American Women Used to Dominate in Figure Skating. What Happened?

USFS needs to support and train development coaches better so young talent can be developed at a elite level at a home rink.

The Russians start developing their top talent at an elite level about two years before an American skater with comparable talent starts developing at an elite level. This is due to a willingness of parents to either move or ship their children off to Moscow or St. Petersburg at around 10-11 years old.

Obviously, this will not work in the US, but you simply can't wait until a skater is 14 or 15 years old to ship them off to Tom, Raf, etc.
 
MacMadame said:
Not for any teachers and military personnel I know. Many in the military struggle to pay their bills and some even receive assistance such as food stamps. Many teachers work a second job to be able to afford a few luxuries.
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Ashley's father was a Lieutenant Colonel , so I suspect he did quite well.
 
A number of years ago an acquaintance of mine mentioned taking his wife and young daughter to Rockefeller Center for some figure skating. The daughter was spotted by well known coach Peter Burrows and the child's parents were approached about having their daughter be couched by him. I don't remember the exact age of the girl, just that she could do an axel. Her parents were in something of a tizzy about what to do, because lessons with a top flight coach would be expensive and it would have involved a lot of serious and costly travel. When I saw the acquaintance next, he said his daughter had lost all interest in figure skating and his relief was palpable. He worked in contracting and there was no time or money for the lessons.
 
bardtoob said:
USFS needs to support and train development coaches better so young talent can be developed at a elite level at a home rink.

The Russians start developing their top talent at an elite level about two years before an American skater with comparable talent starts developing at an elite level. This is due to a willingness of parents to either move or ship their children off to Moscow or St. Petersburg at around 10-11 years old.

Obviously, this will not work in the US, but you simply can't wait until a skater is 14 or 15 years old to ship them off to Tom, Raf, etc.
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Do the top U.S. coaches even take kids that young? If the parents can't move with the kid, then the coach or a set of ersatz foster parents have to raise them because you can't leave a ten-year-old to their own devices.
 
Mag, I don't think we could have have State sponsored sports initiatives. The public outcry would be deafening. I often wonder how other countries manage to do it. Taxpayers get more and more concerned about where their monies are going and everything becomes a huge debate these days. We have so many public programs now funded with tax payer dollars and so much resentment towards them from other people who do not value whatever it is that is being supported that I can't see any way that we could ever have sports funding.

People, these days, even resent food stamp program monies and they scream about their taxpayer funds going to feed indigent people let alone if the government tried to fund sports. If there is debate about whether to even help feed people who can't afford to buy food, you can't begin to have State sponsored sports funding. Funding to the arts recently got cut. I honestly don't know how it all works in other countries. We have lots of people here from countries besides the US - perhaps some of them who read this thread might help us understand how funding works in their country. One thing is for sure - it would not work here. If we resent even feeding poor people, we are surely not going to fork over anything to help FS. The US is arguably the richest nation in the world yet many of its citizens resent food stamps for the poor.
 
giselle23 said:
You don't think jumping is the most important thing in Russia and everywhere else?
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I think the poster meant that Russian coaches pay more attention to building skills from the ground up as in, they don't move on to the next step until the basic skills are perfected whereas US coaches might take the next step regardless of how perfected the previous step is. Consequently, US skaters would be lacking in basic skills later and that would lead to lower technical content and higher jumping inconsistency.

Another thing might be run-throughs. The more full run-throughs you do, the better your stamina. It's been some time now since I heard it but I heard that Russian coaches put more emphasis on doing full run-throughs of the program than Western coaches did.


jenniferlyon said:
Do the top U.S. coaches even take kids that young? If the parents can't move with the kid, then the coach or a set of ersatz foster parents have to raise them because you can't leave a ten-year-old to their own devices.
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This raises a good point. I recently read an article about employment options and job availability and it mentioned that Americans don't move as much as they used to. So, I would imagine that unwillingness to move to get the kid access to the coaching they need to go places is a factor.
 
brennele said:
Mag, I don't think we could have have State sponsored sports initiatives. The public outcry would be deafening. I often wonder how other countries manage to do it.
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I expect cultural differences of what is considered important and valuable to the country are a key factor.

Same way different countries have greatly varying attitudes to social welfare issues. What is considered normal and essential in some countries would be highly controversial elsewhere.
 
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ballettmaus said:
This raises a good point. I recently read an article about employment options and job availability and it mentioned that Americans don't move as much as they used to. So, I would imagine that unwillingness to move to get the kid access to the coaching they need to go places is a factor.
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Yeah, especially when the kid is only 10-11 years old. By 14-15, it's easier for the parents to tell if their kid has a realistic shot at becoming a top-level skater. They might be more willing to make those tough sacrifices at that point.
 
Stephori said:
Canada's placements for the ladies at the Olympics was 3, 15, 25. Even with a bronze medal, overall, I wouldn't say they did better than the Americans with 9, 10 and 11.
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I would take 3rd, 15th, and 25th, over 9-10-11 any day. A medal is a medal. But Canada was lucky, sports are a numbers game and I don't think Osmond could reproduce that FS if she were given more chances. Good for her she delivered when it counted. But I think it would be a mistake to think Canada has any more answers than the U.S.

Simple fact is that it's extremely difficult for normal sized causasian women to compete in this sport nowadays. I don't care if that's PC or not. One of the comments I always hear from women watching figure skating in recent years is "why don't any of these girls have breasts/butt/body". There are no figures segment of the competition anymore. Tech content is not the same as it was in previous generations. Anyone can go back and look at podium pictures from the 50s-90s. The women just look different, more mature. Now? It's a sport made for juvenile spinning tops. Completely different body type.

There's a cultural thing in U.S. skating looking for that prototype white princess we can put on the Wheaties box and sell millions of commercials. Gracie Gold, Ashley Wagner, Kaetlyn Osmond in Canada. I would love for these girls to be successful and once in awhile they are...but can they repeat success over and over again? They are at a disadvantage. That's why I think it might be unfair to blame Gracie or Ashley for "failing" all the time, then yell at them behind closed doors to always lose more weight. Kaetlyn got two clean skates and a bronze, but is that expected? Or was it an exception? Should we rely on wings and prayers? I think it's a poor strategy.

You see a lot more Asian-American girls like Mirai and Karen taking over top spots in the U.S. these days. Also in Men's. I think that diversity is great, they are the best skaters we have. But how many Asians does Japan have? How about Korea? That puts us at a disadvantage. If you accept the sport is only conducive for certain body types, we have a poor disadvantage in sheer numbers of talent pool compared to some other countries.

So what about the Russians? They don't have smaller framed Asian skaters. What do they have? They have poor girls who are used and abused in their factories. Hundreds or thousands who are starved and crushed into who knows what just to produce the occasional Yulia or Evgenia or Alina. Even when they produce one, they are still painfully starved and exploited. Why? They are desperate girls. They live in a different country, different social conditions and expectations. It's nothing for them to subject themselves to abuse in order to help their family. Are American girls willing to do that? Should we even ask them to? Of course not.

These are harsh realities. If the sport is going to continue to be one that is all about jumps, jumps, jumps. U.S. ladies will get destroyed. It will never change back to what it once was. I would suggest lower your expectations taking everything above into consideration. Hope for the once every 20 years bronze medalist outlier, like most countries do. Or politick for changes in the judging system. Otherwise, there is no other way.
 
ToFarAwayTimes said:
Simple fact is that it's extremely difficult for normal sized causasian women to compete in this sport nowadays. I don't care if that's PC or not. One of the comments I always hear from women watching figure skating in recent years is "why don't any of these girls have breasts/butt/body". There are no figures segment of the competition anymore. Tech content is not the same as it was in previous generations. Anyone can go back and look at podium pictures from the 50s-90s. The women just look different, more mature. Now? It's a sport made for juvenile spinning tops. Completely different body type.
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Skating has such a harsh way of weeding out body types that struggle with the increasing technical demands of the sport.

Even 30 years ago, I personally knew of several ladies at the elite championship level who had breast reductions after they hit puberty.

Taller and more shapely power skaters like Osmond seem to be the exception now.
 
@ToFarAwayTimes - The Russian wonders aren’t Asians. They’re Caucasians. So are you suggesting that perhaps their physical development is purposely delayed or stunted? If so, how exactly? I’ve often wondered if certain medical manipulations take place, including reduction surgeries (nip n’ tuck) or regimens that may delay puberty until an Olympic cycle is over, assuming it doesn’t involve taking a banned drug? If so, how could the IOC ban such surgeries or regimens? That’s the skater’s (&/or team’s) choice.

Then there are the living miracles like Bradie Tennell - Caucasian, well past the age of puberty (age 20), with the ballet-thin physique to thrive under the current system. We can’t blame her 9th-Place finish in Pyeonchang on having the wrong body type! One needs a blend of physical attributes and mental toughness.
 
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Frau Muller said:
Then there are the living miracles like Bradie Tennell - Caucasian, well past the age of puberty (age 20), with the ballet-thin physique to thrive under the current system. We can’t blame her 9th-Place finish in Pyeonchang on having the wrong body type! One needs a blend of physical attributes and mental toughness.
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Right. In the US lightening has to strike to get another ladies champion. You have to have:

  • the correct body type
  • a competitive mind
  • the money
  • a willing family
  • a good coach
  • the interest

So I think T-FAT is correct, don't get our expectations up. It might happen but only if it is written in the stars.
 
These latest comments are excellent from a scientific/ medical perspective. Toofaraway is spot on. The sport has evolved to where success requires a different body type than what is common and the norm for American woman. As for the Russian Europeans, I have a slightly different take. It is not so much that they have the right body because the girls are abused. Rather, they have State sponsorship so they have a wider pool to choose from. We have members of our population with that body type; we just don't have as many of them as do the Asian cultures. It is more the norm there while it tends to be the exception here. With State sponsorship, one can pick out the individuals with the requisite body types and cultivate them because money is not a consideration. As the system works here, money IS a consideration hence you have to have a combo of the right body type AND the right amount of money - much more difficult to find versus if you are simply looking for the right body type. The same thing will be happening to the men. We will see more Asian males competing at the top levels because quads require
 
Probably the financial aspects are more of a hindrance then are the body type aspects. Given a sufficiently large population, one can find suitable body types in any race, although it will be easier to do so in Asian countries. The real rate limiting factor is the money involved and the willingness of of the parents to support the training. It is going to be increasingly difficult for any country to compete with an Asian country which has State sponsorship of skating. They have a larger pool from which to find persons with suitable body types and if the country supports the training process, they will overcome what is arguably the major hurdle in FS training namely the money. The US is simply not a country where state sponsorship of FS is going to be a viable option.
 
mag said:
Just for some perspective, Kaetlyn is 5’4” and very, very petite. Calling her taller and more shapely is crazy. You really cannot tell size based on a TV or computer screen.
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But Kaetlyn is relatively big boned. Just look at the photo of the three ladies on the podium during the venue ceremony, while wearing their skating dresses.
 
Vagabond said:
Eys. Plus, Misha Ge gets a pass because of Skating While Uzbekistani (SWU).
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I think a lot of this has to do with expectations, too. Misha gets a pass because most don't expect him to be a World Medalist. Any time he does really well (like getting a bronze on the GP), it's a bonus. But Jason was/is a contender. He's medaled on the GP a lot, even won at Challenger comps. So people want him to get a more consistent triple axel and a quad (or two or three) or to always skate cleanly so he can win without them because they think he has the potential to be a regular podium threat at Worlds.
 
topaz said:
There is no way Katelyn Osmond is "big boned". She has a lean and well muscled body for her height.
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I saw Nancy Kerrigan rehearsing for a skating special at Disney World in 1995. She took questions and someone blurted out that she looked so short (she is also 5 foot 4). Nancy laughed and pointed out that she competed against ladies who were "5 foot nothing," so it looked like she towered over them.
 
mag said:
Just for some perspective, Kaetlyn is 5’4” and very, very petite. Calling her taller and more shapely is crazy. You really cannot tell size based on a TV or computer screen.
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This is so true. The first time I went to an international event (Skate America in Hartford) I was amazed at how small most of the skaters were, and how slim. I continue to be surprised at live events when you see people who look statuesque on TV and are not in person. Also, when you have a skater with a lot of power like Kaetlyn, you really expect to see a bigger person in real life. TV is not good at all for judging someone's size, or ice coverage for that matter.

I just realized that I forgot about my trip to Worlds in 1998! Most interesting to see so many skaters up close. Very different than on TV.
 
@essence_of_soy

When I hear stories of young women having breast reduction surgeries, or developing eating disorders to stay painfully thin, or doing anything unnatural to delay puberty, it makes me incredibly angry and sad. Skating should add life to its participants, not take it from them. Is there not a better path? Do we need a champion who is a fantastic jumper, but has poor basics and immature presentation? If you are an experienced skater, especially someone who has a voice in the community, is it acceptable to just say "that's what the judges are looking for these days?" No, I don't think it is anymore. Maybe 30 years ago, all the top skaters had stronger basics, more refined presentation, and the only way to get ahead was add technical content. And women who wanted to compete reacted accordingly and harmed their bodies. But IJS has destructively sped up that process and given back nothing in return. The top skaters are usually not even good 'skaters'. They are 15 or younger. Their career is over in the blink of an eye and then they are saddled with lifelong complications and many of them, what did they achieve? Did they learn important life lessons regardless of medals or not? Or were they filtered into depression, body image problems, eating disorders, and cycles of self-harm?

@Frau Muller

Yes that's what I'm suggesting takes place. Essence_of_soy gave personal testimony to the fact that 30 years ago girls were trying to reverse puberty. It's the natural progression that at some point, girls (and the adults directing them) would try to one-up their competitors and delay puberty altogether. Yulia has hinted at this before. She weighed 80 pounds when she was competing, and bless her hopefully she is coming along now, but despite her improvements, I saw during the Olympics she called Nathen Chen "fat" on social media, telling you how much that mentality has been drilled into her from an early age that she has yet to overcome.

Take a look at Nathan Chen. Do you think he's fat? Nobody with a healthy psychology and understanding of the human body would say something like that.

As for your suggestion, I don't think rules or bans are the answer. Changing the incentive system would do much more. Will a skater starve themselves to be able to produce quads more consistently and neglect their basics if jumps were not so exclusively rewarded? Will adults take advantage of minors and lure them into destructive cycles if their undeveloped immaturity is not rewarded by the judges? Of course not.

@snoopy

You are absolutely right. It's the case of hoping for lightning in a bottle. And in sports even if you have all of those things, you also need luck. Sports are always a numbers game.

Japan-- millions and millions of lottery tickets. They are going to match the ping pong balls more often than we will here in the U.S. And then those girls will sharpen their iron against each other more often. It's hopeless for U.S. ladies with the current direction of skating.

Russia--willing to abuse girls unnaturally. Can we do it here in the U.S.? Of course not, it shouldn't even be a thought. And while girls and parents will often discard their own well-being to get ahead in life, there are so many more opportunities here compared to Russia. Good luck finding girls and their parents to sign up for starvation and life-long hip and back injuries when they could just go to school and get a nice job.

@brennele

What I would like to see is one of two things happen.

1. More focus on SKATING. More focus on mature presentation. In the judging. By the ISU. By the federations. Change the incentive system so skaters and their minders are not rewarded for producing 14 and 15 year old world champion jumping beans. Get rid of the undeveloped girls who are out of seniors in a year or two with lifelong injuries and eating disorders.

Ain't nobody in the developed world got time for that!

2. Otherwise, change your expectations. **** the Olympic competition results. Develop skaters who innovate in other ways. Develop them as artists with strong basics. Let them receive benefits from skating and enjoy their careers, even if they are placing at 10th or 20th at Worlds. Don't tell them they are fat behind closed doors when in reality they are 5'2 and 90 pounds. Don't write articles in the media telling them they are failures because they don't live up to your misguided belief that USA is the country of champion figure skaters and they are failing to live up to some legacy.
 
jenniferlyon said:
Do the top U.S. coaches even take kids that young? If the parents can't move with the kid, then the coach or a set of ersatz foster parents have to raise them because you can't leave a ten-year-old to their own devices.
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Some elite coaches that I know here do take kids that young, but not without the parents. They don't have 10 year olds move in with them or anything like that - the kid lives with a parent. And in my experience, the kid is relatively local. I've seen people commute 3 hours one way, do things like come down for the weekend to train here, but no one has moved house at that age.


Frau Muller said:
@ToFarAwayTimes - The Russian wonders aren’t Asians. They’re Caucasians. So are you suggesting that perhaps their physical development is purposely delayed or stunted? If so, how exactly? I’ve often wondered if certain medical manipulations take place, including reduction surgeries (nip n’ tuck) or regimens that may delay puberty until an Olympic cycle is over, assuming it doesn’t involve taking a banned drug? If so, how could the IOC ban such surgeries or regimens? That’s the skater’s (&/or team’s) choice.
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Generally speaking, using female gymnastics by example, puberty can be delayed by their intense training from a very young age. It messes up their hormones. Distance runners can also have issues with amenorrhea (no periods) as well. Perhaps also other elite female athletes. Not all of them, but enough that it's a known issue. It's not necessarily that this is done deliberately to delay puberty; but that it can be a side effect, as it were, of that level of training.

That said, I've heard that some coaches do deliberately keep their girl's weights down, to delay puberty. That doesn't mean that all thin skaters are doing this. And I don't know any coaches myself who do this. It's something that others who I know in skating have talked about happening.

I do know that in some countries, skaters/gymnasts/ballet dancers are screened by probable body type. The coaches look at the kid and at the parents to judge if the kid will most likely be naturally short, what their body type might be, etc. So it's not like a coach is trying to keep the kid's height down - the kid has been pre-selected for their probability of having a specific body type that suits the sport.
 
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