Good point. I think too often we assume a missed throw is the girl/woman’s fault whereas in some cases it’s a bad throw on the part of the boy/man. I remember all too often the announcers would marvel at how Jessica Dube was cat like in her ability to land throws which, while not pointed out at the time seemed to indicate that Bryce maybe wasn’t all that consistent at doing his job. Same with twists. If a twist is huge it looks to we uneducated fans that the guy gets the credit and in some cases that may be true but sometimes the girl’s role is overlooked. Not to upset all the Kirsten fans since most of our Sr pairs don’t have huge twists (Bardei and Brasseur excepted) but Kirsten has never had a big twist with either Dylan or Mike compared to many international level twists. I only use Kirsten as an example since it’s well known that Dylan was a monster when it came to strength so are we to assume that somehow both he and Mike both had poor technique or is it something with Kirsten (technique or maybe core strength cause she’s certainly small and light enough) that separates her twist from others that are much larger. I noticed this year 2 Jr pairs, Brooke and Brandon and Patricia and Zachary both have higher triple twists than MTM. Certainly in the case of Brooke and Brandon it’s not the boy’s massive strength so either better technique on the part of the boy, girl or maybe both? You can tell from this post it’s certainly not my area of expertise so thoughts from anyone out there who actually understands why many senior Canadian pairs twists don’t compare to those from other countries even though it is looking like some of our Jr pairs are figuring it out or maybe I should say their coaches are?
Canadian Pairs 2019/2020 Season News and Updates
- Thread starter Sylvia
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Just curious..did you mean Julianne or Lubov? (Just wondering if that's what she said in previous seasons, or if she said it this season). Thanks!
Julianne. And, yes, it is what she mentioned in previous seasons.
TAT loved very much that pairing/pair and praised Julianne particularly.
Interesting...thanks for sharing that!
I also really like(d) Seguin and am holding out hope that she'll make a come back with another partner..
Case in point, look at Evelyn & Trennnnnt... They got some help/pointers from one of the Russian teams (forget which one) and the improvement is incredible. Just a different technique, but maybe that technique is worth making more common with Canadian Pairs training???
overedge
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Don't forget how Elvis Stojko was lionized after skating with so many injuries at the Nagano Olympics and winning a medal. There was lots of talk about "pushing through the pain" then, including from Elvis himself. Unfortunately sports media loves these kinds of "hero" stories, no matter what kinds of unrealistic and potentially dangerous messages they send.
Good point. Evelyn and Trent’s twist is so much improved. Look at Sui and Han, their size difference and his build yet...great twist. Surprising more Canadian pairs and or coaches haven’t studied twists from other parts of the world and tried to implement. It’s like Canada is fine handing that element to other pairs and focusing on other elements. Hopefully with what I have seen with some of the Junior pairs that will change in the future. It’s like when our women know skaters from Russia, Japan and US are doing triple axels and quads yet there seems to be a sense of contentment with regular triples here. If some of our women are working on quads or triple axels I stand corrected. But I suppose that discussion is for a different thread.
barbarafan
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Totally agree with that. Canada has its own technique which does not stack up with European twist. Am I allowed to say we Canadians can be a tad stubborn at times? (very politely so of course). Can anyone explain to me what there is about the cdn technique which would be better...I am lost.
Watched 4CC pairs free. Evelyn and Trent deserve worlds over Luba and Charlie. More consistent skating. Luba & Charlie just couldn’t deliver. Besides one of the jumps being a double, and one of the throws being a double the other throw and jump had issues. Kirsten and Mike had another off skate. I feel for them. As they don’t have some of the huge elements other pairs have, consistency has always been their strength. Between the Grand Prix final and this errors have started to show up in their usually error free skating. Hope they can regain their confidence/form for worlds.
I just watched Luba & Charlie, and Mike & Kirsten, both had twists that were by international standards, barely above the males head, and both had what appeared to be shoulder contact. Even if the scores didn’t necessarily reflect it, that’s how those two twists look. Evelyn and Trent’s has improved to the point where he is now catching her cleanly before his shoulder and there’s no contact normally. I agree completely with you. I don’t know anything about the technique of a twist but the Canadian twists almost look like the man is trying to spin the girl at the top of his arm extension where some of the better international twists it doesn’t even look like the man is trying to spin the girl at all, but that he’s just literally throwing her way up and she’s doing all the work at twisting. Not sure if that makes any sense but that’s just how it looks. I mentioned in an earlier post that a couple of our junior pairs are getting more height on their twists than our most of our seniors so hopefully the willingness (Evelyn & Trent excluded) to just settle is a senior pair thing and our junior pairs coming up will bring a refreshing change to that element.
ninalovesskating
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Evelyn&trent > Luba&charlie
Too bad about the inconsistency at 4CC for the pair teams. This point In the season and given that MTM are veterans, I hoped to see a better performance.
Let’s hope the can regroup and pull it together for Worlds.
And I’ll be hoping the juniors have some quick development with some wow factor elements and connection. I’d like to see a team with some personality, we need more then another love song.
Let’s hope the can regroup and pull it together for Worlds.
And I’ll be hoping the juniors have some quick development with some wow factor elements and connection. I’d like to see a team with some personality, we need more then another love song.
puglover
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Not trying to find excuses here, but this competition was a quick turn around after our nationals and on the other side of the world. Also, a lot of pressure on W/M and I/B knowing that the world 2nd team selection was on the line. Just my thoughts - I felt I/B seemed very tense and tentative in the short - similar to how they were at nationals. However, they seemed to come into themselves in the long and to be enjoying it out there - a positive sign. W/M have improved so much - just amazing - and it seemed unusual for him to miss the side by sides. There are so many elements in a pairs program and most of theirs were very good. As for MT/M - they can be up there and they were in the short. They are generally so consistent in their jumps - a huge asset. I am a big fan of theirs.
As to the Canadian issue with the triple twist - I have read many explanations for this. Actually Meagan and Eric did not have the best twist and she acknowledged it was not their favorite element. As I recall, she said their big height difference was actually a disadvantage as Eric had to get down so low to get her up. They all seem to be aware of it - the solutions do not seem to be easy fixes.
As to the Canadian issue with the triple twist - I have read many explanations for this. Actually Meagan and Eric did not have the best twist and she acknowledged it was not their favorite element. As I recall, she said their big height difference was actually a disadvantage as Eric had to get down so low to get her up. They all seem to be aware of it - the solutions do not seem to be easy fixes.
At this point, I wonder if MT/M mistakes are just them wanting it too much (not that I blame them). Watching them skate I truly think they are having clean run-throughs during practice and they are just struggling to put together a clean free when it matters. I hope they will manage to make it work for Worlds, their FS is so good and deserve a clean showing.
As for I/B, surprisingly I think they may have regressed since they first debuted in a small summer competition. I'm not sure if it's the pressure that's been getting to them, but it was shocking to see double their throws in both the SP and FS. Still, they are a new team and I think calling it a season now and working on improving for next season is the best way to go for them, the potential is there.
And W/M twist is so improved that I'm almost floored by it, who would have thought a little time with Max Trankov will bring such change. I think the judges are not giving them enough GOE for it, perhaps since they got used to their old subpar one. I think they earned the world spot and I hope they'll get to go and qualify for the FS, with time I hope their GOE and PCS will improve as well, right now I feel like they are being undermarked.
As for I/B, surprisingly I think they may have regressed since they first debuted in a small summer competition. I'm not sure if it's the pressure that's been getting to them, but it was shocking to see double their throws in both the SP and FS. Still, they are a new team and I think calling it a season now and working on improving for next season is the best way to go for them, the potential is there.
And W/M twist is so improved that I'm almost floored by it, who would have thought a little time with Max Trankov will bring such change. I think the judges are not giving them enough GOE for it, perhaps since they got used to their old subpar one. I think they earned the world spot and I hope they'll get to go and qualify for the FS, with time I hope their GOE and PCS will improve as well, right now I feel like they are being undermarked.
I agree to the points you’ve made, and guess better the mistakes made here then at Worlds.
MTM I am a fan but with their age and experience it just seems to be harder to accept this performance. Maybe being a big fan I expect more.
I/B I feel need more time and not sure she’ll figure out the jumps. I have thought this year they have been scored higher at times
W/M I am a fan, huge improve the this season. Assuming they get the world spot, I am happy for them. Hard season for them but didn’t give up.
Still gonna watch closely to what the juniors can develop this season.
I believe Canada can showcase more
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I quite like that I/B still smile when it goes wrong. It shows they are really enjoying the partnership. I remember how utterly disgusted he looked in the KnC at his last Worlds with Seguin, and he just looks so much happier now. However I do hope they become more consistent next season. Their lifts are incredible and the rest isn’t matching up yet! I hope they get better choreo too that really shows off her amazing flexibility.
I’m not a W/M fan but their improvement really has earned their World spot, good luck to them.
Sad that MT/M weren’t on form today, that fall was out of nowhere
I’m not a W/M fan but their improvement really has earned their World spot, good luck to them.
Sad that MT/M weren’t on form today, that fall was out of nowhere
I/B smiling at the end was ok with me, I know they all have ideas on how they want to come across to the fans. I love her flexibility.
I would love to see other pair girls strive for more flexibility. But so much more to a good pair team IMO.
But a newer team, I’ll watch and see what the bring next season.
I would love to see other pair girls strive for more flexibility. But so much more to a good pair team IMO.
But a newer team, I’ll watch and see what the bring next season.
TOtally agree. I don't know how that one judge in both programs gave them negative GOE on their twist... it wasn't negative-worthy...(anymore)
Absolutely agree- a team with a personality.
IMHO Kirsten with Dylan had it in abundance, the same Charlie and Julianne.
A personality of pair team is such a mystery... I wish and hope Luba and Charlie will get in in abundance, too; the same Kirsten and Michael.
Aaron MB Fan
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This discussion has me longing for a Canadian Pairs team that defines what makes Canadian Pairs so special. Strong technical elements and spins combined with chemistry and beautiful skating skills, edge quality and flow. Longing for a Canadian Pairs team that combines all of this who delivers it at Worlds to exceed expectations like Dube & Davison did in 2008. Such a special performance.
www.youtube.com
Jessica Dube and Bryce Davison LP at 2008 World Championships (British Eurosport)
The music: "The Blower's Daughter" by Damien Rice.
Yes, I do remember this special feeling watching Dube and Davison; it truly was a fantastic, fantastic performance! And such a performances stays I the memory for ever.
I am not Canadian but I deeply respect and love Canadian Pair skating.. there is something special and distinct, always has been.
I am not Canadian but I deeply respect and love Canadian Pair skating.. there is something special and distinct, always has been.
aftershocks
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In the fp skating next to last, it simply seemed like nerves under pressure for M-T/M. I had thought M-T/M might manage to hold off S/H this time with the lead they had in the sp. But M-T/M had to skate clean or for sure make no other mistakes after that miscue on the triple-jump pass. Kirsten is usually solid, so it shows just how much a pressure cooker it is to hold things together knowing you need to skate clean for a possible win against tough champions. And ice being slippery, Michael took a wrong step and tumbled.
Sui's issues appear mainly physical discomfort (not nerves) so it's the pounding and pain that makes her jumps more difficult. But Sui guts it out, even with the minus GOE on both of their jumping passes. S/H were mentally prepared in the fp to weather their jump weaknesses and to make sure they slam-banged everything else with vigor and verve, especially after their less than solid sp.
dramagrrl
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That 2008 D&D performance was also one of my favourites. I think Julianne and Charlie could have had that had things worked out differently.
Colonel Green
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I personally doubt that beating Sui/Han was the biggest factor; they skated after Sui/Han, they would have known that realistically they weren't going to be that score even with their few points' lead from the short.
KMT probably popped because she did it nationals and was thinking about not doing it again; with Michael, that sort of fall is flukey and the sort of thing that happens randomly.
aftershocks
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This discussion has me longing for a Canadian Pairs team that defines what makes Canadian Pairs so special. Strong technical elements and spins combined with chemistry and beautiful skating skills, edge quality and flow. Longing for a Canadian Pairs team that combines all of this who delivers it at Worlds to exceed expectations like Dube & Davison did in 2008. Such a special performance.
Jessica Dube and Bryce Davison LP at 2008 World Championships (British Eurosport)
The music: "The Blower's Daughter" by Damien Rice.
Perhaps Deanna will soon be released, and maybe she and Maxime will continue to improve. They already look so good together, with a lot of chemistry, presentation skills and grace. And speaking of 3-twists, have you guys seen Deanna/Max's 3-twist?
It was huge at Canadian Challenge in the sp which they won. Deanna spoke about Max's strength and power, and how she can feel the great amplitude and power. There are also some interesting looking pairs coming up in Canadian juniors. Plus, Brasseur/Bardei have superb lifts and an excellent 3-twist -- they just need to harness their talent and come together better emotionally.
dramagrrl
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And work on their throws, which always seem to be a major question mark.
aftershocks
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Come on now. M-T/M were nearly able to take advantage of S/H's rustiness at last year's 4CCs. That's why I thought they were going to be able to manage to pull out a win this time. As I said, it had to be in M-T/M's minds that they needed to skate clean again in the fp. S/H laid down a very good fp and the judges responded, but they weren't perfect. Had M-T/M skated clean, they had a huge chance to do something special heading into Montreal Worlds, so it appears to me they put more pressure on themselves. I totally do not think M-T/M were thinking about coming in second or third at 4CCs after the sp they'd laid down w6ere they also skated after S/H and knew there was an opening.
Sure Mike's unexpected fall while skating forward was flukey because ice is slippery, and nerves sometimes make way for flukey missteps.
ETA:
Scoring 76.36 in the sp was a big score for M-T/M. Had they at least been as clean and on form in the fp, the judges might have been willing to reward them with additional high scores. The judges always like it when skaters perform reliably. With a clean free skate, it would not have been out of the realm of possibility for M-T/M to score around 72.27 (or slightly higher) on tech and 69.17 on PCS, which would have brought their combined scores in sp (76.36) and fp (141.44) to 217.80, which would have been enough to edge Sui/Han overall by percentage points.
S/H scored 144.34 in the fp and 217.51 overall. So in that scenario, S/H would have won the fp, but landed in second behind M-T/M. Such a feat by Kirsten/Michael was totally possible with a clean free skate, especially seeing their huge sp score.
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Like Lubov with the jumps, I’m not sure about her throws, juniors I can watch develop and make mistakes, seniors I like the solidness, speed and creativity.
And if their partnership is rocky in the beginning I’m not sure we’ll see that connection.
I hope to see the juniors next season start to push the bar, seniors from this year will have the advantage so maybe that will be the start of stronger Pairs in Canada.
Colonel Green
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I mean...that's not really realistic for any new partnership; by definition, they take time to develop. In the case of Justine & Mark, the road has definitely been bumpier and more protracted than would be ideal, but they are demonstrably progressing.
With some rare exceptions, Canadian pairs aren't stars in juniors and don't start to be really competitive internationally until they've had a few senior seasons.
I also hold out hope for some of the up and coming junior pairs to try to raise the bar. Laurin and Ethier have a nice look and it seems like they can jump. There seems to be a shortage of solid jumpers in general amongst the junior pairs girls. Even the champions Patricia and Zach there remains a question regarding her triple jumps. They were pretty rare in her singles when she competed and while Zach can land them they haven’t been able to incorporate a triple jump or combo into their repertoire. Same applied to Brooke and Brandon. She had triple and triple combo but Brandon didn’t. Hopefully Brooke finds a partner who has the jumps to add to her triple throws.
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