American Women Used to Dominate in Figure Skating. What Happened?

[mag]

Again, some perspective, Zagitova has clearly gone through puberty. She may not be at her final height, but she is not a little girl, nor is she shaped like one. I really hate even discussing this or comparing Skaters, but I would say, from what I saw on TV, that Zagitova is larger busted than Osmond. Again, this whole conversation is just wrong. But it is also wrong to write Zagitova’s skill off to her being some tiny, skinny little girl. Furthermore, she does not look under nourished. She has lovely skin and bright eyes. She is also in amazing shape.

 

[Rock2]

Back in the day, Asia wasn't interested and Russia was more busy with pairs and dance. US ladies were beautiful to watch, emphasizing line and skating skills. They were able to control the narrative of what excellence was in skating, and it wasn't that often about jumps and spins. Audiences loved this. In the absence of a technical arms race, they dominated.

So what happened? Technical standards rose and other countries got in the game, training super hard and developing serious technical competency. Then figures disappeared. More focus on difficult tech.

Since about 1980 when the triples started coming in, I would say Michelle Kwan was the only US lady who could lay down consistent programs in a rising technical standard. Lipinski and Yamaguchi did it over a shorter period. Everyone else had their moments but were otherwise vulnerable as I mentally scroll through names.

So the short answer is the landscape changed. And just like the men, with some exceptions (Harding) the technical standards were pushed by other countries. They are being rewarded with titles.

We're seeing recently that America is getting the message (Nagasu, Chen, Zhou). I think they'll be catching up.

 

[MacMadame]

Med has also clearly gone through puberty. I noticed that for some reason during her exhibition

 

[Spun Silver]

I think Tom Z should give seminars to other coaches for USFS on the methods he used to help Mirai up her technical difficulty to an "insanely more difficult" level (her words) in four years.

And somebody from Canada or Japan should be shipped in to give seminars on PCS. ETA: Or Kore and Rohene could do that one.

I don't know if coaches are willing to share this kind of knowledge but it's needed!

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

I really hate even discussing this or comparing Skaters...but I would say this whole conversation is just wrong.

Why do you think this conversation is wrong? Jenny Kirk just estimated in an interview that 85% of figure skaters have eating disorders. Adam Rippon stated that as recently as last year he would only eat three slices of bread per day and nothing else. Coaches have said on record they encourage their skaters to eat powder, and others have said off the record that it's common in skating and gymnastics to train girls harder at a younger age to delay puberty. Another user said they know first-hand that champion skaters have had breast reduction surgery to continue competing.

These things happen. Are you OK with them? Or you want skaters to just "shut up and skate" as Laura Ingraham told basketball players to "shut up and dribble" last week? Nothing else matters but sequins and snark, results and pretty programs? These are real people's lives. I'm not going to suggest the theories in my post are the end-all be-all of this discussion, people who have gone through it personally are much more knowledgeable. But it's clear there needs to be more of this discussion out in the open, not less.

 

[snoopy]

I think Tom Z should give seminars to other coaches for USFS on the methods he used to help Mirai up her technical difficulty to an "insanely more difficult" level (her words) in four years.

And somebody from Canada or Japan should be shipped in to give seminars on PCS. ETA: Or Kore and Rohene could do that one.

I don't know if coaches are willing to share this kind of knowledge but it's needed!

Mirai said it took six years to get her axle. I’m not sure how that helps the USFS program on a large scale basis. And really, she has one harder jump. Not sure Tom is the cure all.

 

[mag]

Why do you think this conversation is wrong? Jenny Kirk just estimated in an interview that 85% of figure skaters have eating disorders. Adam Rippon stated that as recently as last year he would only eat three slices of bread per day and nothing else. Coaches have said on record they encourage their skaters to eat powder, and others have said off the record that it's common in skating and gymnastics to train girls harder at a younger age to delay puberty. Another user said they know first-hand that champion skaters have had breast reduction surgery to continue competing.

These things happen. Are you OK with them? Or you want skaters to just "shut up and skate" as Laura Ingraham told basketball players to "shut up and dribble" last week? Nothing else matters but sequins and snark, results and pretty programs? These are real people's lives. I'm not going to suggest the theories in my post are the end-all be-all of this discussion, people who have gone through it personally are much more knowledgeable. But it's clear there needs to be more of this discussion out in the open, not less.

I think it is wrong because we are not the people who should be having this discussion. As far as I know, none of us are part of the skaters’ teams. We are all, for the most part, just speculating, and in many cases doing it very badly. Comments about Kaetlyn being curvy (seriously?) about Zagitova having a little girl’s figure (that is not what I saw in that tutu) and all the talk about forcing delayed puberty, surgery, etc. Where does all this come from? Does anyone know for sure that this happens, or is it all just speculation? It comes across as concern trolling to me. Using fake concern to take jabs at skaters and try to diminish their success. Not everyone is doing that of course, but it seems to me it is one thing to snark about costumes, complain about under rotations, or talk about what happens in the K&C, and quite another to speculate about skaters having eating disorders or surgery. If you want to talk about it as a systemic problem, and do so without calling out individual skaters, that is one thing, but most of this just seems too personal and not particularly helpful.

 

[vesperholly]

Mirai said it took six years to get her axle. I’m not sure how that helps the USFS program on a large scale basis. And really, she has one harder jump. Not sure Tom is the cure all.

Yeah, and I don't think his other skaters have particularly strong jump technique. I'd rather go to a seminar held by Alex Ouriashev.

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

Where does all this come from? Does anyone know for sure that this happens, or is it all just speculation?

Well, read the thread. You said some posts come across as concern trolling. Yours come across as "damn the girls, just shutup and skate".

 

[mag]

Well, read the thread. You said some posts come across as concern trolling. Yours come across as "damn the girls, just shutup and skate".

Okay just wait a minute. I have never, ever suggested “damn the girls, just shutup (sic) and skate.” I do not know where that is coming from. I know nothing of your background, but I have been very clear that I am a skating parent and have been involved in this sport for many years. I see first hand what happens at the rink. I have watched world level skaters train. I also know that much of what is reported is a complete and total fabrication. Yes there are serious issues in figure skating, but comments like yours below are just inflammatory and add nothing of substance to the conversation.

My question to you, do you have anything, other than speculation, to back up this statement?

So what about the Russians? They don't have smaller framed Asian skaters. What do they have? They have poor girls who are used and abused in their factories. Hundreds or thousands who are starved and crushed into who knows what just to produce the occasional Yulia or Evgenia or Alina. Even when they produce one, they are still painfully starved and exploited. Why? They are desperate girls. They live in a different country, different social conditions and expectations. It's nothing for them to subject themselves to abuse in order to help their family. Are American girls willing to do that? Should we even ask them to? Of course not.

There has been lots of interesting discussion, I just think sometimes we get carried away and forget that we are talking about real children.

 

[BrightSkates]

I think it is wrong because we are not the people who should be having this discussion. As far as I know, none of us are part of the skaters’ teams. We are all, for the most part, just speculating, and in many cases doing it very badly. Comments about Kaetlyn being curvy (seriously?) about Zagitova having a little girl’s figure (that is not what I saw in that tutu) and all the talk about forcing delayed puberty, surgery, etc. Where does all this come from? Does anyone know for sure that this happens, or is it all just speculation? It comes across as concern trolling to me. Using fake concern to take jabs at skaters and try to diminish their success. Not everyone is doing that of course, but it seems to me it is one thing to snark about costumes, complain about under rotations, or talk about what happens in the K&C, and quite another to speculate about skaters having eating disorders or surgery. If you want to talk about it as a systemic problem, and do so without calling out individual skaters, that is one thing, but most of this just seems too personal and not particularly helpful.

Everything ToFarAwayTimes said is true. It's time to stop hiding head in the sand. I'm teaching skating for living since about 2005 in one of the busy international training centers and I have seen all of it. Eating disorder and a suicide as a result, parent threatening with a breast reduction surgery to her daughter if she want to continue competing, kids sharing purging technique in the bathroom, exercise binging, hearing by myself as Olympic level coaches telling already skinny skater to loose weight otherwise she won't rotate jumps, coach with a scale weighting skaters every day (yes, it's still happening), stress fractures and brutal complete fractures which were obviously from malnutrition and weak bones, eroded teeth from purging, Instagram posts where skater is obsessively posts how they eat junk food or baking but we all know what they do after. Also honorable mention - kids bullying kids because of the weight or their competitive results or eating habits (!), cliques at the rink and more bullying and exclusion because of it. Etc, etc, etc I can continue for a long time. It's all happening in this sport. I've seen a lot of young skaters ending up mentally disturbed or sick because of this. I've seen and still seeing them and interact with them every day! This sport is very mental and not only in a good way but also in a dark way. What happened to Gracie and Yulia is very common and it needs to be discussed. Too many kids lose their valuable young years struggling to recover from it. Teaching proper nutrition, positive sportsmanship and knowing how to loose graciously and be realistic in their own expectations (not only to skaters but also to parents!) has to be done in some ways systematically, not just one coach to skaters instance. Some coaches need education themselves! They were treated or doing it themselves and they think it's normal and part of it, to be a competitive skater.

Puberty is not only to grow up physically. After physical growth women's body is getting biologically ready to childbirth and all the hormonal and neurological components change to be suitable for it. It affects everything from quickness and twitch to stamina and mental aspect. There is a lot to compensate for a young body to overcome it. Some won't be able or will but in reduced capacity. Here then no more back loading of the programs and we will keep getting 'child' Olympic champions all the time. I wish there would be more research on it in all sports and some age recommendations and guidance would be put out. I feel fine control sports like gymnastics and figure skating are affected the most.

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

Okay just wait a minute. I have never, ever suggested “damn the girls, just shutup (sic) and skate.” I do not know where that is coming from. I know nothing of your background, but I have been very clear that I am a skating parent and have been involved in this sport for many years. I see first hand what happens at the rink. I have watched world level skaters train. I also know that much of what is reported is a complete and total fabrication. Yes there are serious issues in figure skating, but comments like yours below are just inflammatory and add nothing of substance to the conversation.

My question to you, do you have anything, other than speculation, to back up this statement?



There has been lots of interesting discussion, I just think sometimes we get carried away and forget that we are talking about real children.

Mag, I appreciate your perspective and concerns. Here was an article I read yesterday: https://thinkprogress.org/figure-skating-eating-disorders-c6472449def7/

Do you think Jenny Kirk is making something up, or just mistaken, when she estimates that 85% of figure skaters have eating disorders?
(I will assume she means elite figure skaters)

Another poster said they know personally that girls were getting breast reduction surgeries 30 years ago. It has been widely reported in the media that Yulia's family and coaches were taking measures to delay her puberty. Are you not familiar with these stories previously?

I understand this is a sensitive topic. But when is it OK to talk about? Only when the skaters themselves decide to speak up? Then we say aw that's so sad....but tomorrow we are back to talking about programs and next year's competitions? That only reinforces a culture of silence.

If you want to get offended and yell at me, I'm a grown man I can handle it. Go ahead. I will continue to advocate for change in the sport that protects our youth, and promotes skating in positive ways. Figure skating should add benefit to entire communities, and it should benefit the skaters at the individual level. It should never take. Yes, it can be expected that skaters will have to sacrifice and work hard to succeed competitively and accomplish their own personal goals, as that is necessary for any endeavor. But only to a point. At some point it is no longer sacrificing in the short term for long term gain. At some point it becomes abuse and exploitation. Other people reap the rewards, either financially (the skating associations, Olympic committees) or we the fans enjoy entertainment, while the skaters are left broken and used.

I will not accept that is the future of the sport, even if it has been that way in the past. If only skaters speak up once in awhile, nothing will change. The sport will only change when we start to listen to them, and add our voices on their behalf. Which is what I will continue to do.

 

[BrightSkates]

.....
So what about the Russians? They don't have smaller framed Asian skaters. What do they have? They have poor girls who are used and abused in their factories. Hundreds or thousands who are starved and crushed into who knows what just to produce the occasional Yulia or Evgenia or Alina. Even when they produce one, they are still painfully starved and exploited. Why? They are desperate girls. They live in a different country, different social conditions and expectations. It's nothing for them to subject themselves to abuse in order to help their family. Are American girls willing to do that? Should we even ask them to? Of course not.

These are harsh realities. If the sport is going to continue to be one that is all about jumps, jumps, jumps. U.S. ladies will get destroyed. It will never change back to what it once was. I would suggest lower your expectations taking everything above into consideration. Hope for the once every 20 years bronze medalist outlier, like most countries do. Or politick for changes in the judging system. Otherwise, there is no other way.

This is also true. I'm Russian, came from that system. That's true in many sports in Russia. Especially because they a sponsored by the government and there is a big nationalistic component

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

This is also true. I'm Russian, came from that system. That's true in many sports in Russia. Especially because they a sponsored by the government and there is a big nationalistic component

I don't want to sound anti-Russian, because I'm not. It happens here in the U.S. too. USA Gymnastics and USA Swimming are in the news a lot for abusing the athletes. These things are unacceptable, only barbarians do this. We are not barbarians, Americans, Russians, Europeans, Canadians, Japanese and Koreans, we are all human. We understand we need to protect the skaters. But there will always be one official, one coach, one athlete, and then others, who want to gain competitive edge. When the people in charge do not intervene, a bad cycle develops and the culture becomes poisonous.

I think that's the case in figure skating right now, certainly on the ladies side. People will propose all kinds of different solutions, but I maintain that the incentive structure must be altered. If young girls who do these things to their bodies always lose competitions, they will not continue down such a path. Their coaches and parents and teammates will not pressure them down that path. If the competition results value more mature skating, which takes time to develop, people will change strategy.

 

[Nadya]

So what about the Russians? They don't have smaller framed Asian skaters. What do they have? They have poor girls who are used and abused in their factories. Hundreds or thousands who are starved and crushed into who knows what just to produce the occasional Yulia or Evgenia or Alina. Even when they produce one, they are still painfully starved and exploited. Why? They are desperate girls. They live in a different country, different social conditions and expectations. It's nothing for them to subject themselves to abuse in order to help their family. Are American girls willing to do that? Should we even ask them to? Of course not..

You remind me of the parents of Americans who went to grad school with me. They were similarly drowned in cliches about what life in Russia is really like. I used to troll them just for giggles. This is how the conversation went most of the time:

"So, how was life in Russia?"

"It was tough, Mr. Smith. Really, really tough."

"I heard. Did you guys have food rationing?"

"Yes. It was really horrible. Sometimes..."

"Yes?"

"We didn't even have bread...and..."

"Oh you poor thing! Yes?"

"And then we had to eat our caviar straight out of the jar!"

The look on their faces was worth it.

Dude. Russia is a different country from whatever you have concocted in your Gulag dreams. There are no starving girls in factories. Many skaters come from middleclass families with solid support. No one is "starved and exploited" with a state-sponsored mandate (obviously, individual crazy cannot be ruled out). Although I know it's tempting to use this tired trope rather than accept that at this particular point of time, one country happens to ride the crest of ample talent crossed with good coaching. Were you having similar fits when the Japanese women dominated the sport? Was it somehow easy to accept that Japan's result come from ample talent and good coaching, but Russia must necessarily use nefarious means? Were you agitating for "mature skating" just as ardently when Lipinski and Hughes stood on top? Or did it take a Russian to light the fire of your indignant soul?

 

[Sylvia]

Why are American women failing to medal in Olympic figure skating? By Kavitha A. Davidson: http://www.espn.com/espnw/culture/f...an-women-failing-medal-olympic-figure-skating
Includes quotes from Justin Dillon (USFS' Director of High Performance Development), Tom Zakrajsek, and President Sam Auxier.

But oftentimes, American girls weren't learning the hardest jumps at the same age as their foreign competitors. "After the last Olympics, we recognized that many of our young skaters were largely focused on winning a U.S. Intermediate or Novice title," Dillon wrote. In other words, female skaters in national competitions made the podium by landing perfect doubles, rather than by attempting triples, so there was little incentive for American girls to start learning triples earlier, even if that game plan was short-sighted for those looking for international success.
...
U.S. Figure Skating has since passed rules to give young skaters an incentive to "aim higher," Dillon wrote, by adding bonus points for difficult jumps and reducing the penalties for falling. "This has resulted in some fearless young skaters, who most certainly will be able to compete for international podiums going forward," he said.

"We had a whole generation of skaters that really weren't coming through the pipeline ready to go into the junior Grand Prix and be competitive with triple-triple combinations," Zakrajsek said, adding that a female skater will have ideally learned the full cadre of triple jumps by age 12, so that in a couple years she can compete with the 13- and 14-year-old Russian and Japanese skaters who have already mastered their triples. "It takes a lot more time to learn those complex skills."
...
"Figure skating is a fine motor skills sport. That means it takes thousands of repetitions and thousands of hours to master the movements to make them really lightning-fast and automatic," Zakrajsek said. "If you don't start that process when you're young, you can't really be very good at it, and you don't learn it as your body ages. And so getting these new rules in place, I think, is going to have the biggest impact to returning especially the American women to dominance again in the world."

 

[jenniferlyon]

@ToFarAwayTimes - The Russian wonders aren’t Asians. They’re Caucasians. So are you suggesting that perhaps their physical development is purposely delayed or stunted? If so, how exactly? I’ve often wondered if certain medical manipulations take place, including reduction surgeries (nip n’ tuck) or regimens that may delay puberty until an Olympic cycle is over, assuming it doesn’t involve taking a banned drug? If so, how could the IOC ban such surgeries or regimens? That’s the skater’s (&/or team’s) choice.

There are drugs that can delay puberty. I am most familiar with this via "I Am Jazz", a reality show on TLC about a transgender teenager. Jazz started taking puberty blockers at around age 11. But this poor kid has had so many medical issues/complications/side effects that giving these same drugs to skaters would create more problems than they would fix. (Not that puberty is something that needs to be fixed.)

And for those who say Americans would never allow their kids to be treated the way Eteri treats her skaters, I disagree. All we have to do is look at how many parents of gymnasts were willing to send their kids to the Karolyi ranch. Maybe the parents knew about Larry Nassar, maybe they didn't. But the Karolyis' practices have been well known to the general public for decades. American parents sent their kids there anyway. And I'm sure somewhere there's a desperate American skatemom trying to get Eteri to train her daughter. ("We'll move to Russia. We'll pay extra. We'll do whatever it takes. Just teach my daughter how to skate like Alina!")

 

[MacMadame]

Here is something I don't understand... did skaters who competed in the age of figures and had all the triples (sans axel), like Yamaguchi, learn them all by the age of 12?

 

[Deleted member 53443]

If you are a top athlete and eat three slices of bread per day you are just incredibly uneducated in the nutritional aspect of being an athlete. That is so counterproductive.

 

[gkelly]

Here is something I don't understand... did skaters who competed in the age of figures and had all the triples (sans axel), like Yamaguchi, learn them all by the age of 12?

There were not a lot of female skaters during the figures era who had all their triples.

I don't know if I could name 20 senior ladies from ca. 1992 who had landed 5 (or in the case of Ito and Harding 6) different triples in competition, not necessarily the same competition. Obviously I'm not familiar with everybody who competed in the 1980s and early 90s, who came up through the system with figures and may have reached or stuck around at senior level during the first few post-figures years. So I'm sure there were more than 20 somewhere in the whole world who might meet that criterion. But not a lot more, probably not 40 or 50.

In the 1980s, it seemed most elite ladies could do triple sal and triple toe, and the good jumpers could do one more triple, usually but not always the loop.

A figures-era skater who could do 4 or 5 different kinds of triples was rare indeed.

When did they learn those 2 or 3 triples in their repertoire? Depends on the skater, but early teens was probably most common.

 

[jenniferlyon]

Here is something I don't understand... did skaters who competed in the age of figures and had all the triples (sans axel), like Yamaguchi, learn them all by the age of 12?

Most of the skaters who competed in the figures era didn't have a full set of triples even at their peak. In the 1980s, the big names had a triple toe loop and a triple salchow. The rest of the jumps were iffy. At the 1988 Olympics, Midori Ito and Elizabeth Manley were the only ladies who landed a triple lutz. Midori could do all the triples except the axel by the time she was 13, but she was the exception rather than the rule. (I researched a lot of this history when I was working on my novel. My fictional skaters competed during this same era and I wanted their technical content to be in line with what was going on in the real world. No triple Pamchenkos or anything like that.)

 

[jenniferlyon]

If you are a top athlete and eat three slices of bread per day you are just incredibly uneducated in the nutritional aspect of being an athlete. That is so counterproductive.

Yeah, but I don't think skaters who do things like that to themselves are thinking in the long term. They're thinking, "I need to lose some weight fast, so I won't eat anything." They are surrounded by other skaters with similar eating habits, so what they're doing seems normal, especially if their skinnier weight is getting positive feedback from coaches, judges, etc.

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

Very strong article in the WP today against the USOC.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...47dd2df3829_story.html?utm_term=.80cfe17574c3

These are the people who make decisions in American amateur athletics and they base their decisions on what will keep their job and how much money they can graft off the athletes. These are the people we need to go after to change anything.

 

[mag]

Very strong article in the WP today against the USOC.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...47dd2df3829_story.html?utm_term=.80cfe17574c3

These are the people who make decisions in American amateur athletics and they base their decisions on what will keep their job and how much money they can graft off the athletes. These are the people we need to go after to change anything.

Fabulous article and some really good, workable, solutions. The cost of all of these committee people is also a huge drain on Olympic Organizing Committees. I remember hearing stories in 2010 in Vancouver about how the Olympic committee would only stay in a 5 Star hotel. How they had to have traffic lanes reserved just for them. The demands went on and on. So much for it being about the athletes! I am sure this is an issue in other countries as well.

A final note about the article. I hope the Congress appoints a interim chairperson. This is 2018 and there is no excuse not to use inclusive language.

 

[MacMadame]

I don't know if I could name 20 senior ladies from ca. 1992 who had landed 5 (or in the case of Ito and Harding 6) different triples in competition, not necessarily the same competition.

I was thinking about Worlds and Olympics in 92 and 94. It seems like most of the top ladies had 5 triples. Yamaguchi did and I'm pretty sure she didn't get them before she was 12.

When I started skating in 93, the conventional wisdom was that you had to get at least one triple by 12 if you wanted to get all your triples. Now they are saying you have to get them all by 12. I am just not that convinced this is as true as people think it is.

 

[leigh466]

Very strong article in the WP today against the USOC.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...47dd2df3829_story.html?utm_term=.80cfe17574c3

These are the people who make decisions in American amateur athletics and they base their decisions on what will keep their job and how much money they can graft off the athletes. These are the people we need to go after to change anything.

This article needs to be sent all over the internet and reprinted and reprinted and redistributed some more until every reform the author advocates is undertaken. Thank you for posting. The problem of the USA in the microcosm of the USOC. All for the fat cats, while the workers get crushed.

 

[MsZem]

Why are American women failing to medal in Olympic figure skating? By Kavitha A. Davidson: http://www.espn.com/espnw/culture/f...an-women-failing-medal-olympic-figure-skating
Includes quotes from Justin Dillon (USFS' Director of High Performance Development), Tom Zakrajsek, and President Sam Auxier.

If this article is indeed reflective of the mindset among US coaches and officials, I can see why the US has had limited success in the ladies discipline. US ladies are not struggling because the IJS doesn't reward strong spins or because it encourages skaters to do jumps that they can't rotate, and I'm not seeing any great artistry from the US ladies that's not being rewarded.

I think that a lot of us agree that the lack of success by US ladies is a combination of developmental issues, high costs/limited access, and other countries catching up and eclipsing the US - giving skaters in Japan and Russia role models to look up to and strong training systems that can push them forward.

That said, Russian ladies were basically a joke less than a decade ago. The US doesn't have the structure to follow that model, but there's certainly things that can be done.

 

[Meoima]

There are drugs that can delay puberty. I am most familiar with this via "I Am Jazz", a reality show on TLC about a transgender teenager. Jazz started taking puberty blockers at around age 11. But this poor kid has had so many medical issues/complications/side effects that giving these same drugs to skaters would create more problems than they would fix. (Not that puberty is something that needs to be fixed.)

And for those who say Americans would never allow their kids to be treated the way Eteri treats her skaters, I disagree. All we have to do is look at how many parents of gymnasts were willing to send their kids to the Karolyi ranch. Maybe the parents knew about Larry Nassar, maybe they didn't. But the Karolyis' practices have been well known to the general public for decades. American parents sent their kids there anyway. And I'm sure somewhere there's a desperate American skatemom trying to get Eteri to train her daughter. ("We'll move to Russia. We'll pay extra. We'll do whatever it takes. Just teach my daughter how to skate like Alina!")

An ice mom at my ice rink is sending her daughter to Eteri this summer as well. The girl is 9 and has all doubles. When I asked her about the cost she did not reply, I assume it's very high. But yeah... people will send their girls to Eteri nevertheless.

 

[snoopy]

Here is something I don't understand... did skaters who competed in the age of figures and had all the triples (sans axel), like Yamaguchi, learn them all by the age of 12?

triple triples. The article said You have to have triples by age 12 so you can start on triple triples to be ready for jpg by 14.

I think Kristi has one 3-3 but didn’t use it very often.

 

[gkelly]

I was thinking about Worlds and Olympics in 92 and 94. It seems like most of the top ladies had 4 triples. Yamaguchi did and I'm pretty sure she didn't get them before she was 12.

No, but she had triple flip at 14.

I think most of those few ladies who had 4 or more triples in 1992 were trying at least 1 triple at age 12, but they had been novices or juniors at 12 so we don't have many videos or documentation of what they were doing.

We know Midori Ito did 3T+3T at 12 because she was the first girl to do it. She may not have had all triples at 12 but she did by 14.

Generally ambitious juniors were aiming to match or exceed what the top seniors of the day were doing in terms of jump content. So by the time they got to seniors, what had been cutting edge a few years ago was now the norm for elite levels.

This was especially true in the early 90s, when the then-juniors suddenly didn't have to spend time on figures any more.

Michelle Kwan 1993:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htevMS0Vnyc

Most 12-year-olds in the immediate post-figures era who would later go on to glory didn't have all triples yet, but they did have some at 12 and usually all they were going to get by 15 or 16, often by 14.

And then they could start working on harder combinations, as well as refining the rest of their skating.

I think that is probably still more or less true. But if top skaters now are doing multiple triple-triples plus level 4 spins and steps, then the earlier a skater gets triples the sooner she can start working on the combinations.