Are Virtue & Moir now the ice dancing GOATs?

Are Virtue & Moir now the best dance team ever

  • yes

    Votes: 148 53.6%
  • no

    Votes: 98 35.5%
  • hard to say, maybe

    Votes: 30 10.9%

  • Total voters
    276

MsZem

Well-Known Member
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16,980
I do think there are some who truly don’t think V/M are GOATS, but in some cases in this thread, it’s obvious
The accusation seems to be made against anyone who suggests that the answer to the title question is "no".

For the record, I haven't ubered any ice dancers in years, and think that trying to determine who's the greatest - even in an objectively measured sport, which ice dance most certainly isn't - is ridiculous.
 
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dramagrrl

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2,028
Okay @dramagrrl that's off-topic but do you ever write a message without the word/lexeme "salt" in it ?
Yes, darling. Over 1,300 of them, if you knew anything about the history of FSU or, you know, took two seconds to look at my posting history. :lol:

The accusation seems to be made against anyone who suggests that the answer to the title question is "no".
If you look at the posting history of almost every poster on this thread who is making constant arguments against V&M, they have either posted only in threads concerning P/C or even if they have posted with slightly more variety, it is obvious they are P/C ubers. One of the major anti-V/M posters on this thread even flat out said in a post that s/he would rank P/C as GOAT over V/M even though they've only really been competing at the top level for four years. There might be two or three posters who genuinely think, for example, that T/D or G/P are GOAT, but the ones who are repeatedly posting against V/M are not those ones.
 
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VGThuy

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36,952
The accusation seems to be made against anyone who suggests that the answer to the title question is "no".

For the record, I haven't ubered any ice dancers in years, and think that trying to determine who's the greatest - even in an objectively measured sport, which ice dance most certainly isn't - is ridiculous.

I think the original post making that statement was fair as it wasn't talking about all people who argued their point because in discussion of GOAT, it's really subjective, but certain people who have posted here have made it obvious why they can't even fathom or even allow people to think V/M are GOATs and it has less to do with V/M and more to do with P/C. I would not say something like that lightly. It got to the point where one poster took offense to another poster for resurrecting this thread when there was a reason to do so with Tanith having a new quote about this topic on Ice Network. Some then took offense to her comment about "facts" like it was that serious.

Just like that comment wasn't supposed to be about everyone who disagreed about V/M being GOATS, I think not all V/M supporters would think everyone who disagreed with them only did so due to ubering other teams. It goes both ways.
 

Judy

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,696
I think the original post making that statement was fair as it wasn't talking about all people who argued their point because in discussion of GOAT, it's really subjective, but certain people who have posted here have made it obvious why they can't even fathom or even allow people to think V/M are GOATs and it has less to do with V/M and more to do with P/C. I would not say something like that lightly. Just like that comment wasn't supposed to be about everyone who disagreed about V/M being GOATS, I think not all V/M supporters would think everyone who disagreed with them only did so due to ubering other teams. It goes both ways.

I have no issue with people having different opinions. Except for the Italians lol.
 

Rossig

Well-Known Member
Messages
186
I think the original post making that statement was fair as it wasn't talking about all people who argued their point because in discussion of GOAT, it's really subjective, but certain people who have posted here have made it obvious why they can't even fathom or even allow people to think V/M are GOATs and it has less to do with V/M and more to do with P/C. I would not say something like that lightly. It got to the point where one poster took offense to another poster for resurrecting this thread when there was a reason to do so with Tanith having a new quote about this topic on Ice Network. Some then took offense to her comment about "facts" like it was that serious.

I wrote about the resurrecting the thread, but if you had read carefully what I wrote you would know it had nothing to do with taking the offence about the resurrecting the thread. It was about drammagrrl taking offence that some people don't agree with the notion that VM are goat.

VM are easily winning this poll. People who believe other teams are goat didn't even get 35% of votes (at the moment when I'm writing this message). Yet, it's not enough for V&M fans. They would only be happy if V&M got 100%. Why can't they understand that not everybody must agree that V&M are the greatest.

Moreover, in order to prove that V&M are the greatest they belittle the achievements of other teams. The fact that T&D revolutionised the ice dance and they had the biggest impact on this discipline of sport or that they were responsible for their own choreography don't count. Because why would ice dance fans care about such insignificant things?
 
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Icetigger

Well-Known Member
Messages
277
There is a case for and against V/M being G.O.A.T.S

The case for mainly hinges on
a, Olympic achievement (of which I find only individual medals relevant) and which in terms of gold is equalled by G/P, and which has to be proviso'ed by the fact they compete in an era where one doesn't have to turn professional..
b, longevity, which explains the additional silver, but which also requires the proviso that they are competing in an era where one doesn't have to turn professional.
c, versatility- i.e. ability to do different styles
d, their having won all major competitions for which they are eligible at both junior and senior level
e, excellence in the short dance

The case against hinges on

a, other couples having won more world titles, including those in a pre-olympic era (eight couples)
b, four other couples having won more grand prix final titles (G/P, N/K, D/W, W/P)
c, their only having won two freedances at Worlds, four years apart. (two less that a current 22/23 year old couple, and significantly less than approximately eight other couples)
d, their only having won six freedances at senior global level which is about a one third of those they are entered, despite being in the era of the G P F.
e, their not having dominated the sport for more than one year at a time, in comparison to a large number of other couples who have dominated the sport for longer periods (nine couples?)
g, D/W having the better competitive record against them, as their main competitors.
h, not self-choreographing
g, limited influence on the sport of ice dance in comparison to other couples, esp. T/D
h, limited influence on the sport of figure skating across all four disciplines in comparison to T/D
i, limited innovation and creativity compared to T/D
i, though their record in the short dance was very excellent, on paper D/W performed better in their longstanding rivalry.
m, being surpassed by both D/W and P/C during both competitive rivalries, taking average scores over a season as a whole.
n, their never having held the freedance WR beyond approximately ten minutes.

IMO, case for most successful Olympic ice dancers is watertight, and also best Canadian Dance team. I think a case for best short dancers/OSP/OD'ers of all time could be made.

Everything else is pretty much off the table including G.O.A.T.

Sorry.

And with regard to being a P/C fan, I don't apologise for that. When looking at qualitative skating and the artistic experience offered, for me they offer an experience equal with T/D, and are the equal best of all time. As previously stated, competitive history or length of competitive history isn't relevant to that judgement. And it's something that can be argued to be borne out by the PCS they have had all season being won average significantly higher than V/M and their highest pcs scores for both the SD and FD being nearly a half a point higher than V/M.

I also certainly don't write off the opinion of someone just because they are a V/M fan, if it's expressed in a convincing, mature and intelligent way.

However if it's a just a screeching tantrum at a perceived heresy against the church of V/M I'm going to ignore it.
 
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Twilight1

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,338
I think that people are personalizing this far too much. Like really, does your life hinge on V&M or T&D being GOAT?

Because if you say it does? You might want to step away from your electronic device and reassess your life.

Just sayin' :scream:
 

dramagrrl

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Messages
2,028
I wrote about the resurrecting the thread, but if you had read carefully what I wrote you would know it had nothing to do with taking the offence about the resurrecting the thread. It was about drammagrrl taking offence that some people don't agree with the notion that VM are goat.

VM are easily winning this poll. People who believe other teams are goat didn't even get 35% of votes (at the moment when I'm writing this message). Yet, it's not enough for V&M fans. They would only be happy if V&M got 100%. Why can't they understand that not everybody must agree that V&M are the greatest.

Moreover, in order to prove that V&M are the greatest they belittle the achievements of other teams. The fact that T&D revolutionised the ice dance and they had the biggest impact on this discipline of sport or that they were responsible for their own choreography don't count. Because why would ice dance fans care about such insignificant things?

1) If you can find any post on this thread where I said I was offended by people not thinking VM are GOAT, please show me. I seriously don’t give a hoot if people think they are GOAT or not. The only thing I think is hilarious is the PC ubers who clearly can’t stand anyone holding the opinion that VM are GOAT and are taking offence to the poll and to other posters’ personal opinions.

2) I even explicitly posted that I respect the argument from anyone who would argue that TD are GOAT. I don’t recall any VM fans on this thread belittling their accomplishments or influence. There was some negativity about GP, but that was mainly the rehashing of “Pasha” and her antics, which tends to come up any time GP are mentioned in any context.
 

starrynight

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Messages
3,001
I feel a bit like Torvill and Dean had the same effect on ice dance as Elvis did on rock n roll.

Torvill and Dean came at the very beginning of ice dance's eligibility as an Olympic sport and had a phenomenal impact. I've known the names Torvill and Dean my entire life - long before I knew what figure skating even was.

And they are still having a big effect, with Christopher Dean choreographing (most recently) Savchenko/Massot's remarkable free skate.

Is it possible to compare any team so young to the huge body of work and legacy that Torvill and Dean have accumulated over a life time? Maybe we should ask the question again in 35 years or so?
 

ximianKernel

Active Member
Messages
93
I feel a bit like Torvill and Dean had the same effect on ice dance as Elvis did on rock n roll.

Torvill and Dean came at the very beginning of ice dance's eligibility as an Olympic sport and had a phenomenal impact. I've known the names Torvill and Dean my entire life - long before I knew what figure skating even was.

And they are still having a big effect, with Christopher Dean choreographing (most recently) Savchenko/Massot's remarkable free skate.

Is it possible to compare any team so young to the huge body of work and legacy that Torvill and Dean have accumulated over a life time? Maybe we should ask the question again in 35 years or so?


All I hear and read about whenever Torvill and Dean were mentioned was their masterpiece Bolero and in lesser degree their Paso Doble. So what other ways have they impacted the sport of figure skating?

Plus you have to distinguish and separate T/D as being a great ice dancer team and Christopher Dean as a great ice choreographer.
 
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kittysk8ts

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,820
I think we should all meet in a parking lot somewhere and fight this out. Haha. I would have to fight myself though because I love all these teams.

As a child of the 70's and 80's with a Scottish Mum, Torvill and Dean were our everything at the time. This influence on my family will never ever be forgotten nor diminished in any way. Mabel and Mack was our fave.

But we all still think V/M are the greatest. And that is ok. And so is YOUR opinion!!!!!!!!
 

chantilly

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,813
Torvill and Dean also did not compete under IJS.
They had way more freedom in construction of their dances and therefore had more time to choreograph.
It’s simply not fair to compare the two eras side by side.
And when V and M emerged, there was loads of talk about how they were innovative by bringing the “dance “ back to ice dance.
Dance had become over the top ridiculous and theatrical for a while.
They had superior technical skills and danced. They didn’t just emote and do moves.
 

Rossig

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Messages
186
And when V and M emerged, there was loads of talk about how they were innovative by bringing the “dance “ back to ice dance.
Dance had become over the top ridiculous and theatrical for a while.
They had superior technical skills and danced. They didn’t just emote and do moves.
\

But that's one of my problems with VM. They are over the top :confused:. I know they are excellent ice dancers and don't doubt their incredible skills. And knowing that I don't understand why they need to overperform so much. Maybe if they toned it down a bit I would enjoy watching them so much more.
 
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kittysk8ts

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1,820
\

But that's one of my problems with VM. They are over the top :confused:. I know they are excellent ice dancers and don't doubt their incredible skills. And knowing that I don't understand why they need to overperform so much. Maybe if they toned it down a bit I would enjoy watching them so much more.
I don't think this unfair. We can't really control how something makes us feel artistically or performance wise, IMHO. I feel the opposite. They excite me. Their exhibition version of Moulin Rouge is even more OTT than the OG version and it REALLY excites me. Haha. I can't change this just to satisfy other people.
 

VGThuy

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Messages
36,952
At the time when they first came out, V/M's style was not seen as OTT or over-performed generally. Now that we live in the P/C and Montreal era and the other team on the podium are the Shibs who cannot be accused of being OTT (except for maybe Alex's faces at times), they are seen as over-performers. It really depends on who ones competition is and how the rest of the field looks.
 

MsZem

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16,980
At the time when they first came out, V/M's style was not seen as OTT or over-performed generally. Now that we live in the P/C and Montreal era and the other team on the podium are the Shibs who cannot be accused of being OTT (except for maybe Alex's faces at times), they are seen as over-performers. It really depends on who ones competition is and how the rest of the field looks.
I think some of it is also the evolution of V/M's style and approach. For me it was over-performing compared to what they'd done in the past, and it really turned me off their skating. Others obviously don't agree, and perhaps see it as versatility or them improving as performers.
 

chantilly

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1,813
I only think V and M can be accused of over performing in the SD this year.
And maybe Scott a little bit in the FD.
When they first emerged no way.
And it’s all subjective.
Sometimes I find Gabby overdoes it in the face.
 

kittysk8ts

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1,820
At the time when they first came out, V/M's style was not seen as OTT or over-performed generally. Now that we live in the P/C and Montreal era and the other team on the podium are the Shibs who cannot be accused of being OTT (except for maybe Alex's faces at times), they are seen as over-performers. It really depends on who ones competition is and how the rest of the field looks.
All true. Also, I personally find Marina's choreo very elegant and more subtle. Generally, of course. LOVE Marina programs.
 

VGThuy

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36,952
I think some of it is also the evolution of V/M's style and approach. For me it was over-performing compared to what they'd done in the past, and it really turned me off their skating. Others obviously don't agree, and perhaps see it as versatility or them improving as performers.

That's very true. Their MR program and even their Sam Smith has been more showy compared to some of their older programs. They were like sort of an evolution of what Carmen was becoming by 2013 Worlds.
 

kittysk8ts

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That's very true. Their MR program and even their Sam Smith has been more showy compared to some of their older programs. They were like sort of an evolution of what Carmen was becoming by 2013 Worlds.
Yes. And they also said they didn't really come back to be the same as they were, that they wanted to try something different and that this evolved out of their 2 years skating in shows.
 

Twilight1

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9,338
They are different performers today than they were 4 years ago, 8 years ago and 12 years ago.

Being more reactive and emoting for a tango is appropriate. In fact, most tangos were the same in over emoting IMHO.

And it is interesting that people are comparing full body of work and not 12-13 years.

I mean it is easy to say T&D are GOATS when they have 15-20 years of age on V&M.

If one compares 9 years of amateur competition... they are far more comparable.

Comparing oranges for oranges if you will...
 
D

Deleted member 74551

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It’s funny, because if you watch various commentators talking about Valse Triste and Umbrellas, it could be commentary from any P/C FD- ‘bringing true dance back’, ‘floating over the ice’ ‘lyrical, ethereal, moving as one’ etc. And while Umbrellas will forever be my favourite program of theirs, I think they’d be getting heavily criticised in a thread like this if they were still performing in a similar way a decade on. I appreciate that they took such a different approach to Moulin Rouge and the Latin SD, though I get why others wouldn’t. But matters of personal taste in performance aside, the quality of their skating can’t be denied.
 

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