American Women Used to Dominate in Figure Skating. What Happened?

[ninjapirate]

When I started skating in 93, the conventional wisdom was that you had to get at least one triple by 12 if you wanted to get all your triples. Now they are saying you have to get them all by 12. I am just not that convinced this is as true as people think it is.

When Zagitova was 12 1/2 in January when 2015 she only had a 3S, 3T, and an unstable 3Lo she never got positive GOE on... she moved to Eteri and broke her arm/leg in Spring 2015... so she probably finished learning the 3Lz and 3F in Summer 2015 when she was turning 13. She spent the whole season 2015-16 working on 2A+3Lo and then 3Lz+3Lo she always fell or under-rotated until she did a clean 3Lz+3Lo in a May 2016 competition when she was a month from turning 14. Yuna Aoki won't be widely remembered, but I think it was her 3Lz+3Lo that was the impetus for Zagitova to go for for that combo.

Evgenia had all her triples when she was 11.

Kaetlyn Osmond was 14 coming close to turning 15 when in the JGP the only consistent triple she had was a 3T though she would also attempt 3S in competition. When she was 16 at Junior worlds she completely left out the 3Lo and it seems the 3Lz wasn't consistent but she had the rest of the triples except axel and was doing 3T+3T. I may be wrong, but it seems like she doesn't start doing the 3Lo in competition until the 2015-16 season when she was turning 20.

An ice mom at my ice rink is sending her daughter to Eteri this summer as well. The girl is 9 and has all doubles. When I asked her about the cost she did not reply, I assume it's very high. But yeah... people will send their girls to Eteri nevertheless.

If they lived in Europe, I could maybe understand this... but if they live in America then this is kind of nuts. So much of Eteri's success comes from that she's in a position to select her students. They're better off taking their child to those coaches able to podium on US junior nationals.

 

[Meoima]

If they lived in Europe, I could maybe understand this... but if they live in America then this is kind of nuts. So much of Eteri's success comes from that she's in a position to select her students. They're better off taking their child to those coaches able to podium on US junior nationals.

we live in East Asia.

 

[Yazmeen]

New article: http://www.espn.com/espnw/culture/f...an-women-failing-medal-olympic-figure-skating

 

[VGThuy]

I know the big focus right now is getting the jumps to compete with Russia and Japan because jump point totals do add up. I do wish they spoke about why American ladies seemed more underpowered or lacking in skating skills and transitions compared to their Russian and Japanese counterparts (and Osmond and Daleman).

 

[Sylvia]

New article: http://www.espn.com/espnw/culture/f...an-women-failing-medal-olympic-figure-skating

I also posted this article on the previous page of this thread yesterday with excerpts -- link: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...ting-what-happened.103460/page-8#post-5318755

 

[topaz]

Completely Agree @VIETgrlTerifa .
Ashley Wagner commented during the ladies FS/SP on how incredible Kaori's skating is - power, edges and jumps. Kaori performance quality has not really been called upon yet either.
I adore the Japanese ladies, I have for many years. I have had some favorite US ladies over the years but when I watch ladies, I really enjoy the Japanese ladies.

Also, the young Japanese ladies are really ahead of the upcoming US ladies and all have the skills to be on the scene for long time. I see Marin Honda, Wakaba Higuchi(my favorite of the youngsters), Rika K(3axel and 3axel/3toe combo), Kaori Sakamoto are going to be on the scene for a while in my opinion.
So the US is going to be playing catch up for at least 8 years in my opinion.
Right now, I think they need to concentrate on Starr Andrew who has the potential for being a “Star”. She needs to work on her skating skills, extension but she has musicality and performance ability. Also, she has individuality and USFSA need to develop more “individuality” in their ladies. I see that as a big factor with looking at the programs between the US ladies compared to the Japanese and Russian skaters. The Young Russian ladies are all doing the same elements but their programs appear to showcase their personalities better, ie. Anastasia Tarakanova(who skates with abandonment, strong skills, strong spinner and intense on the ice), Stanislava Konstantinova, Alena Kostornaia, Anastasiia Gubanova.

Also, I missed a few Russian junior too. Also, some of these Russian youngsters won’t make the world team nor GP Final. Some should consider looking at skating for other countries.

 

[Yazmeen]

I also posted this article on the previous page of this thread yesterday with excerpts -- link: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...ting-what-happened.103460/page-8#post-5318755

Sorry, missed that.

 

[olympic]

In the ESPN article, FS Spokesperson Barbara Reichert notes rising membership in US figure skating. Does that mean skaters?

 

[MacMadame]

triple triples. The article said You have to have triples by age 12 so you can start on triple triples to be ready for jpg by 14.

I think Kristi has one 3-3 but didn’t use it very often.

Didn't she have 3Z-3T? That's pretty impressive. And even Amber Corwin (who was not in the hunt for medals at Worlds) had a 3T-3T even if it was not the best form.

I think most of those few ladies who had 4 or more triples in 1992 were trying at least 1 triple at age 12, but they had been novices or juniors at 12 so we don't have many videos or documentation of what they were doing.

I meant to say 5 triples. (Corrected above)

Most 12-year-olds in the immediate post-figures era who would later go on to glory didn't have all triples yet, but they did have some at 12 and usually all they were going to get by 15 or 16, often by 14.
[snip]
I think that is probably still more or less true. But if top skaters now are doing multiple triple-triples plus level 4 spins and steps, then the earlier a skater gets triples the sooner she can start working on the combinations.

But it also means a lot of skaters having great success as Juniors and then losing it all when they are older and their body changes. How is that the way to go?

I think that getting your 3T and 3S by 12, maybe the 3F or 3L as well and then the rest by 14-15 is reasonable. Maybe these kids won't be tearing up the JGP but they should be fine for Seniors. The push to get the triples by younger and younger ages is not good for young bodies IMO. And it will not lead to long-term success in the sport.

 

[BittyBug]

In the ESPN article, FS Spokesperson Barbara Reichert notes rising membership in US figure skating. Does that mean skaters?

Not necessarily. Some clubs require all members of a family to register with USFS to get their representation numbers up (the # of delegates a Club receives to attend Governing Council is based on membership numbers), but I'm sure there are plenty of members who are parents and siblings of skaters rather than skaters themselves.

ETA: Membership numbers will also include people who skate but are not on an Olympic track (adults, synchro skaters, learn to skate tots, etc.).

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

But it also means a lot of skaters having great success as Juniors and then losing it all when they are older and their body changes. How is that the way to go?

I think that getting your 3T and 3S by 12, maybe the 3F or 3L as well and then the rest by 14-15 is reasonable. Maybe these kids won't be tearing up the JGP but they should be fine for Seniors. The push to get the triples by younger and younger ages is not good for young bodies IMO. And it will not lead to long-term success in the sport.

I totally agree. It has been studied in and out that success as a junior does not guarantee success as a senior. A new body, natural physical aptitudes developped later on... It all has an impact.

BTW, Joannie Rochette started landing triple flips by 14.

 

[gkelly]

I meant to say 5 triples. (Corrected above)

So how many skaters can we name who had landed 5 different triples in competition (not necessarily the same competition) as of the end of the 1992 season?

The number started growing significantly in 1993 and 94 and even moreso in 1995 and beyond, as figures-era skaters retired and juniors who had focused more on jumps than on figures moved up to seniors, and the short program started to allow and reward more triples.

But it also means a lot of skaters having great success as Juniors and then losing it all when they are older and their body changes. How is that the way to go?

It does, but that has always been the case. Almost all the skaters who were considered strong jumpers for their era had all or most of their jumps before they were 15 1/2 (i.e., old enough for seniors under current rules).

There were always some skaters who lost jumps later in their careers that they were landing earlier, or struggling more with jumps later in their teens than they had in early teens.

If they were at or near elite levels, we may know who they were. Those who never made it to senior or even junior competition, or never made it to national or international competition at those levels, would be even less well known.

The skaters who won senior medals and have remained well known to skating fans are a much smaller sample size. Those are the ones who succeeded. And most of those were doing multiple triples in their early teens.

Did they succeed while others dropped by the wayside because of better genetics or better training methods or better luck? Probably all of the above. But waiting for later teens to learn the jumps was generally not a successful strategy.

From the point of view of a federation developing a deep field of many skaters who will be able to keep up with the top jumpers in the rest of the world, encouraging mastering the triples early is probably the way to go. Many skaters who jump many triples as preteens and young teens will lose those jumps and maybe their careers to injury and natural body changes.

Federation officials as human beings might (should) care about the long-term physical and emotional cost to those individuals, but the federation in its team-building function would mainly be interested in how many skaters survive the process to become competitive seniors.

From the point of view of individual skaters, is it better for a skater to try to get the jumps early and risk serious injury in childhood but have a better chance of mastering them at all, with the knowledge that even without injury the jumps may no longer work for her after physical maturation? Or wait to push her jump content with the recognition that waiting makes it less likely to master the jumps and have hope for an international career at all, but with a wiser understanding of the physical risks when she does try them?

From the point of view of heartbreak, is it better to have tripled (or, these days, triple-tripled) and lost than never to have tripled at all?

Is that a decision we want to leave to 12-year-olds and their parents, or should coaches or officials and rule-makers with a more comprehensive understanding of the risks and rewards set policies for all?

I think that getting your 3T and 3S by 12, maybe the 3F or 3L as well and then the rest by 14-15 is reasonable. Maybe these kids won't be tearing up the JGP but they should be fine for Seniors.

Yes, probably. In a competitive field where they need to get their federation's attention by 13 to get junior international experience at all, it may be a strategic mistake to wait if they want to aim for the top. If they can develop all their non-jump skills beyond what the junior jumpers are doing, they'd be better positioned to hold their own with moderately high jump content as some of the junior jumpers of their cohort lose some of their jumping prowess or leave the sport entirely.

In smaller federations, they could bide their time with moderate results in juniors and outlast the flashes in the pan from larger countries.

 

[Ohyes]

Skating is a lot more expensive in the states now, USFSA puts their eggs in one basket by pinning hopes on one lady and the level of difficulty that the ladies are only just starting to address now which should have been addressed years ago.

 

[MacMadame]

From the point of view of heartbreak, is it better to have tripled (or, these days, triple-tripled) and lost than never to have tripled at all?

Based on my own observations of athletes, better to never have tripled at all. One of the hardest things for athletes is dealing with the loss of what they used to be able to do. It messes with your mind.

Is that a decision we want to leave to 12-year-olds and their parents, or should coaches or officials and rule-makers with a more comprehensive understanding of the risks and rewards set policies for all?

I assume this is rhetorical. Of course, the sport should set these policies and they should be geared towards protecting children. Whether they will do it or not remains to be seen.

USFSA puts their eggs in one basket by pinning hopes on one lady

Show me how they only put one US Ladies skater in the Team Envelops and only sent one US Ladies skater to international events.

 

[Ohyes]

Based on my own observations of athletes, better to never have tripled at all. One of the hardest things for athletes is dealing with the loss of what they used to be able to do. It messes with your mind.


I assume this is rhetorical. Of course, the sport should set these policies and they should be geared towards protecting children. Whether they will do it or not remains to be seen.


Show me how they only put one US Ladies skater in the Team Envelops and only sent one US Ladies skater to international events.

The media us coverage I mean along with the federation. They kept pushing Gracie gold while ignoring every other promising us lady in the media. The pressure got to her and she failed to deliver in the long run. Why the rolling eye emoji? You seem awfully defensive.

 

[MacMadame]

The media us coverage I mean along with the federation. They kept pushing Gracie gold while ignoring every other promising us lady in the media. The pressure got to her and she failed to deliver in the long run.

So I guess I imagined all those articles and interviews with Ashley and the other Ladies skaters then.

Not to mention, USFS has limited control over who the media pushes. You can't judge what they think based on what the media does.

Why the rolling eye emoji? You seem awfully defensive.

Says the person who can't let a little side-eye slide.

 

[manhn]

This past quad, the US did have Gracie and Ashley as their top two ladies. Ashley did get a silver medal in 2016, and while Gracie never achieved what was hoped for by so many, I personally never felt that USFSA put more pressure on Gracie than SC does on Kaetlyn, or the Japan Fed does on Satoko, or the Russian Fed does on any of their elite female skaters. It was just a matter of circumstance. So, at least with this past quad, USFSA seemed to have had a bit of bad luck in terms of timing.

But going forward, USFSA is in a bit of a disarray. But their men are strong. They have a good number of skaters who may not have the hardest jumps but are deemed artistic. And they have skaters who are capable of the hardest jumps. I mean, you would think the men would face the same social issues (money, college aspirations, competition with other sports, etc) that the women experience.

 

[berthesghost]

The media us coverage I mean along with the federation. They kept pushing Gracie gold while ignoring every other promising us lady in the media. The pressure got to her and she failed to deliver in the long run. Why the rolling eye emoji? You seem awfully defensive.

oh. I thought for sure you meant Linda Fratianne. but seriously I’m not sure what you meant. It’s been like revolving door of also-ran ladies ever since Kwan retired a decade ago. Gracie only went to like 4 worlds and considering how she skated at nats compared to the others, I don’t think she was held up.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

When you think about it logically, it doesn't make sense for kids to go into skating especially singles skating.

$60k a year even at non-elite level
No college scholarships
Enormous amount of parental dedication to take kids to practice, extra lessons, possibly home school
Higher probability for eating disorders and unhealthy body image than most other sports
No life lessons from playing on a team

Didn't Mirai get some kind of scholarship or stipend as long as she skated for her college? I could be remembering wrong but I do recall she won some college figure skating title some years ago and said something along those lines.

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

I personally never felt that USFSA put more pressure on Gracie than SC does on Kaetlyn, or the Japan Fed does on Satoko, or the Russian Fed does on any of their elite female skaters
.

What has helped Osmond in the last quad was losing the national title twice, swapping it between Daleman and Chartrand. I guess that helped her psych being the underdog.

 

[coppertop1]

What has helped Osmond in the last quad was losing the national title twice, swapping it between Daleman and Chartrand. I guess that helped her psych being the underdog.

And having to come back from injury. When she returned after missing a year, hype calmed down for a while.

 

[olympic]

I think Osmond's approach was interesting: She and her coach approached the LP by dividing it into 2 parts, like 2 SPs, so that it wouldn't overwhelm her. It doesn't hurt that she's naturally got great SS and huge swish jumps

 

[berthesghost]

I know that it's FSU and when it comes to federations, judges, coaches, etc there's no such thing as "too critical" while the skaters are all wrapped in cotton wool and handled with kid gloves for their oh so fragil egos, but I like to live dangerously so....

I watched the olys and I saw zulin, orser, Zhao, etc in the k&c. Who I didn't see were Boitano, blumburg, Babylonia, etc... The whole mentoring thing doesn't seem to be working but is it really just that only the USA has other opportunities for skaters or do none of them choose to coach.

None of them have yet to become champions, but most of the Russians' kids seem to have pursued skating. Compare that to the countless quotes from us champs who dissuade their kids from skating. Then we have the bizarre situation of Kristi in the same interview talk about mentoring Karen to be a champion while staying 100 miles away from her daughters skating. Carol was all over kristi's career like white on a skate boot.

 

[mag]

I think Osmond's approach was interesting: She and her coach approached the LP by dividing it into 2 parts, like 2 SPs, so that it wouldn't overwhelm her. It doesn't hurt that she's naturally got great SS and huge swish jumps

I highly doubt Kaetlyn’s “naturally got great SS and huge swish jumps.” I suspect good coaching and many hours of hard work has more to do with it .

 

[MacMadame]

The whole mentoring thing doesn't seem to be working but is it really just that only the USA has other opportunities for skaters or do none of them choose to coach.

Coaching and mentoring are not the same thing at all.

Then we have the bizarre situation of Kristi in the same interview talk about mentoring Karen to be a champion while staying 100 miles away from her daughters skating. Carol was all over kristi's career like white on a skate boot.

So she knows the pros and cons of that from having experienced it herself. Lots of parents do the opposite of what their parents did in at least one or two aspects of parenting. Not to mention, I haven't seen any real indication that Kristi's daughters are interested in being elite skaters.

I have some friends who were elite skaters and they are always posting on social media about how their kids are natural-born skaters and taking them to the rink at very young ages. (And others that don't.) I think you are generalizing from a limited data set. I'm sure there are Russian former-elite skaters who don't coach and some who don't encourage their kids to be elite skaters. Katya Gordeeva springs to mind.

 

[VGThuy]

And though she and Hongbo may change their minds, they are coaching (Shen is head of the Chinese figure skating association or whatever it’s called) and she has said she doesn’t want their daughter to be an elite figure skater and would hope she does something else.

 

[giselle23]

Med has also clearly gone through puberty. I noticed that for some reason during her exhibition

I would hope so, since she's 18!

 

[jenniferlyon]

I watched the olys and I saw zulin, orser, Zhao, etc in the k&c. Who I didn't see were Boitano, blumburg, Babylonia, etc... The whole mentoring thing doesn't seem to be working but is it really just that only the USA has other opportunities for skaters or do none of them choose to coach.

While watching the Olympics, I also noticed the absence of U.S. coaches who had been elite-level skaters. Mentoring is helpful, but it's not the same as having a coach with Brian Orser's wealth of experience (or Zhao's, Fusar-Poli's, Zhulin's, Lambiel's, etc.) at the rink working with their skaters every day.

 

[supergirl573]

And though she and Hongbo may change their minds, they are coaching (Shen is head of the Chinese figure skating association or whatever it’s called) and she has said she doesn’t want their daughter to be an elite figure skater and would hope she does something else.

This reminds of a quote from a Mafioso that got caught on wire (I think it was Tony Ducks Carollo) saying that they had to get their sons and families involved, like doctors and lawyers who got their children involved with the family trade, so that potential associates wouldn't think that mob life was for the birds.

 

[honey]

Kaetlyn Osmond was 14 coming close to turning 15 when in the JGP the only consistent triple she had was a 3T though she would also attempt 3S in competition. When she was 16 at Junior worlds she completely left out the 3Lo and it seems the 3Lz wasn't consistent but she had the rest of the triples except axel and was doing 3T+3T. I may be wrong, but it seems like she doesn't start doing the 3Lo in competition until the 2015-16 season when she was turning 20.

At 2012 nationals (just turned 16), Osmond had nothing more than toe, sal and flip in the program. But what she did have was technique that lended itself very well to 3-3s. I can still remember her on the practice the morning of the free skate reeling off 3t-3t and 3f-3t just because.

The lutz did not become consistent until the next season and she didn’t even start landing 3L in practice until after the Sochi Olympics. It was not attempted in competition until gp series 15/16.

I don’t really subscribe to the notion that you need all you’re jumps by a certain age. I think more important now is the technique and ability to throw a 3T on the end of a jump. That is the ticket now, the way a 3Z was in the 90s. Building that foundation for 3-3s would be my focus as a coach. The earlier you can do that the better.