A skating judge walks you through the scoring system

[Aussie Willy]

Thought I would post this. I know it is going to open up a can of worms here. But ISU judge Wendy Enzmann talks through what judges are looking for and how they judge. I think it is a good article but then hey I am a judge - what would I know? And it is definitely worth watching the video clip in the article.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2...ml?s_campaign=bostonglobe:socialflow:facebook

 

[bronwynsings]

I mean, I was turned off immediately by that video when she called Adam's quad lutz attempt a triple. Even if she didn't realize it at first, they could've fixed it in post. Somewhat nitpicky, of course.

 

[Aussie Willy]

It is only an example. Not meant to taken literally.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Sure, but since this was apparently published on March 28, it could be construed as an article set up to explain why top U.S. skaters might not win. Maybe better to use as examples a lower-ranked international skater vs a top-ranked international skater, instead of picking on Adam, which is what mostly happened in the video.

ETA:
I mean seriously, this very pleasant and friendly looking lady/ ISU judge (Wendy Enzmann) from Stowe, MA doesn't realize that any which way Adam looks in the air don't f'ing matter now that he's been landing his demon 3-axels so consistently?! WTF alright @Xela M! Talk about nitpicking: Hanyu don't point his toes! Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah.

 

[Xela M]

^^ Sure, but since this was apparently published on March 28, it could be construed as an article set up to explain why top U.S. skaters might not win. Maybe better to use as examples a lower-ranked international skater vs a top-ranked international skater, instead of picking on Adam, which is what mostly happened in the video.

Damn right

Plus, she didn't mention how hot Adam looked in that costume. Wtf was that all about?!

 

[Vagabond]

"She's constantly in character emotionally while performing the difficult turns."

Take that, haters!

 

[aftershocks]

Damn right

Plus, she didn't mention how hot Adam looked in that costume. Wtf was that all about?!

"She's constantly in character emotionally while performing the difficult turns."

Take that, haters!

Both subjective observations, but I'm all in wid you @Xela M re Adam and his attire. Not to mention Adam's gorgeous spin positions which Stowe judge (Enzmann) for whatever reason did not mention in the posted clip.

Regarding Gracie's Firebird form and staying in character, uh, let's just say she was more in-the-zone at U.S. Nationals.

Of course, the irony is that Gracie was in a position to win Worlds but didn't, whilst Adam is the one who rose to the occasion and rocked TD Garden.

 

[Xela M]

Of course, the irony is that Gracie was in a position to win Worlds but didn't, whilst Adam is the one who rose to the occasion and rocked TD Garden.

...but didn't get rewarded for it whereas that uncooked bird almost medalled!

 

[aftershocks]

...but didn't get rewarded for it whereas that uncooked bird almost medalled!

Guess we just have to re-enroll ad infinitum in Figure Skating Judging 101, and stop already with the whining and complaining. When Stowe judge lady (Enzmann) patiently explained that she's not supposed to look at the program as a whole, or even try to enjoy programs, but must incessantly count spins, it gave me indigestion and I felt sorry for her. Does she ever take the opportunity to stay up all night re-watching the best event programs so she can actually enjoy, or does her judgeship status mean she is condemned to never sit back relax and enjoy the best skating because she's too busy examining leans in the air?

Pardon me for rating this 'walk through the judging system' as being more like a fleeting and not so enlightening dash. It was probably more for mainstream audiences anyway and not for die-hard fs fans. But if so, that's even more sad!

Still, thanks for sharing with us this attempt at explaining IJS from a judge's point of view, @Aussie Willy.

 

[Japanfan]

When Stowe judge lady patiently explained that she's not supposed to look at the program as a whole, or even try to enjoy programs, but must incessantly count spins, it gave me indigestion and I felt sorry for her. Does she ever take the opportunity to stay up all night re-watching the best event programs so she can actually enjoy, or does her judgeship status mean she is condemned to never sit back relax and enjoy the best skating because she's too busy examining leans in the air?

Probably she doesn't relax and enjoy skating. I spoke with a person on the technical panel at the Olympics and he said the last thing he wants to do at home is watch figure skating.

Just as professional chefs don't want to make dinner at home on their day off. Just as I, a person who works with words, have no interest in doing my own writing in my free time (excepting posts on FSU, of course )

 

[Vagabond]

Guess we just have to re-enroll ad infinitum in Figure Skating Judging 101, and stop already with the whining and complaining.

Sez you!

[JOE INMAN]
Transitions, transitions! Transitions!
Transitions, transitions! Transitions!

[JOE INMAN & JUDGES]
Who, day and night, watches all the skating,
Watches spins and footwork, monitors the skaters?
And who has the right, as masters of the score,
To have the final word on ice?

The judges, the judges! Transitions!
The judges, the judges! Transitions!

[COACHES]
Who must know the way to make a proper deal,
A quiet deal, a shady deal?
Who must do the politics and close the deal,
So skater's free to do his jumps?

The coaches, the coaches! Transitions!
The coaches, the coaches! Transitions!

[SKATERS]
At three, I started skating class. Last week, I learned C.O.P.
I hear they've rigged the score for me. I hope it's high.

The skaters, the skaters! Transitions!
The skaters, the skaters! Transitions!

[FSU]
And who has the right to moan and groan and bitch,
Complaining about whomever the panel picks?

FSU, FSU! Transitions!
FSU, FSU! Transitions!

​

 

[aftershocks]

I get your point @Japanfan, but isn't it also kind of sad? Surely then you are drawn to writing and absolutely enjoy what you do as work hopefully and in that way you are gaining enjoyment. And therefore in your free time, you need to take a break with different pursuits?

The thing about professional chefs though is that they must eat in their normal day-to-day life, so I'm sure they work things out where they either eat out all the time or have things prepared in advance to warm up so as not to spend an inordinate amount of time in the kitchen. Although if they are in love with cooking, I think some chefs (maybe the heavier ones) don't mind spending a lot of time around food.

In regard to Stowe judge Enzmann, she made a joke about her daughter challenging her not to discuss figure skating during their vacations, so it is possible to live and breathe figure skating I suppose. And then there can be too much overload and it's time to take a break, just as from forums (unless addicted) Maybe Enzmann enjoys more the behind-the-scenes schmoozing with skaters and officials, and just being very closely involved with the sport, so maybe that's her real enjoyment and the judging now is secondary, especially since she's not allowed to be even with the bestest of voidy, entertaining programs.

Sez you! ...

Who me, whining and complaining @Vagabond.

Harrumph, I'm merely sharing my opinions, offering suggestions, celebrating, expostulating, examining gray areas, trying to figure out why I have this love for skating, this fs fandom addiction ...

Unfortunately, I can't fix this unfortunate formatting I picked up from quoting you @Vagabond, since I'm not a techie. At least I tried to fix it.​

 

[MacMadame]

I'm confused because I thought the tech panel is the one who does things like count how many revolutions in a spin.

 

[Vagabond]

I'm confused because I thought the tech panel is the one who does things like count how many revolutions in a spin.

http://gofigureskating.com/compete/goe.html

One of the bullet points for Grade of Execution is "Clearly more than required number of revolutions."

Another is "Balanced rotations (on different feet / in different positions or variations)," which I've always understood to mean or include a balanced number of revolutions.

 

[Aussie Willy]

I'm confused because I thought the tech panel is the one who does things like count how many revolutions in a spin.

The Tech Panel count the revs to ensure it meets the level/feature requirements. So for a sit spin, in order to get it counted as a sit must have 2 complete revs in the sit position.

The required number of revolutions (eg 8 revs in a spin in one position) is judges call and gets marked under GOE. Less the required revs then you deduct on the GOE.

 

[VGThuy]

Sez you!

[JOE INMAN]
Transitions, transitions! Transitions!
Transitions, transitions! Transitions!

[JOE INMAN & JUDGES]
Who, day and night, watches all the skating,
Watches spins and footwork, monitors the skaters?
And who has the right, as masters of the score,
To have the final word on ice?

The judges, the judges! Transitions!
The judges, the judges! Transitions!

[COACHES]
Who must know the way to make a proper deal,
A quiet deal, a shady deal?
Who must do the politics and close the deal,
So skater's free to do his jumps?

The coaches, the coaches! Transitions!
The coaches, the coaches! Transitions!

[SKATERS]
At three, I started skating class. Last week, I learned C.O.P.
I hear they've rigged the score for me. I hope it's high.

The skater, the skater! Transitions!
The skater, the skater! Transitions!

[FSU]
And who has the right to moan and groan and bitch,
Complaining about whomever the panel picks?

FSU, FSU! Transitions!
FSU, FSU! Transitions!

​

Love it!

 

[Vagabond]

@aftershocks, I'm glad that I'm keeping you centered.

 

[dinakt]

I glazed over the discussion (no disrespect, just timing!), but the Fiddler on the Ice was superb))

 

[aftershocks]

@aftershocks, I'm glad that I'm keeping you centered.

 

[Japanfan]

I get your point @Japanfan, but isn't it also kind of sad? Surely then you are drawn to writing and absolutely enjoy what you do as work hopefully and in that way you are gaining enjoyment. And therefore in your free time, you need to take a break with different pursuits?

Yes, it is kind of sad. What immediately comes to mind is the veterinarian who has no pets of his/her own.

The thing about professional chefs though is that they must eat in their normal day-to-day life, so I'm sure they work things out where they either eat out all the time or have things prepared in advance to warm up so as not to spend an inordinate amount of time in the kitchen. Although if they are in love with cooking, I think some chefs (maybe the heavier ones) don't mind spending a lot of time around food.

Except they do spend a lot of time around food at work already. The one chef I know just wants easy meals at home, like Kraft Dinner or baguette and cheese, or a pre-made salad.

In regard to Stowe judge Enzmann, she made a joke about her daughter challenging her not to discuss figure skating during their vacations, so it is possible to live and breathe figure skating I suppose.

Skaters pretty much have to live and breathe figure skating. It's a very narrow and limited world - Elvis Stokjo mentioned than when discussing the long hiatus he took from skating while living in Mexico. Now he's back in Canada, involved in the sport again.

Coaches too must be have a limited focus on skating, I would think. But I'm not so sure about judges in general, or others involved in the sport such as commentators or reporters.

 

[overedge]

I thought Elvis was coaching skating while he was living in Mexico.

 

[Tavi]

So, is this judge the same Wendy Enzmann who chaired the selection committee for worlds?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...-us-men-face-tough-challenge-worlds/82401514/

 

[Japanfan]

I thought Elvis was coaching skating while he was living in Mexico.

He did work with/help the Mexican team, although I don't think he did so in the official capacity of coach. It was then that he met his lovely wife, Glady Orozco, previously a national champion.

In interviews he spoke of wanting to broaden his world beyond the narrow boundaries of skating. He was involved in motorbike (dirt bike?) racing of some sort, and also got involved in dog rescue, which is one of his wife's key passions. They remain committed to dog rescue now that they're back in Canada, and Elvis is competing in a form of auto racing, while also doing some work for Skate Canada (seminars, I believe). IIRC he said one of things he didn't like about skating was that it was so rigid in terms of scheduling.

Sorry I don't have a link at the ready for this info. I've always been interested in Elvis and of course am all the more a fan now that he's working with dogs, giving that I'm a serious dog person.

 

[aftershocks]

Yes, it is kind of sad. What immediately comes to mind is the veterinarian who has no pets of his/her own. Except they do spend a lot of time around food at work already. The one chef I know just wants easy meals at home, like Kraft Dinner or baguette and cheese, or a pre-made salad. Skaters pretty much have to live and breathe figure skating.

Yes, I think this whole topic is interesting and could have its own thread in GSD. Regarding veterinarians, or indeed experts in any field, I think it truly varies from individual to individual. I am aware of many veterinarians who love animals and who have many pets of their own (and who also do a lot of charity work and advocacy work on behalf of animals in their free time). Loving animals is what inspires many people to pursue a career path being around and understanding animals. OTOH, I have also experienced up close and personal a handful of vets who sadly do not really like animals and are not on their wavelength at all. Unfortunately, these type of vets are more caught up mainly in the science/ biology/ surgery/ lab experimentation/ monetary aspects of working in the veterinary field.

I agree most athletes do have to live and breathe their sport if they wish to excel at the highest levels (think Bjorn Borg, Pete Sampras, and top athletes in any sport). Making such sacrifices without attention to a small bit of time off for balance and perspective can be a problem for some individuals.

That's interesting about chefs, and the chef you are familiar with. It's understandable to want easier meals at home, but that might not be the case for every chef. I think it depends on their background, personality, family situation, what type of career path they are on (e.g., cooking show contestant chef, celebrity superstar chef, restaurant owner chef, or sous chef trying to make a living, etc). There is such an interest in culinary arts these days, with a record number of cooking-related television shows and cookbooks out the wazoo. Again, I think it would call for a survey before we could say for sure that most chefs don't want to be around food or prepare food off-the-job. Some chefs may be the kind who never stop thinking or dreaming about food and preparing and/or eating the perfect meal.

So, is this judge the same Wendy Enzmann who chaired the selection committee for worlds?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...-us-men-face-tough-challenge-worlds/82401514/

Ah yes, indeed it surely must be. In addition, I was watching Adam's fp again and again thus I ended up noticing what looks like Wendy Enzmann smiling (sheepishly?) in the background near the kiss n' cry area when Adam came off and was greeted by Raf, Max Aaron, and Derrick Delmore. If you look closely, you will see a lady wearing glasses standing in the background watching at about 6:15. And if you freeze the frame at 6:25, you will clearly see her head in the background while in the foreground Adam is hugging Derrick and Raf is hugging Max.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYMR4x75azU

This is rich, particularly after Enzmann's nitpicky comments while viewing one of Adam's performances which may be from U.S. Nationals, since Worlds hadn't happened yet when she gave the video interview/judging tutorial. I will give Enzmann benefit of the doubt that she may have had positive things to say about Adam that were edited out of the final clip. Enzmann mentioned during the video that she would not be judging at Worlds, but would serve as a sort of liaison for skaters and officials. That must be her in the background of this clip, and if so it is very ironic. There may be a better view of her on some other broadcast clips post Adam's performance.

Looking back at Enzmann's tutorial video, I can see she is an enthusiastic and knowledgeable advocate for figure skating, and she's probably an able judge and a selfless all-around volunteer. Still, it kinda seems to me in some ways that (however good a judge she might be under the current wacky system), at bottom she is a glorified skating fan who gets to rub shoulders with skating cognoscenti, and actually be a cognoscenti herself. Wouldn't we all like to be? I guess her current status should be credited as a deserving reward for putting the time in at endless, mind-numbing lower level competitions. Of course, I could be wrong, but this is my impression.

 

[Vagabond]

Still, it kinda seems to me in some ways that (however good a judge she might be under the current wacky system), at bottom she is a glorified skating fan who gets to rub shoulders with skating cognoscenti, and actually be a cognoscenti herself.

Bio, on page 10

Wendy’s skating background is extensive, both as skater and as an official for U.S. Figure Skating. She competed at the National level in singles, pairs, and synchronized skating and was an international competitor in singles and synchronized skating. Wendy holds official appointments as national judge, national referee, national technical controller, national technical specialist, as well as a national data & video for singles, pairs and synchronized skating. Additionally, she is an international judge for singles and synchronized skating. She has served on numerous committees including Judges, JETs, Competitions, Selections, IJOC, Nominating, Pairs, Synchronized Skating and Membership as well as the Board of Directors for U.S. Figure Skating over the last 17 years. She is the current chair of the Technical Panel Committee for U.S. Figure Skating....

Those figure skating credentials are a darn sight better than Ottavio Cinquanta's.

 

[gkelly]

Looking back at Enzmann's tutorial video, I can see she is an enthusiastic and knowledgeable advocate for figure skating, and she's probably an able judge and a selfless all-around volunteer. Still, it kinda seems to me in some ways that (however good a judge she might be under the current wacky system), at bottom she is a glorified skating fan who gets to rub shoulders with skating cognoscenti, and actually be a cognoscenti herself. Wouldn't we all like to be?

She was also a national-level pairs competitor, so she started out as more cognoscenti than someone starting as a fan could aspire to.

I guess her current status should be credited as a deserving reward for putting the time in at endless, mind-numbing lower level competitions.

There are years of thankless work that officials put in before becoming international judges, especially in a large federation like USFS, and that most still volunteer for in between the more prestigious judging assignments.

Some officials have other careers outside of skating and only devote a few weeks a year to the sport; for others it's practically a full-time job, with no salary.

 

[overedge]

@Japanfan not to worry over a relatively minor point, but I do remember a news story that, at some point, Elvis was coaching some skaters who represented Mexico - they were Mexican - Americans living in California near the Mexican border, and they drove to Tijuana (?) at least once a week to work with him.

 

[BittyBug]

Looking back at Enzmann's tutorial video, I can see she is an enthusiastic and knowledgeable advocate for figure skating, and she's probably an able judge and a selfless all-around volunteer. Still, it kinda seems to me in some ways that (however good a judge she might be under the current wacky system), at bottom she is a glorified skating fan who gets to rub shoulders with skating cognoscenti, and actually be a cognoscenti herself. Wouldn't we all like to be? I guess her current status should be credited as a deserving reward for putting the time in at endless, mind-numbing lower level competitions. Of course, I could be wrong, but this is my impression.

Yes, you are, and to describe Enzmann as a "glorified skating fan" is insulting. Enzmann has been involved in the sport all of her life, first as a high-level competitor and afterwards as a (now international-level) judge. She was the Team USA leader at worlds.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Some officials have other careers outside of skating and only devote a few weeks a year to the sport; for others it's practically a full-time job, with no salary.

It is all the volunteers in the sport that make it tick. Without them you wouldn't have a sport.

 

[insideedgeua]

Wendy was also Team Leader for USA at 4CC and is well liked by Team USA skaters.

I think the video was simply trying to explain to people who only watch figure skating a couple of times a year, that there is a lot to the judging system and that it's not just about not falling over.

I wouldn't read any more into it than that and I'm sure her relationship with Adam is just fine.