Ashley Wagner reveals she was assaulted by John Coughlin

[livetoskate]

I am glad Ashley had the courage to speak out. And shame on Sappenfield for referring to Namiotka as mentally ill in on of the other articles.

 

[Prancer]

I do realize everyone is in a different place, and people deal with things differently.

However, lauding someone's courage for not disclosing when it mattered, misses a point.

To see courage, Watch the Heart of Gold. Those girls and women stepped up because they cared about the girls who would come behind them, or those who thought the molestation / harrasment was their fault.

So I read your link and there is a rather obvious disconnect between your comment and what actually happened there, but staying on topic.....

Ashley has said that she was moved to speak up when Alyssa Liu won Nationals because she wanted the USFS to take action to protect young girls like Liu in the sport. Telling her story about John Coughlin is not just about accusing John Coughlin. It is about trying to do something about a culture in which young athletes are especially vulnerable. That is, considering the backlash she knew she would get, about as selfless as it gets.

But here you are again, sneering at the victim.

And speaking of here we are again:

He could request a hearing but he was banned from speaking in the press

No. He wasn't. As has been established multiple times in past threads. If you are just going to bring up all the false arguments you have made before, it's time to take another vacation from a Coughlin-related thread.

 

[tony]

I am glad Ashley had the courage to speak out. And shame on Sappenfield for referring to Namiotka as mentally ill in on of the other articles.

That was Tara Modlin unless I missed something.

 

[kittysk8ts]

With all that has been said and done surrounding #metoo in the last couple of years, I wonder when we will move on from the blame game. It's time to educate EVERYONE. Thoroughly. And discuss solution without blaming. Myself included. We need to start from square one and move forward.

 

[livetoskate]

That was Tara Modlin unless I missed something.

Sorry about that. Thanks for the correction. It was in a Washington Post article:

"Tara Modlin, Coughlin’s agent, denied the accusation, which was reported by USA Today. “It seems that you want me to comment on an unstable persons [sic] Facebook comment — I don’t really understand your question,” she texted a USA Today reporter. " … my suggestion is to call some of his other partners …”"

 

[judiz]

So..Ashley gets it off her chest when John cannot refute her story. I do not call that brave. By not reporting it....she left John free to go do it to someone else. I find that cowardly and self serving.. Kind of like the big named stars who leftvWeinstein free to prey on others.

John could had defended himself, he lied when he said he wasn’t allowed to talk about the allegations and suspension. He could had issued a statement, he could had admitted he had a problem and gotten help.

 

[personwhoishere]

People should be like “well I’m glad he’s dead now! Very happy. Glad he killed himself”?

Nope. They should apologize for supporting and enabling an abuser, and not supporting and believing the other individuals he abused.

 

[ilovepaydays]

People are ripping Kaitlyn Weaver on Ashley's Instagram post. Sigh.

The comments towards Alexa Knierim’s reply on that post are getting worse. This is getting beyond insane.

 

[Willin]

This is an important point that I think all rinks need to take seriously, not just those associated with USFSA. In youth sports, and maybe especially "early peaking" sports like figure skating and gymnastics where athletes are grouped by ability, not just age, and where practice sessions are mixed-age, there is a lot of mixing of age groups and a sort of false peer-hood among skaters of wildly differing ages and maturity levels.

And in cases where older teen/young adult skaters may also be coaches, there is a lot of grey area when it comes to peer-mentor-authority that lends itself to both mixed messages and openings for grooming behaviors and potential abuse.

I think this is an area where ISI, USFSA, USA Hockey and rink associations need to get on the same page with a clear, unified message to skaters, coaches and parents.

I know I've had this conversation with my daughter as she moves into coaching; that it would be prudent and proper to make sure all her interactions with younger skaters are kept professional and with her in the role of adult, as much as she might like to be "buddy buddy" with some of the students/younger friends while she's practicing on freestyle or hanging out in the lobby, etc. This is for the safety of younger children, especially those who might thrive on being favorites of a coach -- parents need to be able to recognize right away when a coach/older skater - younger skater relationship is not "right"; normalizing those grey area relationships at the rink does not help anyone and I'm not sure enough coaches are educated in maintaining appropriate boundaries.

Again, definitely not saying that coaches who are buddy-buddy with kids or who play favorites are necessarily grooming, but when there is a defined and repeated ethical expectation that all coach/student relationships are more clearly professional-only, I think it can help keep kids safe and could more clearly reveal unsafe relationships.

This. This so much.

One coach I grew up with is really friendly with her high school aged students. She'll go out to dinner with them, hang out with them, interact extensively on social media, etc. I think she's stopped doing this with her newer students, but it's still disturbing that the boundaries are being broached and she doesn't get why that's wrong. In any job me/my friends had that involves supervising underage people we were never allowed to see them outside of work, interact on social media with them OR their parents, etc.
I think skating can blur the line because young coaches can be still be coaching while occasionally training alongside their underage students or other underage skaters at the rink. So even if the relationship/friendship can be okay in one context (eg. practicing on the same sheet of ice or talking during an ice cut in a public place), it can easily cross a line to something less okay ethically/appropriateness because that single context is so innocuous. For the younger coaches at my old rink I've seen an "I'm going to starbucks!" call quickly turn into them going to starbucks with a few underaged students tagging along.
TBH I think USFS can do a lot more to teach new coaches and older skaters boundaries: sexual harassment training, ethics training regarding coach/skater relationships (or the PSA setting rules about it), education about competition/travel/training camp boundaries (eg. ensure underaged skaters have a parental chaperone in room, no coaches in a skater's hotel room, etc.), social media education, etc etc. It's so easy to cross these boundaries that without constant reminders for the "responsible" adults in the room I worry nothing will change.

Not that piling on doesn't often go way over the top, but skaters who eulogized Coughlin publicly even though the allegations had by then been reported have to expect some backlash if they aren't going to acknowledge that. I was one of the people interviewing Weaver and Poje after the free dance at Canadian nationals when they made that dedication, and it was awkward.

The parade of red hats at the last US Nationals looked bad at the time, but it looks worse and worse as time goes by.

Though I'm much less concerned about skaters than about people like Dalilah Sappenfield, whose vitriol was truly alarming for someone who is a mandatory reporter and responsible for protecting minors under her charge.

I thought it at the time and I still think Sappenfield knew very well what happened in the past and was way more afraid she was going to be caught up in a lawsuit. She was trying to set up a defensive parameter.

Dalilah definitely needs some punishment here for the victim-blaming, insulting victims, and generally promoting a hostile environment for female skaters who have been assaulted. But we should also question why she did nothing when she certainly knew something: if not Coughlin's behavior, that there were house parties involving underage skaters.

 

[SHARPIE]

No

I’m telling you to stop posting in this thread now so stop.

 

[Vagabond]

One coach I grew up with is really friendly with her high school aged students. She'll go out to dinner with them, hang out with them, interact extensively on social media, etc. I think she's stopped doing this with her newer students, but it's still disturbing that the boundaries are being broached and she doesn't get why that's wrong. In any job me/my friends had that involves supervising underage people we were never allowed to see them outside of work, interact on social media with them OR their parents, etc.

I see your point when it comes to skaters competing on home ice. But how would you handle what happens when skaters travel for training camps and competitions? The incident Wagner describes happened at Champs Camp, not wherever she was living at the time. And while there apparently were adults (John Coughlin, for example) present, it would appear that Wagner's coach was not there.

 

[Inessence]

Some people are pathological when it comes to victim-blaming. Just wow.

You should look at the “USA Today Sports” comments on Twitter. Absolutely appalling.

 

[maatTheViking]

First of all Ashley is very brave for speaking out, and I am very saddened for her and the other victims.

And USFSA ignoring the conditions that makes things like this possible--the parties (where were the adults?! the coaches, the minders, the people supposed to look out for these kids?!), the age gaps, where imo the older skaters are not mature or responsible like actual adults and therefore create situations like this, then USFSA ignoring it...is infuriating. I hope Ashley's recommendations to USFSA are looked into. We have a lot of young people in this sport who are not protected, both girls and boys, from this sort of thing happening because the federation doesn't give a fcuk. They only care about results. As I assume most sports organizations do, sadly.

I agree about Ashley's recommendations, and that USFSA needs to do something to educate and try to avoid situations like.

however, John WAS an adult, and while everyone was relatively young, you can't lock people in a cage until they are 18. To me, there is nothing overly strange about young athletes going to a party together. The problem is sexual assault, not partying.

It would not have been less assault if Ashley had been 18, or 20, or 22. Would she have reported it faster? Would John have acted the same? We don't know, but it is not like seperating adults from non-adults makes sexual assaults non-present.

Rape and sexual assault are not the logical consequences of being drunk in a public place (or a private one for that matter). They happen because a person chooses to commit assault or rape. Simple as that. Blaming the location, the circumstances, the alcohol, the clothing, anything else, is just magical thinking: If people just obey the rules then the bad scary thing won't happen to them, and if they don't then it's their own fault, because they knew the rules. It's very comforting to believe that following the rules will keep you safe, but I'm afraid it just doesn't work. Because the people who commit assault and rape? They don't care about following those rules.

She was among trusted friends and she should have been safe. And she was, until the moment he climbed into her bed and started assaulting her. He is to blame, not her. Not alcohol. Not a party environment. Just him.

Exactly. Athletes should be able to relax and have fun together, without inappropriate behavior. I think it is much more about recognizing and preventing this sort of behavior than just saying 'don't party'.

 

[CaliSteve]

Unfortunately there will be those rabid Conghlin defenders who will only focus on the fact that Ashley had her first alcoholic drink that night and they will claim her memories are hazy due to that.

I dont think that will happen.

 

[PRlady]

In related news, a tweet from Phil Hersh just now:


https://twitter.com/olyphil/status/1156998565136359426?s=20

Lou Anna K. Simon, Michigan State president during the years MSU employee Larry Nassar sexually assaulted dozens of young women, got a $2.4M retirement deal. Scott Blackmun, USOC boss forced out largely due to his inaction in Nassar case, got a $2.4M severance. I want to puke.

 

[ElleL]

One coach I grew up with is really friendly with her high school aged students. She'll go out to dinner with them, hang out with them, interact extensively on social media, etc. I think she's stopped doing this with her newer students, but it's still disturbing that the boundaries are being broached and she doesn't get why that's wrong. In any job me/my friends had that involves supervising underage people we were never allowed to see them outside of work, interact on social media with them OR their parents, etc.
I think skating can blur the line because young coaches can be still be coaching while occasionally training alongside their underage students or other underage skaters at the rink. So even if the relationship/friendship can be okay in one context (eg. practicing on the same sheet of ice or talking during an ice cut in a public place), it can easily cross a line to something less okay ethically/appropriateness because that single context is so innocuous. For the younger coaches at my old rink I've seen an "I'm going to starbucks!" call quickly turn into them going to starbucks with a few underaged students tagging along.
TBH I think USFS can do a lot more to teach new coaches and older skaters boundaries: sexual harassment training, ethics training regarding coach/skater relationships (or the PSA setting rules about it), education about competition/travel/training camp boundaries (eg. ensure underaged skaters have a parental chaperone in room, no coaches in a skater's hotel room, etc.), social media education, etc etc. It's so easy to cross these boundaries that without constant reminders for the "responsible" adults in the room I worry nothing will change.

I completed my SafeSport training a week or so ago so I could teach at a new rink. The activities you mention are explicitly discussed in the training as inappropriate. I believe all coaches have to take this training. Coaches are expected to address/report such behavior, even if it is not illegal. The training also provides many reasons why misconduct is not reported, and says that those who report are usually not making it up. The training was eye-opening for me because we tend to only focus on the criminal aspects, such as sexual assault and coach/student physical relationships. But it goes much deeper than that.

 

[CaliSteve]

It shouldn’t, but his defenders were saying the accusations were sabotage over a commentating position and given Ashley’s career, she would get more offers than Coughlin would have.


I’m not a teenager, but Coughlin’s family and some of his online defenders made the argument that the accusers were no name skater who were jealous. Now it came out that the accuser was much more successful than Coughlin was, that argument has been thrown out.

YUP! Ashley shut that down!

 

[Habs]

My take on this. Ashley has a right to feel this situation anyway she feels, and to speak about it.

When i read the "circumstances" she is describing, if i take out "Wagner and Coughlin as famous skaters", given she was 17 and he was 22 - basically college freshman and college senior, I see this:
- college age party, people drink, it gets too late to go home. many crash on floor, couches, beds. Boys try to get into girls' pants. Girls push them away, boys stop. Girls may feel imposed on. Boys may feel rejected. Nobody is hurt, just slightly bruised egos and feeling uncomfortable.

Bold is mine.
You don't get to decide that nobody is hurt. Clearly, this haunted Ashley for 10 years. Maybe not physically, but this means she was hurt.
ONLY ASHLEY gets to decide if nobody is hurt.

 

[CaliSteve]

Drunk teenagers at a house party. That is the problem right there. USFS needs to discourage the party environment at camps and competitions and do way more to educate all of its skaters on what acceptable behavior is. A formidable challenge with groups of young people who want to let loose after intensely stressful situations. There's a reason that the Olympics provides free condoms.

I believe that it happened. I also think it could have been misinterpreted signals.

This doesnt just happen at "House Parties". It happens everywhere.

 

[Alilou]

My take on this. Ashley has a right to feel this situation anyway she feels, and to speak about it.

When i read the "circumstances" she is describing, if i take out "Wagner and Coughlin as famous skaters", given she was 17 and he was 22 - basically college freshman and college senior, I see this:
- college age party, people drink, it gets too late to go home. many crash on floor, couches, beds. Boys try to get into girls' pants. Girls push them away, boys stop. Girls may feel imposed on. Boys may feel rejected. Nobody is hurt, just slightly bruised egos and feeling uncomfortable.

The underlying implications of this is one of the creepiest things I've read in a long time. Only John Coughlin climbing into bed and sexually groping a comatose girl exceeds it in creepiness. Who does that? What kind of sick person gropes a comatose person? And it has already been reported that there were circumstances where he didn't stop.

Teenagers/young adults drinking and partying is not and never can be an excuse for teenage boys/men not knowing what is and is not respectful behaviour.

I'm so sick of the victim blaming/excusing I could just about scream.

#metoo

 

[overedge]

I hope the US Figure Skating listened to Ashley and is implementing her suggestions, as well as those of experts in preventing a culture of sexual grooming and abuse.

USFS apparently didn't listen when there were previous complaints about Coughlin's behavior. I hope they're listening this time, but what happened to Ashley might not have happened if they'd taken some meaningful action a long time ago.

 

[skatesindreams]

Ugh!
The story is being reported in the "Daily Fail".

 

[rfisher]

My take on this. Ashley has a right to feel this situation anyway she feels, and to speak about it.

When i read the "circumstances" she is describing, if i take out "Wagner and Coughlin as famous skaters", given she was 17 and he was 22 - basically college freshman and college senior, I see this:
- college age party, people drink, it gets too late to go home. many crash on floor, couches, beds. Boys try to get into girls' pants. Girls push them away, boys stop. Girls may feel imposed on. Boys may feel rejected. Nobody is hurt, just slightly bruised egos and feeling uncomfortable.

Key point: If they are flirting with each other, dancing, or even making out and he whispers let's have sex and she says no, then no one is harmed. If a man crawls into a girl's bed without an invitation and starts groping her, it's an entirely different situation. Ashley clearly described the later and not the former. What he did was assault. Period. I don't think you understand the definition of assault.

 

[CaliSteve]

Nope. They should apologize for supporting and enabling an abuser, and not supporting and believing the other individuals he abused.

Exactly!

 

[VGThuy]

Can anything that certain people don't like be dismissed as "PC" whatever? That's very convenient to use I guess to dismiss things/people and to not have to analyze one's one writing to see how problematic they are, but I don't find it particularly helpful nor do I think it adds anything to a discussion, especially since EVERYTHING is being labeled "PC" just because they don't like it.

 

[VGThuy]

Yeah and now it's a reportable offense. This is one of many behaviors that may have been tolerated for "centuries" that we no longer tolerate. I feel like you're romanticizing a situation and imagining yourself in it. Well, for Ashley and others who lived the reality by this perpetrator, this was not romantic or acceptable and has affected them in many ways and still does. Many victims of sexual assault relate to their feelings about it and their feelings of needing to speak out.

 

[CaliSteve]

I dont think that will happen.

Spoke too soon. Ashley posted an Instagram message from al_rick_sos in her Instagram Story. Pretty disgusting message.

 

[attyfan]

Glad that Ashley is working toward structural change -- she's always been pretty gutsy, and this just proves it again. FWIW, I've read that alcohol can affect perception, increasing the possibility of mistaken identity ... which shouldn't make a difference in the kind of work Ashley is doing. After all, this isn't a criminal trial, but a public debate over changes needed in the sporting world. The worst thing for the up-and-comers is that the USFS tries to act like Coughlin is the only one, so with his death, nothing more is needed.

 

[MsZem]

For centuries there is literature, theatre and cinematographic masterpieces, considered "romantic", which describe a man climbing into girl's window, house, bed, private quarters/space and tries to make love to her... In some cases the girl accepts, in some rejects, in some cases she needs convincing, in some cases she calls the guards, in some cases she plays hard to get, in some cases she "dreamed about the guy" and was waiting for him to make the first step, in some she is married and calls the husband, etc..

I am 100% certain that this type of behavior by a man has been romanticized for a long time. It depends on "presentation"...

It may have been romanticized in the past. As VGThuy noted, now it's criminalized because it's nonconsensual and constitutes sexual assault.

And a lot of what is celebrated and enjoyable in fictional works is completely inappropriate in real life.

 

[ZilphaK]

I completed my SafeSport training a week or so ago so I could teach at a new rink. The activities you mention are explicitly discussed in the training as inappropriate. I believe all coaches have to take this training. Coaches are expected to address/report such behavior, even if it is not illegal. The training also provides many reasons why misconduct is not reported, and says that those who report are usually not making it up. The training was eye-opening for me because we tend to only focus on the criminal aspects, such as sexual assault and coach/student physical relationships. But it goes much deeper than that.

I took the SafeSport training as a volunteer. My daughter took it as a coach.

I know it's generally up to parents/coaches/adults to teach the kids themselves what their rights are, what/when to report -- and we're generally doing a better job empowering kids to speak up after the fact; maybe not quite as far along when it comes to prevention. And I know this is a tricky subject; we can't victim blame, but I think we can educate and empower kids with understanding what situations may be precarious and how to avoid/extract themselves when possible, how to help each other recognize and report, along with stressing that in situations where they are abused or feel uncomfortable or ashamed of what happened, they are never to blame.

I feel like if the skaters themselves went through SafeSport training, we'd have the athletes/kids themselves on board with using the same verbiage, all part of the same culture of recognizing what is OK, what is not OK.

This has worked very well with anti-bullying campaigns in getting the problem out in the open and making the kids themselves part of the conversation and part of the solution. I feel that it's a missing link in the SafeSport conversation.

It will not prevent every situation -- there will always be fearless predators who get around all precautions taken -- and it will not bring all reports to light sooner. But, I think we need to make sure the kids themselves have all the same information the adults have and grow up with the information as part of their sports/activities culture.

(Edits for grammar)