American Women Used to Dominate in Figure Skating. What Happened?

[Guinevere]

US freestyle skaters often don't learn how to do proper edges. The moves in the field test track system is insufficient for teaching proper edges: what that system awards more often than not is quickness and power. Look at Evgenia compared to Bradie. Not only can Evgenia jump but she can also skate! The work she has done with Averbukh (I think he works with her) on choreography shows. Bradie jumps just fine but her actual skating skills are comparitively weak for someone who is supposed to be the #1 in the US. The Russian skating schools have always emphasized good edge technique in addition to traditional freestyle elements. Too many US coaches never learned good skating skills themselves and therefore don't know how to teach them.

I would hazard a guess and say the elimination of figures in competitions is also a reason. In North American, it seems that once you can stand, you're taught to jump. Glide, edge control, all those are not taken as seriously as they once were in "figure" skating. You watch the old school skaters (ie. the likes of Scott H., Katia G., Kat Witt, Roz Summers, etc.), they had a great ability to move on the ice, not just jump.

 

[julieann]

I wouldn't put Lipinski on that list. I'd rather have a long constitstant career that maybe doesn't include an Olympic Gold, than a 15th and 1st at Worlds, no GP golds, only one National gold out of three tries and only one Olympic gold. Her career was that stellar in the grand scheme of things. Same with Sarah Hughes.

 

[Wyliefan]

I wouldn't put Lipinski on that list. I'd rather have a long constitstant career that maybe doesn't include an Olympic Gold, than a 15th and 1st at Worlds, no GP golds, only one National gold out of three tries and only one Olympic gold. Her career was that stellar in the grand scheme of things. Same with Sarah Hughes.

National, world, and Olympic gold is pretty darn stellar!

 

[altai_rose]

I wouldn't put Lipinski on that list. I'd rather have a long constitstant career that maybe doesn't include an Olympic Gold, than a 15th and 1st at Worlds, no GP golds, only one National gold out of three tries and only one Olympic gold. Her career was that stellar in the grand scheme of things. Same with Sarah Hughes.

lol, and I’d rather have the career with “only one Olympic gold!”

 

[julieann]

National, world, and Olympic gold is pretty darn stellar!

It's ok, but it's only on one year from Feb 97-98. I'd rather have a career that lasts 5-10+ years with more competitions and more medals. Like Michelle Kwan, she may not have an Olympic gold but in her case I'd rather have her career with bronze and silver than a gold. Much more consistent of a skater and competitor.

 

[VGThuy]

Kind of hard to get excited about every us dance #1 walking into 9.50+ PCS ever since our singles program died and the US needed to medal in *something*.

Look at the rise and fall of Chock and Bates. From 9.50+ PCS and almost winning worlds IN 2015 to... now.

 

[julieann]

lol, and I’d rather have the career with “only one Olympic gold!”

You'd rather have 1 OGM, 1 National gold and 1 World gold over 1 OBM & 1 OSM, 9 National golds and 5 World golds?

To each their own...

 

[kwanfan1818]

Julie Chu!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Chu

 

[overedge]

I would hazard a guess and say the elimination of figures in competitions is also a reason. In North American, it seems that once you can stand, you're taught to jump. Glide, edge control, all those are not taken as seriously as they once were in "figure" skating. You watch the old school skaters (ie. the likes of Scott H., Katia G., Kat Witt, Roz Summers, etc.), they had a great ability to move on the ice, not just jump.

I agree with you about the decline in edge quality among US skaters, but since figures are no longer part of elite international competition, their elimination should be having an equal effect on skaters from all countries.

 

[MacMadame]

That's interesting, given how many kids in the US play football.

Actually, the number of US kids going into football is declining.

And Russians dominated in Ice Dance, but not anymore. What happened?
Sh*te happens. Shrugs.

The US previous had more successful ladies skaters, maybe that was because the self-selection worked better when the sport was less technically demanding?

I don't think so. I think there was a bigger pool at the start. It may not be obvious at the National level because the number of skaters who can advance is limited artificially so it's the same as it's always been. But at the local level, lots of clubs and programs are struggling because the numbers are down.

 

[jlai]

US doesn't need a large figure skating program for the program to produce world class skaters. You only need to produce three good skaters at the world championship level, 3 at the junior world level. For that you need great coaching from a young age.
Now, if you want this to be a popular sport, that's different.

 

[vesperholly]

I agree with you about the decline in edge quality among US skaters, but since figures are no longer part of elite international competition, their elimination should be having an equal effect on skaters from all countries.

Actually, eliminating figures was probably disproportionately better for smaller countries whose skaters struggled to find ice time. Figures required hours of daily training.

 

[overedge]

Actually, eliminating figures was probably disproportionately better for smaller countries whose skaters struggled to find ice time. Figures required hours of daily training.

I know they did. But skaters still had to pass figures tests to qualify for certain levels of competition, so the impact of eliminating figures should have been relatively equal among all the skaters in every country who passed those tests.

 

[vesperholly]

I know they did. But skaters still had to pass figures tests to qualify for certain levels of competition, so the impact of eliminating figures should have been relatively equal among all the skaters in every country who passed those tests.

Not necessarily. Tests are administered at the national level. Spain might not have had a testing system that was as rigorous as the US. The ISU doesn't require you to pass a figures test to compete.

Furthermore, I'm sure any skater who competed at the international level had long since completed any tests that their NGB required them to take. They were practicing for competition, not tests.

 

[gkelly]

I don't think so. I think there was a bigger pool at the start. It may not be obvious at the National level because the number of skaters who can advance is limited artificially so it's the same as it's always been. But at the local level, lots of clubs and programs are struggling because the numbers are down.

And other clubs are struggling because the numbers are too high.

Synchronized skating is very popular where I live, which requires a lot of club resources and supports the existence of many rinks.

But it doesn't produce internationally competitive singles, pairs, or dancers.

Same for solo dance and other programs aimed at retention of recreational skaters and semi-serious competitors.

 

[becca]

I wouldn't put Lipinski on that list. I'd rather have a long constitstant career that maybe doesn't include an Olympic Gold, than a 15th and 1st at Worlds, no GP golds, only one National gold out of three tries and only one Olympic gold. Her career was that stellar in the grand scheme of things. Same with Sarah Hughes.

She has two GPF golds I think that should count. She won every major comp but Four Continents and top US skaters didn't go there.

Not sure what the point is about 5 world titles. Who knows if Kwan would have stayed in that long if she had OGM.

The main thing is it would not be fair to write Tara off as one hit wonder. She beat Kwan plenty of times in her small career.

 

[overedge]

Not necessarily. Tests are administered at the national level. Spain might not have had a testing system that was as rigorous as the US. The ISU doesn't require you to pass a figures test to compete.

Furthermore, I'm sure any skater who competed at the international level had long since completed any tests that their NGB required them to take. They were practicing for competition, not tests.

True, but the figures that were drawn for international competition were pretty high-level figures. So they would have had to maintain a decent level of ability in figures regardless of how long ago they had been tested.

 

[aftershocks]

It's a superficial article that apparently is piggybacking off of some of Lipinski's recent NY Times commentary. Whoever wrote it does not seem like someone who has been closely following figure skating. Whenever the Olympics rolls around we get these types of hot button articles popping up that only skim the surface of what are much more complicated issues than can be adequately understood when they are only superficially examined every four years.

As many posters have already pointed out, developments in figure skating are cyclical and there are a variety of reasons for U.S. ladies not dominating in singles. And there's no reason that they have to be dominating. The balance of power has shifted financially and politically, in addition to many of the other reasons cited here off the top of our heads, as diehard fans of the sport. Most mainstream publications don't even know who most of the skaters are, especially when they are making a number of silly errors in print such as confusing Mao Asada with Mirai Nagasu (like TV Guide)!

Maybe there are some American guys out there who might consider marrying some of Team Eteri's squad, so that Team USA can build their stock. Those girls are machines.

Better yet, check out Eteri's bio, background, upbringing and psychology. What makes her tick. She started skating at age 4 and competed in singles, but she grew too tall and then switched to ice dance. Among other coaches, she's trained with Linichuk and Tarasova, and she's competed with several partners in ice dance. As well, Eteri studied physical education and she has a degree in choreography. She turned to performing in shows after retiring, touring with Ice Capades, and living in the U.S. for six years, where she coached and gave birth to her daughter, Diana. Hand it to her, Eteri is driven, she's unique, she takes no prisoners, and she has a vision that she's dedicated herself to realizing. That's admirable, even though her famous 'baby ballerina' charges are still over-scored on PCS.

... Some connection to the ice--whether as speed skater, hockey, figure skating--should be something all countries should encourage. It's then the fed's job to pick out whether any of these kids can turn out to be elite in a specific ice sport.

Nope, I do not believe it will ever work that way in the United States. A kid has to be motivated and passionate about what they pursue even beyond their actual physical abilities. There are other issues U.S. fed needs to focus on, and I'm quite sure they are not looking to start picking and choosing who supposedly should excel in a specific ice sport.

Even the 1% aren't too keen - Tanith has already said several times that baby White is going to play hockey, not figure skate.

Tanith and Charlie know what they've been through in this sport, and they likely are not eager for their child to experience it, nor to have the burden of trying to reach or surpass their lofty accomplishments. However, I'm sure they would support whatever their child grows up wanting to pursue. It may not even turn out to be athletics. But it's a good thing to expose him to skating, which can be a wonderful recreational pursuit. It doesn't always have to be about competition.

 

[aftershocks]

This slump was to be expected when you think about it if not for the plane crash in 1961 the US women would have medaled at every Olympics for an unprecedented 52 years which not even the Russians have done in Pairs or Ice Dance ...

Possibly, as the loss of Laurence Owen, and so many other skaters and coaches in that tragic 1961 plane crash changed the course of figure skating history. Taking the baton from Carol Heiss, Laurence had the potential to win Olympic gold in 1964.

I'm not certain that it's accurate to say 'this slump was to be expected.' The podium drought is due to a variety of factors that have already been mentioned. Looking at the historical stats is eye-opening: U.S. ladies statistically still hold records for the most number of medals won at Worlds and Olympics. Sonja Henie of Norway holds the record number of individual medals won at Worlds and Olympics among ladies, with 10 World gold medals, 1 World silver medal and 3 Olympic gold medals.

U.S. ladies collectively have accumulated 26 World gold medals, 22 World silver medals, and 24 World bronze medals; added to 7 Olympic gold medals, 8 Olympic silver medals, and 8 Olympic bronze medals.

Ladies from the Soviet Union first broke through to the World podium in 1983 and to the Olympic podium in 1984. They also began winning in juniors, but it took them time to make more inroads. Oksana Baiul of Ukraine heralded a new beginning in 1993 winning gold at Worlds and gold at the Olympics in 1994. Then Irina Sutskaya won her first World medal (bronze) in 1996. The Russian ladies tried to wrest dominance from Michelle Kwan and they battled mightily but Kwan prevailed overall. But the Russians had begun to make their mark. After the reign of Kwan and her battles with Slutskaya, Butryskaya and the rest of the ladies field, the rise of Japanese ladies returned with a vengeance. Let's call it Midori Ito's revenge. Of course, there was also the rise of Kim Yu Na, and Carolina Kostner hung around a lot picking up medals even before she caught up with her talent.

Russia stats: 7 total World gold medals (including that of Ukraine's Oksana Baiul), 8 total World silver medals (combined Soviet Union and Russia), 7 total World bronze medals (combined Soviet Union and Russia); 2 total Olympic gold medals (including Ukraine), 1 Olympic silver medal, 2 total Olympic bronze medals (combined Soviet Union and Russia).

Japan stats: 8 World gold medals, 4 World silver medals, 5 World bronze medals; 1 Olympic gold medal, 2 Olympic silver medals, 0 bronze (although they have a chance to add a bronze from this Olympics -- we'll find out shortly).

Additional historical ladies record medal dominance from other countries (aside from the singlehanded feats by Norway's Henie) include: Austria (17 World silver medals and 12 World bronze medals, 2 OGM - 4 OSM - 1 OBM); Great Britain (9 World silver medals and 7 World bronze medals, 2 OGM - 1 OSM - 3 OBM); East Germany (9 World gold medals, 8 World silver medals, 2 World bronze medals, 3 OGM - 1 OSM - 1 OBM). West Germany also has a few Worlds and Olympic medals in ladies (variously from Gundi Busch, Claudia Leistner, Dagmar Lurz, & Tanja Szewczenko, which I haven't combined with East Germany's stats).

 

[dramagrrl]

The main thing is it would not be fair to write Tara off as one hit wonder. She beat Kwan plenty of times in her small career.

"Plenty" of times?? Exactly four, if I am not forgetting something major. 97 Nationals, 96-97 Champion Series final, 97 Worlds, 98 Olympics. Three of those wins were in a time span of about four months during which Kwan was struggling hardcore and Tara was carrying rolling momentum, and in only one of the four wins over Michelle did she manage to win both portions of the competition en route to the title (Champion Series final). She was second to Kwan in the SP at 97 Nationals, second to Kwan in the LP at 97 Worlds, and second to Kwan in the SP at 98 Olys. Meanwhile, in the events during the same time period that Kwan beat Lipinski, she basically trounced her in both segments of the competition and it wasn't even close (97 Skate America and 98 Nationals).

So yes, I would personally still definitely write Lipinski off, not as a "one-hit" wonder perhaps, but as pretty much a one-season wonder for sure. Hughes, to me, had a stronger career because she was able to gain success over time and showed that she had more longevity than one year.

 

[Spun Silver]

Wrong thread, sorry.

 

[casken]

Whelp.

 

[NadineWhite]

To me it's cyclic. The Americans dominated for generations, decades, but now their time is over (has been for a while since 2006). It happens (same thing with the Russians; they used to dominate ice dance forever, not anymore, but now they finally dominate in ladies).

It just takes time, lots of time, lol. Hopefully by the next Olympics we'll have a contender. And if not, then the next Olympics, and the next...

 

[Gazpacho]

Could one factor be the number of households in which both parents work? Skating seems to require a super dedicated parent to take them to practices, dance class, conditioning, etc. Yet if one parent were to not work, it's very difficult to pay for skating. It's impossible for most households even with two incomes.

Even if my child were super talented, becoming an international level figure skater would be out of the question due to the financial and time commitment required of the parents.

 

[Bellanca]

Considering the depth and talent now enjoyed by other countries, it is not a surprise that the U.S.A. is not on the top of (or even on) the podium itself, at this time. The world, in general, is a whole lot more competitive than they used to be. If you look at who finished 1 through 6 in the ladies' event yesterday, it should not be too shocking at all that the U.S.A. is rounding out the first dozen skaters. No one realistically expected the U.S.A. ladies to be podium threats, anyway - and that is exactly what has happened, despite a last-minute push by some in the industry/media to suggest Mirai could slip in there for the bronze. The silver lining is that it could have been worse for them, but it wasn’t.

 

[KimGOAT]

Well one thing that happened is the rest of the World improved. I highly doubt Kwan, Yamaguchi, Hamill or any of the past Americans you could deem to arguably have "dominated" would have any kind of dominance if the Asians and Russians were as strong as they have been the last 10 years. Success sure, some victories and numerous medals, maybe/probably, but dominance, no freaking way.

The Russians have never been close to as strong as they have been the past 5/6 years, not even in the Slutskaya/ Butyrskaya days which were their previous top period, but these days there are atleast a half dozen girls as good or better as Slutskaya ever was (even considering the era) and a couple dozen as good or better than Butyrskaya, Ivanova, and the next best Russians historically before the last couple generations came to prominance. Asia meanwhile produced the odd great, most notably Midori Ito, but nothing like what they have produced the last 10 years with 2 of the all time best in Yu Na Kim and Mao Asada, an Oly and World Champ in Shizuka, a multi World Champ Miki Ando, and a good dozen very good medal caliber contending skaters behind them. It used to be their best was a Sato or Suguri type, but there are tons in Japan alone that are atleast that caliber, and usually atleast a couple much better, at any given point now.

Of course the American girls themselves are weaker too. To that part I am sure not why exactly. But their competition got a lot stronger, that is clear. Apart from Germany which has gotten a lot weaker really since the end of the Witt days, but beyond that much stronger.

 

[KimGOAT]

As for whose career I would prefer, I would actually prefer a career like Lipinski that not only won the Olympics, but won EVERYTHING- Olympics, Worlds, Nationals, Grand Prix final, over a career that didnt include an Olympic Gold. Now someone like Sarah Hughes or Sotnikova who never won Worlds, Grand Prix final, or in Hughes's case even her own Nationals, that is a different story. Lipinski though I would take over anyone who is missing the Olympic Gold or missing any of the important titles, be that Kwan, Asada, Medvedeva (so far) or whoever else.

Now someone like Yu Na Kim who also won all the big events, but did better at them all than Tara, I would take over Tara clearly however.

 

[her grace]

Kind of hard to get excited about every us dance #1 walking into 9.50+ PCS ever since our singles program died and the US needed to medal in *something*.

Look at the rise and fall of Chock and Bates. From 9.50+ PCS and almost winning worlds IN 2015 to... now.

Really? Chock/Bates' rise and fall had more to do with retirements, a change in what is valued in dance, and their own mistakes. They were 7th at 2013 worlds, and then rose to 5th at 2014 worlds. The difference? Virtue/Moir and Davis/White retired. They stayed behind all the previous teams ahead of them, except Russia switched horses so they lost to I/K rather than B/S. Of the 4 teams ahead of them in 2014, one retired (P/B) and one split (I/K). So Chock/Bates were ostensibly third-best coming into the 2014-2015 season and they ended up on the podium. Not shocking. Not the U.S. needing to medal in something. Chock/Bates' acrobatic style and impressive lifts were valued more at the beginning of the quad. Then Papadakis/Cizeron take the world by storm and flow and edge quality become the focus. Chock/Bates don't really fit that picture, plus they made major errors at important competitions, plus the Shibs re-emerged, and Hubbell/Donohue better fit the current "in" trends = the U.S. pushed other teams. But all of the U.S. teams aren't walking into 9.5 PCS. They are among the very best dancers in the world and they have put in years of work to get there.

 

[tony]

She has two GPF golds I think that should count. She won every major comp but Four Continents and top US skaters didn't go there.

Hard to go to an event that wasn't even created until the year after Lipinski retired from competition

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

In North American, it seems that once you can stand, you're taught to jump. Glide, edge control, all those are not taken as seriously as they once were in "figure" skating.

Rectification : In the USA...