American Women Used to Dominate in Figure Skating. What Happened?

[Cleo1782]

Trifun. Trifun Živanović. As easy to remember as it is to spell.

Lol! I knew that. Mental lapse. I totally remember his skating apparently not his name.

 

[vesperholly]

Silvia Fontana was only born in the US, she grew up in Rome.

"My father was in construction, and that’s why I was born in New York, because he had a temporary job building a big sports center in New York City. Then when we moved to Italy he was building a sports center in Rome"

http://www.manleywoman.com/episode-74-sylvia-fontana/

 

[berthesghost]

Trifun and Sydne. Sydne and Trifun. Sydne Sydne Sydne. Trifun Trifun Trifun. Fingers crossed for next time

 

[jenniferlyon]

I would still tend to agree with jenniferlyon that most skaters tend to come from the upper middle class. If not, their families would have to at least be comfortable. For example, the Kwan's mortgaged their home to help pay for Michelle's skating. To do that, they had to own a home to begin with, and not be renters. They also owned a restaurant IIRC. That may not be upper middle class but it's a long ways away from poor.

I would think that poor skaters like Tonya are few and far between.

What is upper middle class anyway, in terms of dollars?

The modest estimate that comes to mind for an elite skater is $50,000 a year. To put that in perspective, Patrick Chan once said his skating cost him $200,000 a year - granted, that figure probably included his mortgages.

One difference with Canadian skaters is they have government health care. U.S. skaters don't. They either have to buy their own, or else they have to work for a company that offers health benefits. I expect they'd have to pay a lot of out-of-pocket expenses if the skater in the family gets injured and requires surgery, rehabs, etc.

So for parents to afford $50,000 per year and still support a family and at least a middle class lifestyle, which I'll guess would take $100,000 per year, they would probably need to be earning at least $150,000 per year - not a whole lot really for two working professional parents.

That sounds about right for the Detroit area. The major rinks here are located in very affluent areas, but a skater's family doesn't necessarily have to live in Bloomfield Hills or Canton. I know from driving to the Detroit Skating Club that if you miss the turn onto Denison Court off Franklin Road, within a block or two you're in Pontiac, which is NOT expensive.

 

[MIsty Blades/Skate Mom]

Is the process for switching countries easy?

Depth isn't necessary to have a champion. There was no depth in Korea but Yuna Kim has gold and silver Olympic medals. It only takes one. Too much intra-country competition will cause some skaters to drop out. If they can't beat the competition while skating for Russia, they won't be able to do it skating for another country.

 

[Spun Silver]

Is the process for switching countries easy?

Only if the skater's original country is willing to let them go. The new country can have tough requirements too. And the ISU has its own rules. So, maybe, maybe not.

 

[jenniferlyon]

Only if the skater's original country is willing to let them go. The new country can have tough requirements too. And the ISU has its own rules. So, maybe, maybe not.

Switching countries for the Olympics is harder than switching countries to skate in other competitions. For the Olympics, the skater actually has to be a citizen of the country for which he/she is competing. This is not the case for Worlds, the Grand Prix series, or other ISU events.

 

[kwanfan1818]

For the Olympics, they also need an IOC exception (with permission of the old NOC) if they've competed in championships for the old country in the first or second year of the Olympic cycle (depending on the timing of the championships). Whereas, as long as they sit out for a year after skating for their old country with permission from the old Fed, it doesn't matter if it's in the first 2.75-3 years of the cycle.

 

[Vagabond]

Trifun and Sydne. Sydne and Trifun. Sydne Sydne Sydne. Trifun Trifun Trifun. Fingers crossed for next time

Brody Tannell.

 

[MIsty Blades/Skate Mom]

There is a Brody Pennell in West LA who does HVAC. Award-winning too!

Brody Tannell.

 

[clairecloutier]

This is so varies based on where you live.

Those figures don't work in California for example. There was a recent article about what it took to "get by" in the Bay Area (where Karen Chen & Vincent Zhou started) for a family of four. I'd say that "gets by" translates to working class. The answer was around $80,000 btw. Crazy! $150,000 here is lower middle class. Upper middle class is more like $250,000 here. I believe COL is slightly cheaper in LA (where many elite skaters train) but not by much.

It's similar in Boston. $150,000 is not a huge income around here for a family of four. $250,000 would be a much more comfortable income, given housing costs, cost of living, etc., but of course many people do not make that.

The other thing is, yeah, you can't forget about taxes. To think a family living on $150K can afford to put $50K toward skating isn't realistic. You lose about a third of that income to taxes and/or deducted payments toward employer-provided health insurance, etc., right off the bat.

 

[Sylvia]

Psst. It's spelled Sydne. (Hey, I'm just the messenger on this one!)

Sylvia was born in NJ but raised in Italy. Her wikipedia page says she started representing Italy in the 93-1994 season which kind of implies she skated for the US before that but that may only mean she skated in local comps.

Psst. Fontana spells her first name Silvia (mine is the better way).

 

[concorde]

Times have changed along with female aspirations. Parents now steer their athletically gifted children into sports that have the potential for college scholarship money. Only the dedicated 1% who can afford it stay in skating post middle school.

By the Novice level, you will know whether your child has a chance to make it to the elite levels. If you know your kid will not make it, would you be willing to continue throwing all that money into the sport or would you force your child to scale back? Me as an ice skating parent, I would say it is time to scale back.

Top girls will skate at the Novice level when they are in middle school which is consistent with the 1% estimate above.

 

[concorde]

It's similar in Boston. $150,000 is not a huge income around here for a family of four. $250,000 would be a much more comfortable income, given housing costs, cost of living, etc., but of course many people do not make that.

The other thing is, yeah, you can't forget about taxes. To think a family living on $150K can afford to put $50K toward skating isn't realistic. You lose about a third of that income to taxes and/or deducted payments toward employer-provided health insurance, etc., right off the bat.

DC is similar cost wise to Boston.

Housing here is a huge cost. When a family purchased their home plays a huge factor in a family's finances.

 

[clairecloutier]

DC is similar cost wise to Boston.

Housing here is a huge cost. When a family purchased their home plays a huge factor in a family's finances.

Yes, it's exactly the same way in Boston. Families who purchased homes before the late 1990s/early 2000s boom are significantly better off, with more disposable income, than those who didn't.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

US Ladies haven't got any worse.

It's just that Russian, Japanese, and South Korean ladies have not only got better, they have a larger talent pool to choose from these days, too.

 

[Jammers]

US Ladies haven't got any worse.

It's just that Russian, Japanese, and South Korean ladies have not only got better, they have a larger talent pool to choose from these days, too.

They have gotten worse though. And other then Yuna South Korean ladies haven't done anything since she retired.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

They have gotten worse though. And other then Yuna South Korean ladies haven't done anything since she retired.

I never said that the Korean ladies medalled. It was that in comparison to Team USA, their results are getting stronger.

Dabin Choi beat the top three ladies at the Olympics, and their juniors regularly beat the US ladies on the Junior Grand Prix Circuit.

 

[manhn]

Bradie Tennel as the reigning US Champ is not the same as Kwan, Cohen, Gold, even Flatt.

Canada's history in ladies is hardly storied, but they seem to be able to be competitive with the ever improving Russians, Japanese and South Koreans.

 

[giselle23]

When Zagitova was 12 1/2 in January when 2015 she only had a 3S, 3T, and an unstable 3Lo she never got positive GOE on... she moved to Eteri and broke her arm/leg in Spring 2015... so she probably finished learning the 3Lz and 3F in Summer 2015 when she was turning 13. She spent the whole season 2015-16 working on 2A+3Lo and then 3Lz+3Lo she always fell or under-rotated until she did a clean 3Lz+3Lo in a May 2016 competition when she was a month from turning 14. Yuna Aoki won't be widely remembered, but I think it was her 3Lz+3Lo that was the impetus for Zagitova to go for for that combo.

Evgenia had all her triples when she was 11.

Kaetlyn Osmond was 14 coming close to turning 15 when in the JGP the only consistent triple she had was a 3T though she would also attempt 3S in competition. When she was 16 at Junior worlds she completely left out the 3Lo and it seems the 3Lz wasn't consistent but she had the rest of the triples except axel and was doing 3T+3T. I may be wrong, but it seems like she doesn't start doing the 3Lo in competition until the 2015-16 season when she was turning 20.



If they lived in Europe, I could maybe understand this... but if they live in America then this is kind of nuts. So much of Eteri's success comes from that she's in a position to select her students. They're better off taking their child to those coaches able to podium on US junior nationals.

The US has a 12 year old skater who has all of her triples (except the axel) and is doing 7 triple programs. She and her contemporaries are the ones to look at for the future of US skating. It's not that grim.

 

[Japanfan]

Those figures don't work in California for example. There was a recent article about what it took to "get by" in the Bay Area (where Karen Chen & Vincent Zhou started) for a family of four. I'd say that "gets by" translates to working class. The answer was around $80,000 btw. Crazy! $150,000 here is lower middle class. Upper middle class is more like $250,000 here. I believe COL is slightly cheaper in LA (where many elite skaters train) but not by much.

But in other parts of the country, $150,000 sound about right for upper-middle-class.

However, you are talking about spending 1/3 of what you earn on skating. You say this is "not a whole lot really" but I think that's a crazy amount of money to be spending on one child's extracurricular activities. When you add in what it costs for a child to feed and clothe them and send them to school, one kid could be spending almost half the family's income!

When I said "not a whole lot really" I was thinking in terms of $50,000 per year for skating out of a household income of $150,000. And that was on average, not specifically for areas with high house prices and high living costs, like the Bay Area. Obviously the cost of having a child in skating, particularly an elite skater, is going to be a lot more in the Bay area than many other parts of the US.

I say this as one who lives in Vancouver BC, which is a very expensive city. A family can get by on $100,000 per year here, I'd say - although to a certain extent how well a family does depends on whether they purchased real estate before prices went nuts. But even so, real estate prices continue to go nuts, so home owners are still winning.

$100,000 per year is a lot more than many households live on. So essentially, being able to have an additional $50K to afford having a child in skating is somewhat a luxury.

But I do agree with you that it is a crazy amount of money. But skating parents are often willing to invest crazy money in their child's future and make huge sacrifices - sometimes it pays off in spades, sometimes more.

OTOH, I'm sure that many a young person who is interested in FS ends up stopping because his/her parents can no longer afford it.

 

[giselle23]

Skaters with a lot of potential get sponsors. The initial outlay is a lot for families but once a skater establishes herself, she gets some financial support, at least.

 

[gkelly]

Skaters with a lot of potential get sponsors. The initial outlay is a lot for families but once a skater establishes herself, she gets some financial support, at least.

Yes, but many skaters who do have a lot of potential but not a lot of money have to quit or scale back their training and expectations long before "establishing herself."

If, e.g., there were money available to fund training for every skater who landing clean 2A at age 12 or younger, the pool at higher levels would remain as deep as it is in juvenile and intermediate. But that's just not how the sport is structured in the US and the money isn't there.

 

[mag]

Yes, but many skaters who do have a lot of potential but not a lot of money have to quit or scale back their training and expectations long before "establishing herself."

If, e.g., there were money available to fund training for every skater who landing clean 2A at age 12 or younger, the pool at higher levels would remain as deep as it is in juvenile and intermediate. But that's just not how the sport is structured in the US and the money isn't there.

In fairness, the pool wouldn’t remain the same. Kids who are landing a clean 2A at age twelve are used to being on the podium and the reality is there are fewer spots as move up and it takes way more work, way more falls, way more pain, to get those spots. Lots of kids just decide that they don’t want to spend their high school years tired, cold, hungry, and in pain in a dark rink. Who can blame them?

 

[giselle23]

Yes, but many skaters who do have a lot of potential but not a lot of money have to quit or scale back their training and expectations long before "establishing herself."

If, e.g., there were money available to fund training for every skater who landing clean 2A at age 12 or younger, the pool at higher levels would remain as deep as it is in juvenile and intermediate. But that's just not how the sport is structured in the US and the money isn't there.

As I said, the parents have to make the initial outlay. The US doesn't need a big pool of skaters to develop a champion. If just a few--even just 2 or 3-- who prove themselves at the national level get help, that is enough. I know Michelle got financial help from a private sponsor--I can't remember who it was.

 

[soogar]

I'm kind of wondering what Jeremy Abbot had when he was a novice that he [and his parents] elected for him to continue spending money on training. His former coach Tom Z said that it took a really long time for Jeremy to get a double axel. Granted girls mature earlier than men but even the guys get jumps at an early age. So if he hung it up, he would have never become a national champion. This is just a random musing about some of the posts that said that people find out quickly whether they have talent or not and that a coach shouldn't encourage a kid to continue [paraphrasing]. He spent a lot of time being "tired, cold, hungry and in pain in a dark rink" before he saw any real success as a junior/senior competitor.

 

[MIsty Blades/Skate Mom]

Moving to the SF Bay Area from the Detroit suburbs was quite a shock. Although my husband took a very lucrative job, I curtailed my spending and went back to work to supplement our income. Before my daughter quit skating, I was prepared to spend my entire salary just to fund my child's lessons, etc.

This is so varies based on where you live.

Those figures don't work in California for example. There was a recent article about what it took to "get by" in the Bay Area (where Karen Chen & Vincent Zhou started) for a family of four. I'd say that "gets by" translates to working class. The answer was around $80,000 btw. Crazy! $150,000 here is lower middle class. Upper middle class is more like $250,000 here. I believe COL is slightly cheaper in LA (where many elite skaters train) but not by much.

But in other parts of the country, $150,000 sound about right for upper-middle-class.

However, you are talking about spending 1/3 of what you earn on skating. You say this is "not a whole lot really" but I think that's a crazy amount of money to be spending on one child's extracurricular activities. When you add in what it costs for a child to feed and clothe them and send them to school, one kid could be spending almost half the family's income!

 

[mag]

I'm kind of wondering what Jeremy Abbot had when he was a novice that he [and his parents] elected for him to continue spending money on training. His former coach Tom Z said that it took a really long time for Jeremy to get a double axel. Granted girls mature earlier than men but even the guys get jumps at an early age. So if he hung it up, he would have never become a national champion. This is just a random musing about some of the posts that said that people find out quickly whether they have talent or not and that a coach shouldn't encourage a kid to continue [paraphrasing]. He spent a lot of time being "tired, cold, hungry and in pain in a dark rink" before he saw any real success as a junior/senior competitor.

And this is why, IMHO, you need to be really careful with early talent identification. Some of the “girls need to have a double axel by twelve and all of their triples by 14” is that the ones who don’t, often get forgotten by coaches and written off by judges and the powers that be. In a sport where people tend to see what they want to see there is a lot of power in being the kid who is selected as “special” early on. Judges and coaches will often overlook flaws in order to keep the chosen kid in the mix. Kids grow and mature at all different rates. What should be judged is what is put out and it shouldn’t matter if the kid is 13 or 18.

 

[LimeyOrange]

You'd rather have 1 OGM, 1 National gold and 1 World gold over 1 OBM & 1 OSM, 9 National golds and 5 World golds?
To each their own...

Yup, people in general put a lot more value on an Olympic Medal, then the do any other competition. Even just applying for a job in a non-athletic field, if someone lists they received an olympic medal, that will get a positive reaction, while a hiring manager isn't going to care if they list they won 5 World golds.

US doesn't need a large figure skating program for the program to produce world class skaters. You only need to produce three good skaters at the world championship level, 3 at the junior world level. For that you need great coaching from a young age.
Now, if you want this to be a popular sport, that's different.

The problem is, if you don't have a large figure skating program, then you will never know who the good skaters are. If you buy 5 lottery tickets, the likelihood of your getting a winning one is slim. If you buy 100 lottery tickets, your changes improve. If you buy a million lottery tickets, your chances dramatically increase. Reality is, many areas of the country do not have easy access to a rink. Unlike a gym and swimming pool, which pretty much every city has (regardless of size), and any sizable city will have multiple options, and probably even public school sponsored teams. So the majority of children never skate. How much talent in never recognized? We can't know, but it's easy to surmise it's a lot. There are no easy answers to fixing the lack of rinks, but this undoubtedly, is one of the biggest reasons, for lack of quality skaters in the US.

In an Ice Network interview, Raf said he does not get the younger skaters because he doesn't say "good job" to everything. You get a "good job" when you have actually done so (per Chen) and it isn't every day. The culture in the US is "make everyone equal in everything." Sports is not equal. There are winners and losers. It is about pushing and working really hard and taking all the advantages or opportunities that are open to you to do the best you can. It is about learning how to lose and using that for motivation. Everyone doesn't get a medal (or ribbon, or win). Children need to learn that, to truly become competitive. Rather than being falsely told that everything they do is wonderful. Say it when it is true, and motivate them to work on the rest.

I completely disagree. Everyone needs encouragement to pursue any activity. I don't think most parents (or children) expect to be told "good job", if they haven't done a "good job." But they DO expect to be told "good effort" or "good improvement", if those are true. To hold off compliments until someone has accomplished something is very discouraging. Participation ribbons, as others have mentioned, are about encouraging children for trying, and to keep working. They are nothing new, I received them in the 80's, and one poster here mentioned they go back even further than that. Not to mention, this is exactly how the real world works--it is why people training on a job receive a paycheck, usually at the same salary as when they have accomplished that job.

You can't be really good at something unless you have put in the work that it takes to get there, and start very early in life.

I disagree with that. Johnny Weir is a prime example, he didn't start skating until he was 12, and was doing a triple axle by age 18. I think the current hyper-competitiveness at young ages is harmful. Many good skaters (and/or their parents) burn out by the enormous time/money commitments. Many young skaters drop out after being injured by way too much exercise on growing bones. Now, some would way Weir is an outlier, but is he really, or he only an outlier because coaches don't take any late start skaters seriously and let them and their parents know that? Especially with females, since puberty can completely change their body type, it makes sense to not start being hyper-competitive until after pubety.

When I said "not a whole lot really" I was thinking in terms of $50,000 per year for skating out of a household income of $150,000. And that was on average, not specifically for areas with high house prices and high living costs, like the Bay Area. Obviously the cost of having a child in skating, particularly an elite skater, is going to be a lot more in the Bay area than many other parts of the US.
I say this as one who lives in Vancouver BC, which is a very expensive city. A family can get by on $100,000 per year here, I'd say - although to a certain extent how well a family does depends on whether they purchased real estate before prices went nuts. But even so, real estate prices continue to go nuts, so home owners are still winning.
$100,000 per year is a lot more than many households live on. So essentially, being able to have an additional $50K to afford having a child in skating is somewhat a luxury.

Yes, but as has been pointed out, someone actually has to make $250,000/yr, to bring home $150,000/hr. Very few families (even with combined spousal income) make that. So, in your example of someone making $150,000 (which is also not likely, as average median income in the US is $60,000....before taxes), then spending $50,000 on the skater, that leaves them $50,000 for the rest of the family (and probably other children who deserve to have their talents and interests nurtured.) Big name coaches, live in high COL areas, so yes, that remaining $50,000 is most likely being stretched in a high COL area. For many families, it is just not doable, especially without short-changing the other children in the faimly. High cost of skating is a huge reason why many children aren't skating.

 

[jlai]

The problem is, if you don't have a large figure skating program, then you will never know who the good skaters are. If you buy 5 lottery tickets, the likelihood of your getting a winning one is slim. If you buy 100 lottery tickets, your changes improve. If you buy a million lottery tickets, your chances dramatically increase. Reality is, many areas of the country do not have easy access to a rink. Unlike a gym and swimming pool, which pretty much every city has (regardless of size), and any sizable city will have multiple options, and probably even public school sponsored teams. So the majority of children never skate. How much talent in never recognized? We can't know, but it's easy to surmise it's a lot. There are no easy answers to fixing the lack of rinks, but this undoubtedly, is one of the biggest reasons, for lack of quality skaters in the US.
.

There are no lack of rinks in the states. We don't need a rink in every freaking town for an elite level program. Back in the 90s, Kwans and Lipinskis emerged and US didn't have a lot more rinks then? Also, if we only care about world and Olympic medals, countries with smaller programs manage to do better, like China in pairs, Canada in ladies. US ice dancing, despite a smaller program, is thriving because of a centralized elite program located in only a handful of locations (e.g. Michigan). All you need to do is identify the super-talented, train them properly, and get them train and compete together. Having more participation helps, but it is lower in priority than getting the talented to the right coach and training. A lot of girls were taught poor jump technique at a young age. Imagine what would have happened if Wagner learned to jump properly and learned to do a good 3/3. She would have multiple world medals by now. And you don't need more participation to identify more Wagners.