College administration bribery scandal

[Winnipeg]

I'd like to think that eventually cheating would catch up with a person.........I knew a girl in university who got a paper from a friend who went to a school in northern Illinois and copied it. The paper got an "A" in Illinois but came back with a big fat "D" at U of C.........tis was before the plagiarism computer apps too. It just scored differently from one place to the next.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Rumor has it that Aunt Becky is leaving Fuller House and joining the cast of Orange Is The New Black.

 

[manhn]

Fuller House's 4th season is going to be its last. Besides, the older characters always did guest appearances. The show focuses on the three women (DJ, Stephanie and Kimmie) and their kids.

The 4th season has not aired on Netflix, not sure if any episodes have been shot.

 

[Prancer]

The US system has not always been messed up, which is what frustrates me greatly.

I agree that the cost issue has changed, but I wouldn't say that the elite college system wasn't messed up before that.

As the country’s Jewish population ballooned in the early 20th century, the Jewish proportion of Harvard students increased exponentially, too. In 1900, just 7 percent of the Ivy League school’s students were Jewish. By 1922, the figure was 21.5 percent.

Lowell felt that some were of deficient character. And even if they weren’t, he feared they would drive away potential White Anglo-Saxon Protestant students who would go on to be America’s political and economic elite — as well as future donors to schools like Harvard.

https://www.jta.org/2018/10/17/unit...jews-is-it-doing-the-same-thing-to-asians-now

It's not news, of course, that racism was rampant in the past, but it does rather call into question whether Ivies were ever true academic meritocracies. And the Ivy network is nothing to sneeze at.

Once you get your foot in the door how hard you work and networking skills matter.

Um, if you don't have a degree from an Ivy, there are fields in which you will never get your foot in the door. It's not coincidence that the majority of the parents who were charged in this case came from finance.

If you are a very smart person and you work hard, you will be successful by most standards no matter where or if you go to college. But if you measure success by money, Ivy graduates make more, and if you measure success by status, Ivy graduates have more, and if you measure success by attaining rarified positions, Ivy graduates have a better shot at them.

I'd like to think that eventually cheating would catch up with a person.........I knew a girl in university who got a paper from a friend who went to a school in northern Illinois and copied it. The paper got an "A" in Illinois but came back with a big fat "D" at U of C.........tis was before the plagiarism computer apps too. It just scored differently from one place to the next.

Since that happens even within institutions--and is one reason English faculty are so often accused of subjective grading--I wouldn't consider that necessarily a sign of institutional differences.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

These people need to pull themselves up by the bootstrap and get over it. Work hard and the possibilities are limitless.

-BB

 

[Debbie S]

Um, if you don't have a degree from an Ivy, there are fields in which you will never get your foot in the door. It's not coincidence that the majority of the parents who were charged in this case came from finance.

In finance, it's probably more important to have an Ivy MBA than Ivy undergrad, although either way, the network will help. And it varies by geography - if you are looking to work in NYC or Boston, them yes, an Ivy or comparable degree is a big help. Outside of those areas, local school grads tend to fill the majority of positions. In many cases, even if you have a degree from a top school, the local grads get preference b/c that's where local companies recruit. I moved back home after college (1993 recession) and I'd go on interviews and encountered many people who had never heard of my college (not an Ivy but close to it in selectivity). They'd tell me, "We get our entry level employees from [local school #1] and [local school #2]."

 

[becca]

I agree that the cost issue has changed, but I wouldn't say that the elite college system wasn't messed up before that.

As the country’s Jewish population ballooned in the early 20th century, the Jewish proportion of Harvard students increased exponentially, too. In 1900, just 7 percent of the Ivy League school’s students were Jewish. By 1922, the figure was 21.5 percent.

Lowell felt that some were of deficient character. And even if they weren’t, he feared they would drive away potential White Anglo-Saxon Protestant students who would go on to be America’s political and economic elite — as well as future donors to schools like Harvard.

https://www.jta.org/2018/10/17/unit...jews-is-it-doing-the-same-thing-to-asians-now

It's not news, of course, that racism was rampant in the past, but it does rather call into question whether Ivies were ever true academic meritocracies. And the Ivy network is nothing to sneeze at.



Um, if you don't have a degree from an Ivy, there are fields in which you will never get your foot in the door. It's not coincidence that the majority of the parents who were charged in this case came from finance.

If you are a very smart person and you work hard, you will be successful by most standards no matter where or it you go to college. But if you measure success by money, Ivy graduates make more, and if you measure success by status, Ivy graduates have more, and if you measure success by attaining rarified positions, Ivy graduates have a better shot at them.



Since that happens even within institutions--and is one reason English faculty are so often accused of subjective grading--I wouldn't consider that necessarily a sign of institutional differences.

Well yes I would imagine if you want to end up in Wallstreet well Ivy League is best. But there other banks. Or a career in academia or with large influx of lawyers Ivy League sets apart but the majority of CEOs did not come from Ivy League in the top twenty

I would never say don’t go to Harvard but I don’t think your life is over if you don’t go. It really is a crap shoot getting into one of those schools.

But yes local schools matter too. Someone who studied finance at Texas AM and looks for a job in Dallas or Houston they will have a local network.

 

[Prancer]

Well yes I would imagine if you want to end up in Wallstreet well Ivy League is best. But there other banks. Or a career in academia or with large influx of lawyers Ivy League sets apart but the majority of CEOs did not come from Ivy League in the top twenty

I would never say don’t go to Harvard but I don’t think your life is over if you don’t go. It really is a crap shoot getting into one of those schools.

But yes local schools matter too. Someone who studied finance at Texas AM and looks for a job in Dallas or Houston they will have a local network.

But "local" isn't what the elite are after, nor is "good somewhere other than the major coastal cities." If you want to be a mover and shaker (or you want your kids to be), you aren't looking for a solid, successful career in Raleigh, NC.

Only crazily obsessive people would say that your life is over if you don't go to Harvard. But if you want to be a Supreme Court justice, then not going to an Ivy is going to be the end of that dream. It doesn't mean you will die or that you can't be a successful judge somewhere, but that's not the dream for some. And it's not realistic to say that you can still be an SC justice if you go to a good state school and work really hard, either. That's not how it works.

Do you have to go to an Ivy to lead a fulfilling life? Of course not. But I think it's false to say that it doesn't matter or that no one cares or that once you start working or have worked for a while, it doesn't make a difference. It can make a difference in where you start working on day one, and that day can make a big difference from that point on.

I read an opinion piece a day or two ago that argued that Silicon Valley happened in California and not on the East Coast because of the East Coast fixation on Ivy degrees--that not having that rigid pipeline is what allowed the tech industry to pursue skills rather than pedigrees and flourish for it. Well, that might be. But you don't see a lot people getting jobs in Silicon Valley without coming from the right schools, either; they're just not quite the same schools.

None of that sounds at all attractive to me, but to people want that kind of thing, the name on the degree matters because it matters to people in that particular line of work.

One of my friends' kids was just accepted to MIT (the first of what I am sure will be an avalanche of acceptance letters)

Friend told me today that her daughter is both excited about getting into MIT and rather meh about it because Friend and her oldest son both went to a university the daughter likes quite a bit and thinks would be a good place for her--Arizona State.

Friend doesn't keep up with the news, so she had no idea why I found that so hilarious.

 

[MacMadame]

But you don't see a lot people getting jobs in Silicon Valley without coming from the right schools, either; they're just not quite the same schools.

I work in high tech in Silicon Valley and that just isn't true. Most employers don't care where you went to school as long as you have some work experience.

 

[Prancer]

I work in high tech in Silicon Valley and that just isn't true. Most employers don't care where you went to school as long as you have some work experience.

Okay. I guess all those stats showing that Google and Facebook hire heavily from MIT and Stanford are just wrong.

 

[Scrufflet]

I have not read the entire thread so apologies if this has been answered. The mother who is suing because her son was rejected said he had a 4.2 average. I thought 4.0 was the top number. Can someone explain?

 

[Debbie S]

Only crazily obsessive people would say that your life is over if you don't go to Harvard. But if you want to be a Supreme Court justice, then not going to an Ivy is going to be the end of that dream. It doesn't mean you will die or that you can't be a successful judge somewhere, but that's not the dream for some. And it's not realistic to say that you can still be an SC justice if you go to a good state school and work really hard, either. That's not how it works.

Again, where you go to law school is probably more important than undergrad. So if one goes to a good state school and then Harvard or Yale for law school, I'd say their future looks pretty good.

I'm curious how you are defining Ivy, since there are schools not officially "Ivy League" that are just as prestigious - MIT, Stanford, Duke, for example, plus a number of top liberal arts colleges where many grads go on to Ivy or other elite grad schools. And most of the colleges involved in this scam aren't Ivy - USC, Stanford, Georgetown, UCLA.

In terms of finance, there are some top business schools that aren't Ivy, but are usually ranked among the best, higher than some Ivy schools - Northwestern, Duke, Stanford, MIT, U of Chicago, Berkeley - the top finance and consulting firms all go to those schools to recruit, just as they go to the Ivies.

I have not read the entire thread so apologies if this has been answered. The mother who is suing because her son was rejected said he had a 4.2 average. I thought 4.0 was the top number. Can someone explain?

Many schools weight averages - i.e. give more points for grades in honors or AP courses. My high school, for example, added 0.67 (2/3 of a grade) to the grade for any honors or AP class - so an A in an honors class was counted as 4.67 in the calculation of overall GPA.

 

[becca]

But "local" isn't what the elite are after, nor is "good somewhere other than the major coastal cities." If you want to be a mover and shaker (or you want your kids to be), you aren't looking for a solid, successful career in Raleigh, NC.

Only crazily obsessive people would say that your life is over if you don't go to Harvard. But if you want to be a Supreme Court justice, then not going to an Ivy is going to be the end of that dream. It doesn't mean you will die or that you can't be a successful judge somewhere, but that's not the dream for some. And it's not realistic to say that you can still be an SC justice if you go to a good state school and work really hard, either. That's not how it works.

Do you have to go to an Ivy to lead a fulfilling life? Of course not. But I think it's false to say that it doesn't matter or that no one cares or that once you start working or have worked for a while, it doesn't make a difference. It can make a difference in where you start working on day one, and that day can make a big difference from that point on.

I read an opinion piece a day or two ago that argued that Silicon Valley happened in California and not on the East Coast because of the East Coast fixation on Ivy degrees--that not having that rigid pipeline is what allowed the tech industry to pursue skills rather than pedigrees and flourish for it. Well, that might be. But you don't see a lot people getting jobs in Silicon Valley without coming from the right schools, either; they're just not quite the same schools.

None of that sounds at all attractive to me, but to people want that kind of thing, the name on the degree matters because it matters to people in that particular line of work.



Friend told me today that her daughter is both excited about getting into MIT and rather meh about it because Friend and her oldest son both went to a university the daughter likes quite a bit and thinks would be a good place for her--Arizona State.

Friend doesn't keep up with the news, so she had no idea why I found that so hilarious.

Oh I agree you want to be a judge you need amazing law school but law is different than undergrad.

 

[MacMadame]

Okay. I guess all those stats showing that Google and Facebook hire heavily from MIT and Stanford are just wrong.

Google and Facebook are just two companies. There are hundreds of thousands of companies in the area.

Also, even Google and Facebook hire people who have experience (vs. just out of school) and once you have experience that trumps where you went to school.

 

[Japanfan]

I'd like to think that eventually cheating would catch up with a person.........I knew a girl in university who got a paper from a friend who went to a school in northern Illinois and copied it. The paper got an "A" in Illinois but came back with a big fat "D" at U of C.........tis was before the plagiarism computer apps too. It just scored differently from one place to the next.

I'd also hope that cheating would catch up with a person, but don't know if that is the case.

I'm an academic editor and routinely have students asking me to write their papers for them. Although I don't, there are plenty of services that will and I've had some nasty email with people who have emailed me looking for a job writing essays, thinking that is what I do (which they would know I don't, had they looked at my website). Those people have firmly defended their right to earn a living helping students cheat/plagiarize, and that is that - nothing I say will change their mind. The market is such that when a demand for something exists, someone will supply it.

And I can sort of understand an ESL student asking for someone to do their literature papers for them - I say sort of because I've worked with many ESL students who spare no effort in trying to understand their literature materials and writing their papers. But please, asking an ESL student to read 'Dante's Inferno'? Even I won't attempt it, not in this lifetime.

What's more troubling is students asking for help in their major, or asking for someone to write an entire dissertation for them.

I recall a law student asking me to do routine homework for him for a law course. I asked him how he would feel if he had to have a surgery and learned that his surgeon had had another student complete his surgery rotation for him. Unfortunately, I doubt I had no impact on that student's desire to cheat. SFAIK he may be out there practicing law today.

 

[Prancer]

Again, where you go to law school is probably more important than undergrad. So if one goes to a good state school and then Harvard or Yale for law school, I'd say their future looks pretty good.

Yes, it does. As it does if you just go to a good state school, although maybe not as bright. But "bright" was not my point.

I'm curious how you are defining Ivy

becca was posting about Harvard, so I was defining Ivies as Ivies. But yeah, you can go some other top schools and have a really bright future. But there are places where that will be not quite as bright, too.

But if you want to include all the top schools, sure, I'm game. A top school will get you places a less-than-top school just won't.

Google and Facebook are just two companies. There are hundreds of thousands of companies in the area.

Also, even Google and Facebook hire people who have experience (vs. just out of school) and once you have experience that trumps where you went to school.

But again, I was responding to becca who was responding to me after I responded to her about where you get your foot in the door. And you can still get it in the door even at Google and Facebook if you didn't go to Stanford or MIT--but you have to have something to make up for not going to Stanford or MIT.

 

[bardtoob]

https://www.inkstonenews.com/educat...=GME-I-alwayson-us-inkstone-fb-uv-culture_lal

 

[bardtoob]

I work in high tech in Silicon Valley and that just isn't true. Most employers don't care where you went to school as long as you have some work experience.

Okay. I guess all those stats showing that Google and Facebook hire heavily from MIT and Stanford are just wrong.

Google and Facebook are just two companies. There are hundreds of thousands of companies in the area.

Also, even Google and Facebook hire people who have experience (vs. just out of school) and once you have experience that trumps where you went to school.

Straight out of school, which school matters.

After 3-5 years of experience in a "technical or skilled" area like accounting, programming, database management, even Recruiting and HR, which school does not matter.

However, in business or marketing, which school seems to last forever. An MBA from Stanford, Berkeley, Harvard, etc. never gets old. In Silicon Valley specifically, an MBA from Santa Clara University has value.

 

[snoopy]

Straight out of school, which school matters.

After 3-5 years of experience in a "technical or skilled" area like accounting, programming, database management, even Recruiting and HR, which school does not matter.

However, in business or marketing, which school seems to last forever. An MBA from Stanford, Berkeley, Harvard, etc. never gets old. In Silicon Valley specifically, an MBA from Santa Clara University has value.

I agree with this for the most part, not sure about HR though. Generally, if you want to live in a meritocracy, get into a tech field. Anything else, all the where you went and who you knows matter more.

 

[smurfy]

I have not read the entire thread so apologies if this has been answered. The mother who is suing because her son was rejected said he had a 4.2 average. I thought 4.0 was the top number. Can someone explain?

Advanced Placement classes can earn more than 4.0. I think an A can be 5.0.

 

[Skittl1321]

Reality check. The SAT is not that mystical. I had a D average in high school and scored in the top 2% on my SATs.

The SAT was designed to predict how well high school students would do in their first years of college, no more and no less, and studies have shown it doesn't do that. Grades are a much better predictor of success because they better reflect work ethic. That's why some universities are dropping the SAT/ACT requirement; they aren't particularly useful.

Could you link to these validity studies that show grades are a stronger predictor? Grades are so variable across the country, I'd love to know how the researcher set up that study.

Especially since you are claiming grades are a -better- predictor.

I think both ACT and SAT claim their strongest validity is in conjunction with high school GPA; but they do have strong validity to freshman success; and I believe graduation success.

Here is College Board's publicly available initial validity study. (The complete study is not available as the redesign has just occurred.)
https://collegereadiness.collegeboa...ilot-predictive-validity-study-first-look.pdf

 

[MsZem]

Could you link to these validity studies that show grades are a stronger predictor? Grades are so variable across the country, I'd love to know how the researcher set up that study.

I was curious myself, since to the best of my knowledge psychometric tests are imperfect predictors, but do have some predictive validity that is useful for screening applicants. But it's been a loooooong time since I passed my psychological testing course, and that was at the undergraduate level.

A quick search on Google Scholar turned up studies supporting the importance of high school grades, non-cognitive factors (e.g. academic discipline) and SAT/ACT. I suspect it really depends on the methodology used - and that is not my area of expertise

Here's a 2009 meta-analysis on the predictive ability of admission tests. I imagine Prancer will have other links that can be shared.

 

[Winnipeg]

Don't colleges and universities have a Code of Conduct which would indicate the consequences if found cheating? Do students not have to sign a statement saying they will abide by the institutions code of conduct??

If there is no code of conduct, what kind of institution is it?

 

[Skittl1321]

I was curious myself, since to the best of my knowledge psychometric tests are imperfect predictors, but do have some predictive validity that is useful for screening applicants. But it's been a loooooong time since I passed my psychological testing course, and that was at the undergraduate level.

A quick search on Google Scholar turned up studies supporting the importance of high school grades, non-cognitive factors (e.g. academic discipline) and SAT/ACT. I suspect it really depends on the methodology used - and that is not my area of expertise

Here's a 2009 meta-analysis on the predictive ability of admission tests. I imagine Prancer will have other links that can be shared.

Like you said, I've heard the best validity is when taken as combination.

It should be noted that the SAT from 2009 is not the same test administered now.

 

[MsZem]

It should be noted that the SAT from 2009 is not the same test administered now.

I know, but it takes time to conduct the kind of longitudinal research that indicates how good a predictor a test is (especially if you want to look beyond first-year success) - not to mention getting enough such studies to conduct a meta-analysis.

 

[MacMadame]

A top school will get you places a less-than-top school just won't.

Except that statistics aren't predicative to the individual so you can't really say that IMO. You can say that it increases your odds but odds are not a guarantee.

Here is what I am trying to say: many of the advantages that an Ivy is supposed to bestow on you are also bestowed by being rich. Therefore

(a) it doesn't make sense for rich people to cheat their kid's way into an Ivy to get those advantages. They pretty much have them.

(b) it's hard to know how much of what Ivies supposedly bestow on their graduates is because they are Ivies or because the majority of kids going to them already have those advantages. (i.e., it's the Correlation is not causation principle)

I have read some studies in this area and I don't think they are designed properly to answer the question of (b).

And you can still get it in the door even at Google and Facebook if you didn't go to Stanford or MIT--but you have to have something to make up for not going to Stanford or MIT.

Or you can get your foot in the door at a start-up or Apple or Intuit or Oracle or any number of companies that recruit from local universities and 2nd tier universities.

Generally, if you want to live in a meritocracy, get into a tech field.

While tech isn't the meritocracy that it thinks it is, it is more of one than many other fields. Maybe all other fields.

If there is no code of conduct, what kind of institution is it?

I'm not sure what behavior you are referring to, but the code of conduct only comes into play after you are admitted. For getting admitted, the only tool colleges and universities have is that you signed your app stating everything on it was true.

 

[overedge]

Don't colleges and universities have a Code of Conduct which would indicate the consequences if found cheating? Do students not have to sign a statement saying they will abide by the institutions code of conduct??

If there is no code of conduct, what kind of institution is it?

At most schools IME the students don't have to explicitly sign a statement re the code of conduct, but there are policies that address students' academic behaviour (e.g. cheating on exams) and non-academic behaviour (e.g. harassment). Here's an example:
https://www.ualberta.ca/provost/dean-of-students/student-conduct-and-accountability

At some point during the admission or registration process, the student usually has to sign something that includes an agreement that they will abide by all of the university's policies, including those ones.

 

[Skittl1321]

@MacMadame I think you misquoted me- I didn't mention code of conduct.

 

[MacMadame]

@MacMadame I think you misquoted me- I didn't mention code of conduct.

Fixed it

 

[KCC]

The other thing that you get in going to a prestigious university is different dating/mating prospects. That is more important to some people than their education and job prospects.