American Women Used to Dominate in Figure Skating. What Happened?
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mag
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Don’t kid yourself, this happens a lot in Canada as well.
ChiquitaBanana
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At least the top coaches (-Joanne Mcload) are keen on edges work and top Canadian skaters have great skating skills. It's our trademark. We can suck at jumps but we sure can skate. And I know what is going in Canada.
DreamSkates
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In an Ice Network interview, Raf said he does not get the younger skaters because he doesn't say "good job" to everything. You get a "good job" when you have actually done so (per Chen) and it isn't every day. The culture in the US is "make everyone equal in everything." Sports is not equal. There are winners and losers. It is about pushing and working really hard and taking all the advantages or opportunities that are open to you to do the best you can. It is about learning how to lose and using that for motivation. Everyone doesn't get a medal (or ribbon, or win). Children need to learn that, to truly become competitive. Rather than being falsely told that everything they do is wonderful. Say it when it is true, and motivate them to work on the rest.
Anyone watch the auditions for American Idol? How many said their parents/friends told them they were wonderful singers, but obviously lacked quite a bit when it came to being musical. That is crushing for a person who is in their 20's not to have learned by then what their talents are. You can't be really good at something just because you like it so much. You can't be really good at something unless you have put in the work that it takes to get there, and start very early in life.
Anyone watch the auditions for American Idol? How many said their parents/friends told them they were wonderful singers, but obviously lacked quite a bit when it came to being musical. That is crushing for a person who is in their 20's not to have learned by then what their talents are. You can't be really good at something just because you like it so much. You can't be really good at something unless you have put in the work that it takes to get there, and start very early in life.
kwanfan1818
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I don't see what the problem is in the much-aligned universal token of participation. Even small children know the difference between that and the trophy or the medal. If they're happy with the ribbon, they're happy with the ribbon, but that doesn't mean they don't know the difference between the ribbon and the trophy. If they are motivated by the trophy, then they'll work for the trophy.
I think one big problem is that whenever someone was great promise emerges they stick the "next Kwan" moniker and expectation on her. This is ridiculous, it is pressure that even Kwan herself didnt have to deal with, as she came up at a time Kerrigan, Harding, Bobek were all there, and then had Tara emerge to share the spotlight with too. One example of someone who IMO was ruined by this was Gracie Gold. From day 1 the pressure was insane, there was even talk of twisting the rules to send her to Senior Worlds when she won the National junior title in 2012. When she turned senior Americans expected her to immediately win everything. When she didnt live up to that the pressure just racheted up. IMO it was a big part of her inability to ever deliver in a big event and her eventual implosion to depression, anxiety attacks, and leaving the sport altogether. I fear they will do that with the next such skater who emerges.
Another problem is they in some cases overhype young pixies with clear flaws in their skating, such as Caroline Zhang. They get far too pushed and overscored early, Zhang was getting higher junior scores than Kim and Asada had gotten for instance, despite significantly more flaws in her skating. As such they get a deluded sense of reality, and dont realize what they have to work on, until bad habits are already ingrained, and to some extent it is too late. Part of that is Sasha Cohen who was an example of a skater who worked under 6.0 as while she had some murderous flaws as far as jump technique, basic edging quality, etc...she compensated by some extraordinary strengths. Caroline in a way was like Sasha in that sense, except that IJS is different, and you no longer can get by with shoddy edges, poor jump technique, taking off on improper edges, underrotated jumps (granted that one doesnt apply to Cohen so much) just because you are super flexible, have great spins and spirals, and so beautiful and musical on the ice. It just doesnt work anymore.
Another problem is they in some cases overhype young pixies with clear flaws in their skating, such as Caroline Zhang. They get far too pushed and overscored early, Zhang was getting higher junior scores than Kim and Asada had gotten for instance, despite significantly more flaws in her skating. As such they get a deluded sense of reality, and dont realize what they have to work on, until bad habits are already ingrained, and to some extent it is too late. Part of that is Sasha Cohen who was an example of a skater who worked under 6.0 as while she had some murderous flaws as far as jump technique, basic edging quality, etc...she compensated by some extraordinary strengths. Caroline in a way was like Sasha in that sense, except that IJS is different, and you no longer can get by with shoddy edges, poor jump technique, taking off on improper edges, underrotated jumps (granted that one doesnt apply to Cohen so much) just because you are super flexible, have great spins and spirals, and so beautiful and musical on the ice. It just doesnt work anymore.
I think children know the difference, but the point is that they are receiving recognition for achieving nothing. Unless just showing up is now an achievement worthy of a prize? The thing is, losing is real and children need to learn to accept and deal with losing. Trying to soften the blow by giving everyone recognition just for showing up doesn't help in the long run. When you see adults lose for the first time in their lives, it isn't pretty. Not everyone can be a winner, not everyone is beautiful, not everyone is smart, not everyone has special talents, not everyone is popular, and not everyone is going to be a celebrity. But it's what you do in the face of learning those lessons that determines your character and ultimately will determine your ability to achieve future happiness.
kwanfan1818
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Participation recognition tokens are hardly a new invention. They don't mean that the recipient has a special talent or that the recipient "just" showed up. They mean that the recipient participated.
Did Carolina Kostner "just" show up to the Olympics? (And as a top six finisher at the Olympics, she'll receive a certificate.) Did Loena Hendrickx "just" show up to the Olympics?
millyskate
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Yes, and it's maybe a specificity of the US system that it relies on talent and ability to pay coinciding for success. I somehow can't imagine that Eteri or Mishin select their training groups based on anything but raw talent. If they see the ability is there, they will want the skater in their group.
I have one student who is a (juvenile) competitive figure skater. I have at least eight students who've achieved Level 8 or Level 9 in gymnastics. Two of the gymnasts switched to diving and both ended up with major college options as a result.
We've been seeing boys veer away from football for a couple of years now. The smaller public high school up the mountain from me just dropped football for next year because of lack of interest. Soccer is still going great guns. So is lacrosse, and for girls, swimming. Just anecdotal experience, but we do have a big rink complex in one of our adjoining communities with an active USFSA club as well as a number of other rinks.
We've been seeing boys veer away from football for a couple of years now. The smaller public high school up the mountain from me just dropped football for next year because of lack of interest. Soccer is still going great guns. So is lacrosse, and for girls, swimming. Just anecdotal experience, but we do have a big rink complex in one of our adjoining communities with an active USFSA club as well as a number of other rinks.
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MacMadame
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First of all, actually showing up is about 50% of life. You'd be surprised how many people haven't mastered it. Secondly, that's not what a participation ribbon/trophy/certificate is about. It's about showing up and doing the work. Third, it's not a prize but a memento. The point of it is to remind you of what you did.
My kids had a number of trophies and certificates over the years. Sometimes they were for being "the best" and sometimes they were for "just" participating. They absolutely know the difference. And they know how to lose too. There are many opportunities in life to lose even for kids. You can't get to the age of 18 without having lost something. A part in a play you wanted, a test you wanted to get an A on but didn't, getting to sectionals from regionals (or whatever the equivalent is in your sport), a violin scholarship or being 1st chair, being picked last for a team, etc.
So there is no need to take away kids' mementos because you happen to know some adults who suck at losing.
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Cachoo
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I think these days, with plenty of interest in Asia and Russia in the ladies discipline, North America should not expect much unless the cost of becoming a world class figure skater is donated and not solely up to mom and dad. Kaetlyn and Gabbie and even Gracie might be the end of an era with few following to take their place.
Cachoo
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After the big three in Canada who is there?
mag
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After the big two in Canada who is there?
Barbara Manatee
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Charlie White said this exact thing not long ago. That getting those ribbons encouraged him to keep putting in the work to get better. Even as a child he knew they weren't about winning but about rewarding the effort that could lead to winning some day. Seems like it worked.
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Foolhardy Ham Lint
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Here's hoping with her medal, that Kaetlyn earns some nice endorsements from this.
Alina mentioned she hopes skating helps her family.
I’m trying to remember the exact figure, but I remember that in Sochi each Russian gold medalist was promised a bonus. Yes, the games were in Russia, but I’m pretty sure that they normally do things like this
I think it is also talented kids get help with training costs.
But we were discussing participation gifts to children, not to athletes who have devoted their entire lives to becoming their countries' best in a sport. Of course Kostner didn't "just" show up to the Olympics, though she certainly could have skated better (and would then be going home with more than a certificate). And I think you are choosing to read into my use of "show up" a negative connotation that I didn't intend. I thought it was obvious that I meant "actually do something that wasn't good enough to win," not literally do nothing except appear.
Maybe a better question would be: what is the purpose of the rise of distributing participation awards? This wasn't a thing when I was a child. If the purpose is to more or less to give a party favor or token of appreciation to kids, then fine, thanks for coming and please come back. But if the purpose is to make kids who didn't win feel less bad about not winning (or not doing well enough to place top 3 or whatever the reward structure is), then that I think is not constructive to creating champions - the "you didn't win, but not winning is actually just as good because we're ALL winners" mindset, in particular.
kwanfan1818
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I got participation acknowledgements 55+ years ago. Mostly certificates and ribbons. It meant that participating was worth something in itself, even if the trophy wasn't a possibility. Which I think is as important a lesson in life as "If you don't get the trophy, you're a loser."
overedge
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Sometimes it is the kids whose parents are best at playing politics within the sport, rather than the kids who would most benefit from the $$$. "Talented" can be a very subjective assessment.
When you think about it logically, it doesn't make sense for kids to go into skating especially singles skating.
$60k a year even at non-elite level
No college scholarships
Enormous amount of parental dedication to take kids to practice, extra lessons, possibly home school
Higher probability for eating disorders and unhealthy body image than most other sports
No life lessons from playing on a team
$60k a year even at non-elite level
No college scholarships
Enormous amount of parental dedication to take kids to practice, extra lessons, possibly home school
Higher probability for eating disorders and unhealthy body image than most other sports
No life lessons from playing on a team
MacMadame
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This one I disagree with. Sure, you don't get the team life lessons unless you do synchro but there are plenty of life lessons to be learned in any sport even individual ones.
manhn
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All of this participation trophy talk is ridic. The USA dominates the Summer Games and their ice dancer are strong. What, the Shibs never got a participation trophy? Michael Phelps never got a ribbon?
I will say this, the US more than any other country really really really takes their Nationals seriously. I think being the best in the US is better than medaling at an international competition, in terms of prestige and sponsors. That may readjust the competitive mindset of the athletes.
I will say this, the US more than any other country really really really takes their Nationals seriously. I think being the best in the US is better than medaling at an international competition, in terms of prestige and sponsors. That may readjust the competitive mindset of the athletes.
ChiquitaBanana
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manhn
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And how is edge work not a priority when the US has a strong contingent of ice dance teams?