American Women Used to Dominate in Figure Skating. What Happened?

[olympic]

I highly doubt Kaetlyn’s “naturally got great SS and huge swish jumps.” I suspect good coaching and many hours of hard work has more to do with it .

Of course, no skate goes anywhere without putting in the hard work, but I noticed that back when I first saw her in the 2012 time frame, before she was consistent, her jumps had a big, natural lift and flow to them; pretty special and natural.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Just for some perspective, Kaetlyn is 5’4” and very, very petite. Calling her taller and more shapely is crazy. You really cannot tell size based on a TV or computer screen.

I have stood next to her. She has, by skating standards, a more mature build than Medvedeva and Zagitova.

 

[GarrAargHrumph]

Didn't Mirai get some kind of scholarship or stipend as long as she skated for her college? I could be remembering wrong but I do recall she won some college figure skating title some years ago and said something along those lines.

Figure skating is not an NCAA sport, which means there are no actual sports scholarships for figure skating from colleges. However, outside organizations can give private scholarships for whatever they'd like. USFS has scholarships you can apply for, and they also give out scholarships to the winners (and all ladies' medalists) at the US Collegiate Championships.

The Collegiate Championship award is a one time award (as, I believe, are the others that USFS gives out.) For the Collegiate Championship one, you get it if you go to school full time for one term. Your school doesn't need to have a formal figure skating team for you to get it, so you're not required to skate for your school's team.

 

[MacMadame]

To add to this, every year at Nats, USFS recognizes members of their Scholastic Honors Team. This is a program that recognizes junior & senior full-time high school students who maintain a GPA of at least 3.4 and recently competed in a qualifying competition at Novice or higher level.

You can read more about the program here:

http://www.usfsa.org/story?id=84099&menu=funding

These programs help but they are a drop in the bucket when it comes to training costs and it's nothing like going to a school where they have scholarships for athletes in certain sports that give you a full ride to college.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

Figure skating is not an NCAA sport, which means there are no actual sports scholarships for figure skating from colleges. However, outside organizations can give private scholarships for whatever they'd like. USFS has scholarships you can apply for, and they also give out scholarships to the winners (and all ladies' medalists) at the US Collegiate Championships.

The Collegiate Championship award is a one time award (as, I believe, are the others that USFS gives out.) For the Collegiate Championship one, you get it if you go to school full time for one term. Your school doesn't need to have a formal figure skating team for you to get it, so you're not required to skate for your school's team.

Thanks for the explanation!

 

[giselle23]

The US has young skaters who could become champions. They don't need to have that many. There is only one gold medal at each competition. Four years is a long time in the skating world. Russia is dominant now, but that is no guarantee it will continue. Many things factor in--growth, injuries, eating disorders, competitive drive, family issues.

 

[topaz]

The US has young skaters who could become champions. They don't need to have that many. There is only one gold medal at each competition. Four years is a long time in the skating world. Russia is dominant now, but that is no guarantee it will continue. Many things factor in--growth, injuries, eating disorders, competitive drive, family issues.

What you mention, ie injuries are a possibly of course. However, the depth of ladies skating is Russia is unlike something I think the skating world has seen in a long long time, maybe ever. Their junior skaters getting ready to jump to senior is going to really be a shocking development to US skating fans who are unfamilar with their talent pool. The talent is so deep that some of these young ladies may not make it on te world team for Russia. As I stated before, some of these young ladies are going to have to consider skating for other countries in order for their competitive dreams to come true. There are and will be 10 Russian ladies fighting for 3 world spots over the next 8 to 10 years.

 

[MacMadame]

However, the depth of ladies skating is Russia is unlike something I think the skating world has seen in a long long time, maybe ever.

That was exactly like how things used to be in the US way back when. It's how we lost Dianne de Leeuw. She was a talented figure skater who couldn't break through in the US so switched to skating for the Netherlands, where both her parents had citizenship (her dad also had US citizenship). She went on to win a World Championship, a European Championship, and an Olympic Silver medal!

 

[berthesghost]

Weren’t there a bunch, like Sylvia Fontana, Sydney Vogel, Tristan Z., the Reeds, etc?

 

[MacMadame]

Tristan was 90s, I think? Maybe Sydne too. Fontana definitely was. The Reeds switched in the early 00s. There are always US skaters switching to other countries because of our depth but usually it's skaters who aren't going to be medaling at Worlds like de Leeuw. So they show that we're a powerhouse country with a lot of skating depth compared to a smaller country but it's not like it was back in the 70s when de Leeuw switched. Someone like her would be medalling at Nationals in the 90s and onward and so wouldn't feel a need to switch.

For a long time, US Nationals was the Hunger Games for the Ladies, there were Juniors who would test up to Seniors and be immediately competitive, US Ladies skaters were almost always on the Podium at Worlds and the Olympics. Even swept the Podium at Worlds one year.

It didn't really start to change until around the time Kwan became so dominant. I don't think that's the cause though. I think it was a gradual eroding as Title IX gave women more and more choices in sports. That's because even in the 90s and early 00s, we had rivalries and usually there was a US Ladies skater on the Worlds podium. But the signs were there that the depth was lacking.

Now US Ice Dance is like Ladies used to be. And the Russians are no longer as dominant as they were in that discipline. It's flip-flopped.

 

[giselle23]

What you mention, ie injuries are a possibly of course. However, the depth of ladies skating is Russia is unlike something I think the skating world has seen in a long long time, maybe ever. Their junior skaters getting ready to jump to senior is going to really be a shocking development to US skating fans who are unfamilar with their talent pool. The talent is so deep that some of these young ladies may not make it on te world team for Russia. As I stated before, some of these young ladies are going to have to consider skating for other countries in order for their competitive dreams to come true. There are and will be 10 Russian ladies fighting for 3 world spots over the next 8 to 10 years.

Depth isn't necessary to have a champion. There was no depth in Korea but Yuna Kim has gold and silver Olympic medals. It only takes one. Too much intra-country competition will cause some skaters to drop out. If they can't beat the competition while skating for Russia, they won't be able to do it skating for another country.

 

[rvi5]

...If they can't beat the competition while skating for Russia, they won't be able to do it skating for another country.

It depends on what their immediate competitive dreams are. Do they want a medal, or just get to the Olympics? As you suggested, switching countries may not get the medal. However, it could improve the chances of getting to the Olympics.

 

[MacMadame]

Depth isn't necessary to have a champion. There was no depth in Korea but Yuna Kim has gold and silver Olympic medals. It only takes one. Too much intra-country competition will cause some skaters to drop out. If they can't beat the competition while skating for Russia, they won't be able to do it skating for another country.

It's true you don't need depth to have a champion. But you need depth to sweep a podium. And depth increases the chances of having a champion and having them regularly.

I think your last two sentences are a bit contradictory though. If some young possible future champion does drop out because they are discouraged, that means the country will miss out on what they could have been even if they aren't beating the competition right this second. Also, anyone can have a bad night. Having a bad night a Nationals often means you don't get to Worlds in countries with a lot of depth. If that same skater switches countries to one where they always get to Worlds, they might beat those same Russian skaters at Worlds.

 

[Cleo1782]

Weren’t there a bunch, like Sylvia Fontana, Sydney Vogel, Tristan Z., the Reeds, etc?

Tristan switched late in his career. Sydney never competed for another country, nor did Fontana-she always represented Italy, but trained in the US. There are a bunch of instances over the years, but I don't believe those two are

 

[Nadya]

That was exactly like how things used to be in the US way back when. It's how we lost Dianne de Leeuw. She was a talented figure skater who couldn't break through in the US so switched to skating for the Netherlands, where both her parents had citizenship (her dad also had US citizenship). She went on to win a World Championship, a European Championship, and an Olympic Silver medal!

And isn't this a repetition of how things were in Japan a few years ago? At that time, anyone from the top ten ladies at Japanese Nationals could have been a contender at the Worlds and more. I feel like country fortunes rise and fall. Of course policies matter, funding matters, role models matter, resources matter...But even with all that, there is a natural cadence, ebb and flow to this. Right now, Russia is riding the wave. Five or ten years from now, someone else may rise.

 

[berthesghost]

Tristan switched late in his career. Sydney never competed for another country, nor did Fontana-she always represented Italy, but trained in the US. There are a bunch of instances over the years, but I don't believe those two are

i think I read that Sylvia skated for US in novice and/or junior, but I could be wrong, or they were wrong.

You are probably right about Sydney. People online speculated so much about her skating for Germany that I might have made it happen in my mind. Lol

 

[berthesghost]

Thanks to Russian coaches.

because that’s different from the Swiss, French and Italian coaches that made American singles champions how?

 

[MacMadame]

Psst. It's spelled Sydne. (Hey, I'm just the messenger on this one!)

Sylvia was born in NJ but raised in Italy. Her wikipedia page says she started representing Italy in the 93-1994 season which kind of implies she skated for the US before that but that may only mean she skated in local comps.

 

[Japanfan]

We see this differently. I know it was a random draw. It's really weird though how some of those draws pan out, or exactly how they are conducted for all the groups. Again, I know it's random, but the draws apparently are done within a group and however they are done, it's possible for some manipulation if it's done manually.

Can you be specific about what manipulation is possible?

 

[Japanfan]

Interesting generalization. It doesn't apply to Kwan, Harding, Galindo, Nagasu, Nathan Chen, Zhou, Tennell, Wagner, Starr Andrews, at least two prominent juniors at 2018 Nats with touching immigrant stories... for starters.

I would still tend to agree with jenniferlyon that most skaters tend to come from the upper middle class. If not, their families would have to at least be comfortable. For example, the Kwan's mortgaged their home to help pay for Michelle's skating. To do that, they had to own a home to begin with, and not be renters. They also owned a restaurant IIRC. That may not be upper middle class but it's a long ways away from poor.

I would think that poor skaters like Tonya are few and far between.

What is upper middle class anyway, in terms of dollars?

The modest estimate that comes to mind for an elite skater is $50,000 a year. To put that in perspective, Patrick Chan once said his skating cost him $200,000 a year - granted, that figure probably included his mortgages.

So for parents to afford $50,000 per year and still support a family and at least a middle class lifestyle, which I'll guess would take $100,000 per year, they would probably need to be earning at least $150,000 per year - not a whole lot really for two working professional parents.

 

[allezfred]

because that’s different from the Swiss, French and Italian coaches that made American singles champions how?

Because the entire U.S. dance programme that is so strong today is the result of Russian coaching expertise exclusively.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Because the entire U.S. dance programme that is so strong today is the result of Russian coaching expertise exclusively.

I'd say that Camerlengo, and contnuing for H/D, Dubreuil, and Lauzon (plus Scali and Haguenauer) might beg to differ, but primarily, that is true, with a major push from IJS. And V/M got their superb foundational skills in Canada.

 

[VGThuy]

Because the entire U.S. dance programme that is so strong today is the result of Russian coaching expertise exclusively.

I think that and IJS really did it for the U.S. program. Plus, we had a lot of years of "rent-a-Russian" going on in the U.S. and that HAD to be influential. In the 90s, the days of Blumbert/Seibert were gone and the Americans had to adapt to what the judges were rewarding, which was clearly the Russian style. I also think the Russian coaches that came and stayed in the U.S. were forward thinking with IJS and knew individual elements could set their teams apart the way Montreal is now forward thinking in that judges are now ready to reward a program where the elements weave together as a holistic whole where one cannot always tell when an element (like the footwork sequence) started and ended compared to before where you made sure the judges saw your elements and recognized it.

 

[Deleted member 19433]

i think I read that Sylvia skated for US in novice and/or junior, but I could be wrong, or they were wrong.

You are probably right about Sydney. People online speculated so much about her skating for Germany that I might have made it happen in my mind. Lol

Sydne Vogel did compete at German Nationals in 2003. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_German_Figure_Skating_Championships

 

[manhn]

I think a country that accepts and welcomes input from other countries around the world will improve their system, whether in figure skating or in another field.

 

[MacMadame]

So for parents to afford $50,000 per year and still support a family and at least a middle class lifestyle, which I'll guess would take $100,000 per year, they would probably need to be earning at least $150,000 per year - not a whole lot really for two working professional parents.

This is so varies based on where you live.

Those figures don't work in California for example. There was a recent article about what it took to "get by" in the Bay Area (where Karen Chen & Vincent Zhou started) for a family of four. I'd say that "gets by" translates to working class. The answer was around $80,000 btw. Crazy! $150,000 here is lower middle class. Upper middle class is more like $250,000 here. I believe COL is slightly cheaper in LA (where many elite skaters train) but not by much.

But in other parts of the country, $150,000 sound about right for upper-middle-class.

However, you are talking about spending 1/3 of what you earn on skating. You say this is "not a whole lot really" but I think that's a crazy amount of money to be spending on one child's extracurricular activities. When you add in what it costs for a child to feed and clothe them and send them to school, one kid could be spending almost half the family's income!

 

[kwanfan1818]

I always go back to a book that I bought at 2004 Worlds in Dortmund, which had a bunch of essays and interviews in German and English translation. In the chapter on Pakhamova and Gorshkov, I think it was Gorshkov who said that they knew they didn't have the technical skills to compete with the dominant British school, so they knew to win they had to change the paradigm. And they did.

Shpilband might not have changed the paradigm himself, but he was a devoted student of Pakhamova, and he jumped on the paradigm shift with IJS. It wouldn't have worked in the Soviet Union, where there was an entrenched hierarchy, and no one jumped on it in the early years when there was chaos in Russia, which would have been the perfect opportunity.

 

[Cleo1782]

i think I read that Sylvia skated for US in novice and/or junior, but I could be wrong, or they were wrong.

You are probably right about Sydney. People online speculated so much about her skating for Germany that I might have made it happen in my mind. Lol

Perhaps Sylvia did skate for the US, but not at the national/international level. Sydne I guess tried to skate for Germany, but never did internationally. Her career was pretty much derailed by injury. I think she would have stayed quite competitive in the US if she wasn't plagued by injury. Sorry I was thinking internationally like Paganini, Marakova, Rajicova, Messing etc.

 

[feraina]

I would still tend to agree with jenniferlyon that most skaters tend to come from the upper middle class. If not, their families would have to at least be comfortable. For example, the Kwan's mortgaged their home to help pay for Michelle's skating. To do that, they had to own a home to begin with, and not be renters. They also owned a restaurant IIRC. That may not be upper middle class but it's a long ways away from poor.

I would think that poor skaters like Tonya are few and far between.

What is upper middle class anyway, in terms of dollars?

The modest estimate that comes to mind for an elite skater is $50,000 a year. To put that in perspective, Patrick Chan once said his skating cost him $200,000 a year - granted, that figure probably included his mortgages.

So for parents to afford $50,000 per year and still support a family and at least a middle class lifestyle, which I'll guess would take $100,000 per year, they would probably need to be earning at least $150,000 per year - not a whole lot really for two working professional parents.

Don’t forget taxes. To have $150K post tax income in California, you need to make $250K a year. And I’m not talking about the Bay Area. COL is such that $100K will definitely not be enough for a family of four. Housing alone will cost close to that in a decent neighborhood.

 

[Vagabond]

Tristan Z.

Tristan

Tristan

Trifun. Trifun Živanović. As easy to remember as it is to spell.