is sort of goofy, like why do I care? It's so strange how these things catch our attention.
 

aftershocks

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^^ Well yes, the fact that 'household names,' high-profile celebrities are involved is the trigger for increased interest in our 'celeb-lifestyle' fascination culture.

In fact, many of the other names involved in the scandal, as listed in the NYTimes, are highly accomplished professionals in business and finance industries, some of them self-employed:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/12/us/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-massimo-giannulli.html

I was watching a Morning Joe episode about this scandal the other day. It was interesting that one of the Morning Joe participants, Steve Rattner (a former treasury department official) was called out as someone who personally knows one of the accused, William (Bill) McGlashan, Jr., a senior executive at a big private equity firm (well, he may no longer be employed there at this point). In any case, Rattner tried unsurprisingly to quickly minimize his connection to McGlashan, as well as to avoid discussing anything about what McGlashan is accused of specifically. Per Rattner: "McGlashan has led an exceptional life in every other respect... It's inexplicable to me how this happened..." And then Rattner quickly moved on. It's simply much easier for the media to focus on the more well-known names who happen to be Lori Loughlin and Felicity Huffman. Here's more on McGlashan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_McGlashan

Kudos to the two knowledgeable guests on Morning Joe (Anand Giridharadas, timely author of Winners Take All, and Dr. Deborah Kenny, timely author of Born to Rise). They both spoke so eloquently and offered meaningful insights on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2b40Gtptgk
"The most important fish snared in all of this who nobody is talking about is a guy named Bill McGlashan..."

This Real Talk episode also has great guests who shed light on different aspects of this whole topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPMdWGZiGE8

It's also interesting that Singer has admitted to helping at least 500 parents, but only about 50 individuals were caught (33 of them parents). When he was apprehended, Singer, was forced to wear a wire in order to implicate some of the parents he was working with at the time. And Singer admits to having unobstrusively warned some of them not to agree to anything so they would not be caught up further, or implicated in specific wrongdoing.
 
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becca

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The other thing that you get in going to a prestigious university is different dating/mating prospects. That is more important to some people than their education and job prospects.
Not sure what to think on that? Some rarified circles?

I mean I care about some education but I care more about having a job and also finances in order.

There are people in this world with all kinds of fancy degrees that cannot support themselves or are knee deep in debt. And I know for folks in low income Ivy League can be great deal which is why I would tell people to apply but may be harder for those in the middle.

Personally in general we need to deal with how ridiculously expensive college is.
 

KCC

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I'm from a generation where a number of young women went to college to find a spouse and had no real interest in a pursuing career in their major. And they all wanted to "marry up" the social & financial ladder. We called it an MRS degree.
 

Japanfan

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As it has turned out from what we are seeing on social media, Lori Loughlin's daughter (Olivia Jade) who had the Youtube channel and all of the other endorsements (for make-up line hook-ups), did not enjoy going to college. It was her parents' wish for their daughers because they missed out themselves and actually aspired to attend college themselves. A big lesson here is to allow your children to find their own way, and stop trying to live through them. But I guess common sense is in short supply when you have lost all perspective of what life is about in the first place. And now Olivia Jade and Isabella will have unforseen struggles to surmount for the rest of their lives.
To be fair, a lot of children are expected to go to college, even pushed or forced.

This was the case in my family. There was no choice other than going to university and my dad paid in full for four years of it. And my mom was part of it as well, because she'd not had a chance to finish her B.A due the war and moving to a small town where my dad bought a business. (Mom got her B.A. at 65 after they moved back to the city. :cheer2:)

I wanted to go to university and did not have to be forced. But for me that meant leaving home at 16, because I had skipped a year of school and had a fall birthday, so turned 17 in my first first year of university. We lived in a small town and I had to travel and live away from home to go to school. Also, my father owned a drug store and I started working there when I was just 14.

There was also the expectation that we would be fully independent and self-supporting after college. I had a rather rough time with it, and had to extend my education after getting my B.A. - I got a second degree in journalism and dad paid for one year, but I had to make it on my own the second with part-time jobs and a student load/bursery.

I have friends with kids who are 25-30 and still living at home, and these friends worry about their kids eating problem (okay, probably not uncommon, but strange to me as I had no one supervising my diet after turning 17). It's true that rents are incredibly high here and a kid who is not earning a high salary can't afford to move out of home unless she/he spends more than half of his/her earnings on rent or share a one-bedroom with at least three roomates.

Oddly enough, I find myself defending my parents when I talk to friends with kids still at home. I learned to be independent and make my own way. There was time when I would have really welcomed parental support as an adult - particularly when I trying to make it a free lance journalist. I think my life would have taken a different and more positive turn had I had support at that time, but even so, I value the lessons given to me. Or so I tell myself, to be at peace.

Also, I've worked as a private English teacher in the past, and have had parents (mostly of a certain ethnic group) drag their children kicking and screaming to me for lessons. I remember one mother who sat through the lesson and constantly insulted her son ("he's a bad, bad boy, all he ever does it watch video games!). It was awful and uncomfortable, but I think the parent was acting within the norms of her culture.
 

becca

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I'm from a generation where a number of young women went to college to find a spouse and had no real interest in a pursuing career in their major. And they all wanted to "marry up" the social & financial ladder. We called it an MRS degree.
True but now with education so expensive women who want to be stay at home moms need to think about debt.

In today’s day in age too I know a few female doctors who picked their husbands because the men were willing to go part time basically be stay at home Dads. They knew their careers were going to be a lot so they picked someone who could take on the greater parenting role.
 
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MacMadame

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Also, again, rich people already have access to a pool of other rich people to date. So they don't need to go to an Ivy to get that.
 

becca

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Also, again, rich people already have access to a pool of other rich people to date. So they don't need to go to an Ivy to get that.
Yep and if going to college is going to get you into a huge amount of debt and your only goal is to be a stay at home spouse well you’ve hurt your marriage prospects.
 

MacMadame

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Yep and if going to college is going to get you into a huge amount of debt and your only goal is to be a stay at home spouse well you’ve hurt your marriage prospects.
But if your parents are rich, you aren't going to get into debt. :D

My POV is that the advantages that going to an Ivy supposedly buys you are already available to the rich. Therefore, the only reason to cheat to get your kids in is to have bragging rights. Seems like not much reward for the risks they took.

Btw, my former next-door neighbor (the former competitive ice dancer) has a kid who went to ASU. The kid loved it there and seems to be well set up in life. The kid certainly makes more money and has had better paying jobs than my kids. :D
 

becca

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But if your parents are rich, you aren't going to get into debt. :D

My POV is that the advantages that going to an Ivy supposedly buys you are already available to the rich. Therefore, the only reason to cheat to get your kids in is to have bragging rights. Seems like not much reward for the risks they took.

Btw, my former next-door neighbor (the former competitive ice dancer) has a kid who went to ASU. The kid loved it there and seems to be well set up in life. The kid certainly makes more money and has had better paying jobs than my kids. :D
My brother struggled in high school till Senior year when he got in a computer program went to community college for first two years. Then four year school but not a top one he now works for himself in computers. He is set.

I know my company heavily recruits it people from local colleges not even top local colleges. We aren’t Silicon Valley but then we don’t have those costs either.

That’s why I a little bit meh on the obsession with top colleges.

Don’t get me wrong if you can get in one great amazing accomplishment and I think it’s worth it to apply. But all of this stressing kids out to no end....

I think having a college degree is worth it and needed but I would highly say make sure it is something uselful.

Yes rich parents may not have to worry about kids and Ivy League debt.
 

MacMadame

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Local employers know which local schools have the best programs. And recruit accordingly.

Sure there are a few employers here and there who are obsessed with elite schools. But I know of several cases where employers recruit from a local school with less reputation over one with a better reputation because they know that the computer science program at the "lesser" school churns out better software engineers. The school with the better all-round rep may be better in other areas but are behind in computer science.

My niece went to San Jose State over UC Berkeley because SJSU has a better animation program. Sure UC Berkeley is harder to get into but it's better at other things and she wanted to be animator. She interned at Pixar and worked on another short film that got nominated for an Academy award as an intern. Because she picked SJSU over UCB even though she got into both.
 

Skittl1321

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Also, again, rich people already have access to a pool of other rich people to date. So they don't need to go to an Ivy to get that.
Yes, but a "trophy wife" has better credentials if she has a good college education. So pursueing an Mrs even at an Ivy has advantages.

As for networks; again, the best networks, and the people who will help you the most help you because you can help them. So if you are someone who is rich and wants to fund a start-up, you want to do it with OTHER people's money still (less risk for your own). You're going to meet the best people at the elite schools, and they will know other people. You might also meet the people to fill actual positions.

It truly is about access.

Heck, I'm at a 2nd rate MBA program and they talk about is the value of the network, often even more than the value of the classes. It's all about who we meet in the classes. That applies to the elite as well.
 

Jenny

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Heck, I'm at a 2nd rate MBA program and they talk about is the value of the network, often even more than the value of the classes. It's all about who we meet in the classes. That applies to the elite as well.
Agree with this. Time and time again in executive suites, company boards and political offices we see that if you dig just a little, the ties between people - the ones that eventually get a person into positions of power, which is quite often the ultimate goal of people who already had money - were formed when they were students at private schools and colleges, even elite summer camps.

Even just being able to say you went to the same school as someone is often an immediate introduction and shorthanded way of bonding, so yeah, I think it matters plenty for the rich to send their kids to the "right" schools.
 

becca

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Yes, but a "trophy wife" has better credentials if she has a good college education. So pursueing an Mrs even at an Ivy has advantages.

As for networks; again, the best networks, and the people who will help you the most help you because you can help them. So if you are someone who is rich and wants to fund a start-up, you want to do it with OTHER people's money still (less risk for your own). You're going to meet the best people at the elite schools, and they will know other people. You might also meet the people to fill actual positions.

It truly is about access.

Heck, I'm at a 2nd rate MBA program and they talk about is the value of the network, often even more than the value of the classes. It's all about who we meet in the classes. That applies to the elite as well.
Oh I am not Saying there aren’t huge huge huge advantages for attending a top school.

It’s just the obsession I wonder about. I knew a kid in HS who was top of our class one point and basically said screw it after a counselor discouraged him from taking art because it could hurt his GPA take a way a potential AP class.

I am just unsure about putting kid too in school they aren’t ready for academically. Rich or not.
 
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Prancer

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My news reading this week inspired Facebook to recommend this book: Early Decision.

Take all the news stories and all the comments in this thread and add characters--and you have this book, or at least the two chapters of the book that I have read so far. Not surprising, given that the author was herself a college essay coach for many years.
 

BaileyCatts

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Of course now I can't find the right article, but one I read today stated that in the paperwork that has been made public, it lists an "unnamed person" who paid $6.5 million to get their children into Ivy's. All the documentation and proof is there ... just not the name or schools involved. What I want to know is why is this "unnamed person" not being named! Huffman paid $15,000, Aunt Becky bribed $500,000, most of the others bribed under $1 million and yes ... .they bribed and cheated I understand that .... but their names were made public and this "unnamed person" who paid $6.5 million to get what sounds like multiple kids into Ivy's and their name was not made public? Exactly how high ranking a (likely) public official is it that they are blocking their name from being released who by their self paid $6.5 million to bribe their kids way in! This seems to be the worse offender of all of them yet their name is blocked? It almost makes me think people are even bribing their way out of the case! :blah:
 

Prancer

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Of course now I can't find the right article, but one I read today stated that in the paperwork that has been made public, it lists an "unnamed person" who paid $6.5 million to get their children into Ivy's.
I read that, too, but I wonder if that person was charged. If not, I can see why the name hasn't been made public.
 

AxelAnnie

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I thought this was one of the best articles I've read about the college admissions scandal:

College admissions are corrupt because universities are. Here's how to fix them.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/03/19/college-admissions-are-corrupt-because-universities-are-heres-how-fix-them/?fbclid=IwAR2M7XhBWBV-Q5UITkMr9Z2AmYzOxm5bPv8BWPSjlTraxAQ6NzgCPoNyjBw&utm_term=.441654740c61
Hit me....but UCLA is and has always been more lrestigious than USC
How come there is no scandal there. And auto the UC Universities you have a eased in if you went to a community college within UCLA'S geography

Again...why no scandals. And UCLA is in a hugely better part of town than USC. Way closer to the rich folk on the west side.
 

BaileyCatts

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Hit me....but UCLA is and has always been more lrestigious than USC. How come there is no scandal there. And auto the UC Universities you have a eased in if you went to a community college within UCLA'S geography

Again...why no scandals. And UCLA is in a hugely better part of town than USC. Way closer to the rich folk on the west side.

UCLA is definitely involved.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-sports/no-soccer-experience-but-she-still-got-a-spot-on-elite-ucla-team-in-admissions-scandal/ar-BBUYVCw?li=BBnba9I
 

BaileyCatts

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I read that, too, but I wonder if that person was charged. If not, I can see why the name hasn't been made public.
Oh that's a good point. I don't remember now so maybe the article did say that. I don't know why I can't find it now. But seriously ... they apparently had enough proof to have it all notated in the case file that this person paid $6.5 million to get their kids in and the schools involved, but they didn't charge them yet?! So again it makes me wonder how high a ranked official is that person that they still have not been charged. That shoulda been the first person charged.
 

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