Chinese Skating News, Pt. 3: A long & winding road to Beijing 2022

[barbarafan]

Oh no! Why is my silver empress eternally cursed?

Why do you think? When the surgeons got together and they all gave their opinions to the Chinese Federation of what should be done with the mess of her ankle (I believe) which she had been training and competing on in agony for yrs the Chinese fed. picked the procedure....not a doctor...so most likely it was the one where it would hold up through the Olympic year with only x number of months rehab most not guaranteed for anything after.

 

[binbinwinwin]

Why do you think? When the surgeons got together and they all gave their opinions to the Chinese Federation of what should be done with the mess of her ankle (I believe) which she had been training and competing on in agony for yrs the Chinese fed. picked the procedure....not a doctor...so most likely it was the one where it would hold up through the Olympic year with only x number of months rehab most not guaranteed for anything after.

Who told you that the Chinese Federation choose the operation? They are being carefully monitored and they make adjustments depending on how they are healing. Hongbo has said they are using everything they have available to them, his full comments from the recent interview are here. Please don't make up stories based upon your own prejudices and provide some sources.

 

[jlai]

I wonder how people feel if it is the other way round, and based on the shooting incidents they hear in the states, start assuming how everyone carries guns in the states. Or how every American coach teaches flutzing technique to their skaters.

 

[Dobre]

I wonder how people feel if it is the other way round, and based on the shooting incidents they hear in the states, start assuming how everyone carries guns in the states. Or how every American coach teaches flutzing technique to their skaters.

I believe barbarafan is Canadian? My apologies if I am incorrect.

 

[jlai]

I believe barbarafan is Canadian? My apologies if I am incorrect.

I actually don't care if the said poster is American; the point is the same. Take the word Chinese out of any broad strereotype and substitute Canadian government, Vietnamese community, black coaches, etc and see if it sounds right.

 

[Dobre]

I actually don't care if the said poster is American; the point is the same.

To me, both posts have stereotypical assumptions. I agree with binbinwinwin.

 

[barbarafan]

Who told you that the Chinese Federation choose the operation? They are being carefully monitored and they make adjustments depending on how they are healing. Hongbo has said they are using everything they have available to them, his full comments from the recent interview are here. Please don't make up stories based upon your own prejudices and provide some sources.

I am not talking about this latest injury but the surgery she had prior to Olympic year. There was an article articulating everything I just said. Do your homework before you open your mouth. It clearly stated the final decision of which procedure was neither Sui's nor the doctors. It was the Fed.

 

[barbarafan]

I believe barbarafan is Canadian? My apologies if I am incorrect.

Yes I am...This is not to say we do not have real creeps here. It is just that our creeps keep it quieter as they would get shut down if they did things and admitted it.

 

[jlai]

To me, both posts have stereotypical assumptions. I agree with binbinwinwin.

I didn't assume the nationality of the said poster at all. I merely cited an example the said poster was familiar with. I knew I didn't know the nationality as I posted. But most posters are familiar enough with gun violence in America to know the reference even if they are not American. Or the flutzers among some American skaters. ( I Just do not know enough about stereotypes about other countries to cite them. )

Maybe you also misunderstand my intent? No harm done; I'm glad I can clarify.

 

[binbinwinwin]

I am not talking about this latest injury but the surgery she had prior to Olympic year. There was an article articulating everything I just said. Do your homework before you open your mouth. It clearly stated the final decision of which procedure was neither Sui's nor the doctors. It was the Fed.

I read Chinese and this isn't the first time you've made such assumptions. Here I found the original article with an accurate English translation for you, no where did it say that they choose a route that would only help Wenjing Sui in the short term. They were arguing over what to do and it took them over a month (which is wasting precious time for recovery and training) before someone in the Winter Sports Federation stepped in to help them come to a resolution.

 

[RoseRed]

It's interesting reading through that article and seeing the comments about the programs now that we've seen them:

“I won’t reveal the short program now, but it’s different from previous seasons. I’ll save it as a nice surprise for everyone!” As for the free skate, she couldn’t help but talk about it. “The free skate is music with vocals, it’s a piece of music that Lori [Nichol] really loves. Usually she wouldn’t use it for skaters, but she knew that I would get surgery after returning home, so she choreographed it specially for me.” According to Little Sui, this music is rather slow; the story seems as if it’s tailored for her and Han Cong. “It’s the story of us from this year, it describes our experience: a man and a woman, the two of them each other’s best friends, but they’re only friends, they share one goal and career, helping each other, supporting each other - it’s very emotional!

Did they end up changing the FS, or was that comment meant to be about the SP?

 

[jlai]

Oh, is that what 拍板 means? That term doesn't exist in my part of the world. It's either a newer term or a term common to another part of CHina.

 

[barbarafan]

I read Chinese and this isn't the first time you've made such assumptions. Here I found the original article with an accurate English translation for you, no where did it say that they choose a route that would only help Wenjing Sui in the short term. They were arguing over what to do and it took them over a month (which is wasting precious time for recovery and training) before someone in the Winter Sports Federation stepped in to help them come to a resolution.

Exactly...what on earth do you think the doctors were arguing about? In this article it says -No wonder the doctors argued. Sui Wenjing's surgery must preserve her future competitive performance, but she must be able to recover quickly and it must not effect future competitions.is....impossible to do this properly and still have her ready to compete in good condition at the Olympics. No where were their instructions...make sure the repairs will last and give her a normal full life. And so the cycle of injuries will proceed . She is a person...not a tool for the glory of her country.

 

[jlai]

Many skaters, including Brian Boitano on top of my head, considered their Olympic chances when deciding to opt for surgery, or medical options, and Brian is not remotely Chinese.

 

[binbinwinwin]

Oh, is that what 拍板 means? That term doesn't exist in my part of the world. It's either a newer term or a term common to another part of CHina.

It's just a term that kinda means made the final decision.

Exactly...what on earth do you think the doctors were arguing about? In this article it says -No wonder the doctors argued. Sui Wenjing's surgery must preserve her future competitive performance, but she must be able to recover quickly and it must not effect future competitions.is....impossible to do this properly and still have her ready to compete in good condition at the Olympics. No where were their instructions...make sure the repairs will last and give her a normal full life. And so the cycle of injuries will proceed . She is a person...not a tool for the glory of her country.

I am not arguing with you anymore, you clearly have preconceived notions about the Chinese Federation when you do not have access to Wenjing's medical records or what the doctors thought of her injury. People have kindly taken time out of their day to translate and help people have access to Chinese skaters and their media and you have twisted it. Doctors everywhere have different opinions on injuries and illnesses and how to treat them, China is no different. There are a lot of things wrong with Chinese sports federations and the management of their athletes but I do not think that Wenjing's injury is such a case of it. She had a freak fall in practice and is behind on her training, it can happen to anyone.

 

[fscric]

Thanks binbinwinwin for the original and translated version of the article about Sui's surgery. If the Chinese Fed only cared about the Olympics, otherwise I don't think there were such discussions about which operation to take.

I do have a question about Sui's hair. I don't know if this had been discussed before. I find it very strange that she let her hair down when skating, her hair would fall on her face and cover one of her eyes, as I do not skate at all I would think skating and jumping with one eye covered by hair would be quite dangerous and not easy to keep the balance. But as she seems to have this hair style for quite some time, perhaps I worry for nothing. Anyone has any thought on this?

 

[Kateri]

She had a freak fall in practice and is behind on her training, it can happen to anyone.

Do we know that the fall was related to her previous injuries? It definitely wasn't something separate, like a fall from a lift?

(Thank you for all the info you post!)

 

[hanca]

Thanks binbinwinwin for the original and translated version of the article about Sui's surgery. If the Chinese Fed only cared about the Olympics, otherwise I don't think there were such discussions about which operation to take.

I do have a question about Sui's hair. I don't know if this had been discussed before. I find it very strange that she let her hair down when skating, her hair would fall on her face and cover one of her eyes, as I do not skate at all I would think skating and jumping with one eye covered by hair would be quite dangerous and not easy to keep the balance. But as she seems to have this hair style for quite some time, perhaps I worry for nothing. Anyone has any thought on this?

Well, Pluschenko’s hair would be also covering his eyes when jumping and it never caused him any harm. Skaters with bob or shoulder length hairstyle would all have the same issue- too short to tie back and too long that it could bother them when jumping, spinning, doing twizzles or a few fast turns in a step sequence.

 

[binbinwinwin]

Do we know that the fall was related to her previous injuries? It definitely wasn't something separate, like a fall from a lift?

(Thank you for all the info you post!)

We don't know yet, all the articles on say that Wenjing herself had a fall, did not mention Cong, could be anything. During the open media class Sui/Han were coming to a skid stop together and Wenjing fell out of nowhere, sometimes things happen I guess.

 

[feraina]

I read Chinese and this isn't the first time you've made such assumptions. Here I found the original article with an accurate English translation for you, no where did it say that they choose a route that would only help Wenjing Sui in the short term. They were arguing over what to do and it took them over a month (which is wasting precious time for recovery and training) before someone in the Winter Sports Federation stepped in to help them come to a resolution.

I read the original article, and do not feel that the linked English translation was particularly clear. Here is the original relevant text:

“本来以为回国第一天休整一天，第二天就能手术，没想到专家非常慎重，意见也不一致，直到五一之后才确定了最终的方案，是任老师（冬运中心党委书记任洪国）拍板的。”隋文静说。
难怪专家纠结，隋文静的手术必须保障她后面的训练机能，又要尽快康复，不影响比赛

Here's my own translation:

Originally I thought I would be able to undergo surgery after taking one day of rest upon returning (from Canada for choreography). However, the (medical) experts turned out to be very cautious/serious, and also didn't agree with one another. It took until after May 1 to come up with the eventual plan for the surgery, and the final decision was made by Teacher Ren, the Winter Olympic Center Communist Party Secretary Hongguo Ren," said Wenjing Sui.

It's no surprise that the experts hesitated/argued. Wenjing's surgery must guarantee her long-term ability to train, but also allow her to recover quickly, without affecting the subsequent competitions (of the Olympic season).

I don't think @barbarafan's interpretation is entirely out of the realm of possibilities. But the article did not make it entirely clear what the experts were exactly hesitating/arguing over. We don't know if they were arguing over long-term versus short-term benefits, as @barbarafan inferred, or if they were arguing over the probability of success/adverse outcomes of different procedures, or something else. We certainly don't know what exactly informed or mattered for Mr. Ren's decision-making process -- short-term or long-term concerns, individual athlete's health or national pride, etc.

What is clear is that the final decision was made by a high-level party/government official instead of the athlete herself, or her family, or her doctors, or even her coaching team (who are government employees). There is no transparency or personal autonomy. That sort of thing would just never happen in the West, not even in Russia, where coaches and athletes are fully financially supported by the government. It reflects the patriarchical (both contemporary and historical) culture and social norms/values of China. Perhaps Sui is personally very grateful to the relevant government officials for taking care of her and trusted them to make all the best decisions for her, and had no personal opinion about which surgery would be the best for her. After all, she didn't express any personal opinion or preference, or hint at having any, in this interview -- but then again, she would probably get into trouble if she expressed any hint of not being grateful or trusting, or having a mind of her own, in a news article.

Does anyone remember Tong as in Pang/Tong saying in an interview that he was thinking about getting romantically involved with Pang, but wasn't sure if it was a good idea? So he talked to a fairly high-up political/government official (above the level of Team China), who told him, who is going to be the one who can reminisce with him on all his former figure skating travails and glory but his partner -- and that convinced him to approach Pang. The article made it sound like Pang herself had no any inkling of his romantic interest, until after he talked to this official. I'm sorry I don't have time to find the article right now, but it might have been me who translated it for FSU several years ago. P/T were my sentimental favorites on Team China before Sui/Han!

Anyway, this article also mentions the following later on:

好在，整个手术过程当中，隋文静感受到了大家的关心与爱护… 而术后住院期间，冬运中心党委书记任洪国、副主任刘成亮、领队唐叶红、主教练赵宏博和队里的好多人也都赶来看望小姑娘

Fortunately, throughout the entire surgery experience, Wenjing Sui felt concern and loving protection from everyone... During the hospital stay, Winter Olympic Center Communist Party Secretary Hongguo Ren, Deputy Director Liu Chengliang, Team Leader Tang Yehong, Head Coach Zhao Hongbo and many others from Team China made the trip to see the young girl.

She's referred to as a "young girl" who needs "loving protection", and all the important party/government officials had to come and be named. Did someone working within the relevant government entities with the right kind of "political training" approve this article before it was published? I would be very surprised if that didn't happen. I have seen plenty of articles/photos of all the Chinese figure skating team members (including Sui & Yan) sitting through "political training" classes. As a university professor that gets many Chinese graduate applicants, I see every single one of them takes a community party theory class every semester (which I don't see from any other country which might have have strong top-down imposed political or religious ideology, not Russia, not Iran, certainly not to the same extent).

Sure, Brain Boitano and other athletes had to make tough medical decisions sometimes too. But I would guess they themselves (and their family, especially if they were minors) together with the medical team had the final say in the matter.

 

[jlai]

I read the original article, and do not feel that the linked English translation was particularly clear. Here is the original relevant text:


Here's my own translation:


I don't think @barbarafan's interpretation is entirely out of the realm of possibilities.

There is a difference about pointing out a possibility and assuming a possibility as fact. I'm sure you know the difference.

Personally, I feel like there is no point of reading beyond what is there. We don't know. ANd let's not pretend each person's interpretation isn't colored by their own experience.

The statement about 拍板 was a quick quote so there is no way of knowing what that means. It could be binbinwinwin's interpretation; it could be something meaner. But it was likely a quick quote out of context. There are many journalists here. I am sure they know how to rely on a quick quote out of context for any firm facts

I have heard enough presumptious statements on other culture to last a lifetime. It's just a matter of who is popular to pick on at the moment. (RIght now the fun countries to pick on are the US and China and Russia, and the said poster is lucky to not come from those countries, so he/she can pick on the popular ones all he/she wants)

In China, rumor spreads like wildfire. I can post something erroneous, even unintentionally, and find that error replicated across ten sites in no time. I simply don't make assumptions one way or another based on a story. ANd definitely not read beyond what is not there. It's natural to be suspicious of Chinese government. Sure. But if you don't live there, or don't speak the language, then just admit you don't know and don't jump to conclusions. How do you like it if people from another country start saying stuff about your country when they obviously haven't lived there, all the while being so cock sure they are right about that country they know nothing about?

 

[AxelAnnie]

Thanks binbinwinwin for the original and translated version of the article about Sui's surgery. If the Chinese Fed only cared about the Olympics, otherwise I don't think there were such discussions about which operation to take.

I do have a question about Sui's hair. I don't know if this had been discussed before. I find it very strange that she let her hair down when skating, her hair would fall on her face and cover one of her eyes, as I do not skate at all I would think skating and jumping with one eye covered by hair would be quite dangerous and not easy to keep the balance. But as she seems to have this hair style for quite some time, perhaps I worry for nothing. Anyone has any thought on this?

I love her hair. I am sure she can see through it. It is so totally Sui.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I read the original article, and do not feel that the linked English translation was particularly clear. Here is the original relevant text:


Here's my own translation:


I don't think @barbarafan's interpretation is entirely out of the realm of possibilities. But the article did not make it entirely clear what the experts were exactly hesitating/arguing over. We don't know if they were arguing over long-term versus short-term benefits, as @barbarafan inferred, or if they were arguing over the probability of success/adverse outcomes of different procedures, or something else. We certainly don't know what exactly informed or mattered for Mr. Ren's decision-making process -- short-term or long-term concerns, individual athlete's health or national pride, etc.

What is clear is that the final decision was made by a high-level party/government official instead of the athlete herself, or her family, or her doctors, or even her coaching team (who are government employees). There is no transparency or personal autonomy. That sort of thing would just never happen in the West, not even in Russia, where coaches and athletes are fully financially supported by the government. It reflects the patriarchical (both contemporary and historical) culture and social norms/values of China. Perhaps Sui is personally very grateful to the relevant government officials for taking care of her and trusted them to make all the best decisions for her, and had no personal opinion about which surgery would be the best for her. After all, she didn't express any personal opinion or preference, or hint at having any, in this interview -- but then again, she would probably get into trouble if she expressed any hint of not being grateful or trusting, or having a mind of her own, in a news article.

Does anyone remember Tong as in Pang/Tong saying in an interview that he was thinking about getting romantically involved with Pang, but wasn't sure if it was a good idea? So he talked to a fairly high-up political/government official (above the level of Team China), who told him, who is going to be the one who can reminisce with him on all his former figure skating travails and glory but his partner -- and that convinced him to approach Pang. The article made it sound like Pang herself had no any inkling of his romantic interest, until after he talked to this official. I'm sorry I don't have time to find the article right now, but it might have been me who translated it for FSU several years ago. P/T were my sentimental favorites on Team China before Sui/Han!

Anyway, this article also mentions the following later on:





She's referred to as a "young girl" who needs "loving protection", and all the important party/government officials had to come and be named. Did someone working within the relevant government entities with the right kind of "political training" approve this article before it was published? I would be very surprised if that didn't happen. I have seen plenty of articles/photos of all the Chinese figure skating team members (including Sui & Yan) sitting through "political training" classes. As a university professor that gets many Chinese graduate applicants, I see every single one of them takes a community party theory class every semester (which I don't see from any other country which might have have strong top-down imposed political or religious ideology, not Russia, not Iran, certainly not to the same extent).

Sure, Brain Boitano and other athletes had to make tough medical decisions sometimes too. But I would guess they themselves (and their family, especially if they were minors) together with the medical team had the final say in the matter.

Much ado about nothing. The dr.s make and offer options. The patient asks questions. Ultimately the smart patient follows the drs advice. One needs to assume Sui knows that the Olys are sport....and there is a whole life after that. One I assume she does not want to spend in a wheelchair

 

[binbinwinwin]

Entire post

There's a lot of perhaps in your post, of course we won't know the true story but barbarafan has been known to be make a lot of assumptions and make overly aggressive posts about matters such as this so I will ignore her from now. I don't think they were infantilizing her in that sentence, they said 小姑娘 which is like young lady rather than something like 小女孩 and that she felt everyone's support while recovering.

I feel that there is no need to speculate, we are only given what we are given and at the end of the day treating the skaters like they are prisoners is not a solution nor a constructive way of supporting them. We don't really understand the ins and outs of her injury and the Chinese team has made it clear recently that they have no expectations for this World Championships, their long term goal is 2022. If Sui/Han performs well, I will cheer for them, if they fall, I will always be there to try to lift them up with my voice. That is all. I will not argue anymore, this place has been derailed enough.

 

[hanca]

I read the original article, and do not feel that the linked English translation was particularly clear. Here is the original relevant text:


Here's my own translation:


I don't think @barbarafan's interpretation is entirely out of the realm of possibilities. But the article did not make it entirely clear what the experts were exactly hesitating/arguing over. We don't know if they were arguing over long-term versus short-term benefits, as @barbarafan inferred, or if they were arguing over the probability of success/adverse outcomes of different procedures, or something else. We certainly don't know what exactly informed or mattered for Mr. Ren's decision-making process -- short-term or long-term concerns, individual athlete's health or national pride, etc.

What is clear is that the final decision was made by a high-level party/government official instead of the athlete herself, or her family, or her doctors, or even her coaching team (who are government employees). There is no transparency or personal autonomy. That sort of thing would just never happen in the West, not even in Russia, where coaches and athletes are fully financially supported by the government. It reflects the patriarchical (both contemporary and historical) culture and social norms/values of China. Perhaps Sui is personally very grateful to the relevant government officials for taking care of her and trusted them to make all the best decisions for her, and had no personal opinion about which surgery would be the best for her. After all, she didn't express any personal opinion or preference, or hint at having any, in this interview -- but then again, she would probably get into trouble if she expressed any hint of not being grateful or trusting, or having a mind of her own, in a news article.

Does anyone remember Tong as in Pang/Tong saying in an interview that he was thinking about getting romantically involved with Pang, but wasn't sure if it was a good idea? So he talked to a fairly high-up political/government official (above the level of Team China), who told him, who is going to be the one who can reminisce with him on all his former figure skating travails and glory but his partner -- and that convinced him to approach Pang. The article made it sound like Pang herself had no any inkling of his romantic interest, until after he talked to this official. I'm sorry I don't have time to find the article right now, but it might have been me who translated it for FSU several years ago. P/T were my sentimental favorites on Team China before Sui/Han!

Anyway, this article also mentions the following later on:


She's referred to as a "young girl" who needs "loving protection", and all the important party/government officials had to come and be named. Did someone working within the relevant government entities with the right kind of "political training" approve this article before it was published? I would be very surprised if that didn't happen. I have seen plenty of articles/photos of all the Chinese figure skating team members (including Sui & Yan) sitting through "political training" classes. As a university professor that gets many Chinese graduate applicants, I see every single one of them takes a community party theory class every semester (which I don't see from any other country which might have have strong top-down imposed political or religious ideology, not Russia, not Iran, certainly not to the same extent).

Sure, Brain Boitano and other athletes had to make tough medical decisions sometimes too. But I would guess they themselves (and their family, especially if they were minors) together with the medical team had the final say in the matter.

From reading the article, what surprised me was how she spoke about pain. Did she have general anaesthetic at all? And what about after the surgery? As someone who had quite a few surgeries throughout my life, and some of the quite nasty ones, I have always been prescribed painkillers that took care of the pain. I am not sure what are the limitations on her taking painkillers as an elite athlete, if she can’t use some painkillers because it could be considered as doping, but I never experienced such a pain after any of my surgeries. Does she have incompetent doctors, or do Chinese doctors believe that some level of suffering is good for their patients (the first noble truth in Buddhism says something about life being suffering), or are elite athletes not allowed to use decent painkillers? Why was she in pain?

 

[jlai]

The article said she took med and it hurt again once the med wore off. Then the injection(s). Couldn't tell how long or how many injections as Chinese words don't indicate plural.

 

[hanca]

The article said she took med and it hurt again once the med wore off. Then the injection(s). Couldn't tell how long or how many as Chinese words don't indicate plural

She said she couldn’t sleep at night, and the following day she cried the whole day. That doesn’t sound to me that she had a short periods of pain between the pain medication wore off and new dose kicked in. It seems to me that she was either prescribed inadequate pain medication, unless it is intended to keep patients in China to suffer? As a person who didn’t suffer too badly after any of my surgeries, I am wondering why she was left in pain.

 

[jlai]

She said she couldn’t sleep at night, and the following day she cried the whole day. That doesn’t sound to me that she had a short periods of pain between the pain medication wore off and new dose kicked in. It seems to me that she was either prescribed inadequate pain medication, unless it is intended to keep patients in China to suffer? As a person who didn’t suffer too badly after any of my surgeries, I am wondering why she was left in pain.

She said she was really doped up during the operation and I guess it eventually wore off. Meds don't help

 

[hanca]

She said she was really doped up during the operation and I guess it eventually wore off.

Yes but after general anestetics wears off, the painkillers are supposed to kick in. I am not sure how it is done at your side of the world, but here they don’t let you suffer unnecessarily. At least not when you have private insurance. I haven’t had a surgery done on NHS so I don’t know how it is done when NHS pays for it.

 

[jlai]

She said oral meds don't help. Perhaps she tried and it didn't work. PErhaps the care isn't as awesome as what you have in U.K. There is no telling from the quick quotes.