ISU has cancelled 2021 Europeans, ISU Grand Prix Final, World Junior Synchro; Stockholm Worlds still on for now

[Dobre]

My guess is Worlds is not cancelled until it is cancelled, or not. And it would be the Swedish government who decides that. Not anyone in this thread. And Canada will decide what they do when the time comes just like every other federation will decide. The only thing anyone knows for certain is P/C aren't going. Seems like all the skaters are still training for it, even the Canadian ones.....

I would not be surprised if this is the case. If it is, then the ISU or Swedish Federation or whoever is in charge of the event needs to be developing clear safety protocols now, so that athletes can be as safe as possible and federations can make an educated decision about whether their athletes are going to attend.

Is there going to be testing upon arrival?
Are there going to be requirements restricting travel, lodging, & eating habits around the city?
What is the procedure going to be for athletes who arrive & test positive? Who will be in charge of contact tracing during the event?

Likewise, the ISU needs to have a conversation about qualifying. Is the ISU going to guarantee all those Olympic spots it usually guarantees at Worlds? Because athletes deserve to know whether or not those berths are guaranteed.

Say multiple countries or federations declined to allow athletes to travel for Worlds. You're now going to send only one athlete from each of those countries to Nebelhorn? Only one Canadian dance team? Only one Chinese pairs team? Only one Japanese man?

Is it worth worrying about right now? Even if there is a chance that no one pulls out?

Yes. Because the athletes who go to Worlds deserve to know if the spots they earn for their country are guaranteed. If they aren't . . . if that decision is going to be made after the competition, then athletes should know that going into the event.

 

[marbri]

Yes, I'm scratching my head at just how Canada thinks it is going to be able to enforce the quarantine rules they are looking to impose on foreign travelers arriving in the country. ....<snip>... As it is, I still expect Worlds to be held. We have another week or so before we'll know for sure if US Nats wound up being a spreader event but it certainly doesn't seem that way and I think the ISU has a good handle on the bubble format for speed skating, so they'll work with the Swedish government, which is far less prone to employ drastic lockdown measures than the Canadian government was last year, and Worlds will happen.

Probably the same way Australia and a few countries in Asia did it. Also it was the Quebec government that cancelled Worlds, not the Canadian government. I also think it's really bizarre to compare what happened last year to what could happen this year in Sweden. Some posters who are certain Worlds in Sweden is doable were expressing shock last year that it wasn't cancelled fast enough.

 

[Erin]

Some posters who are certain Worlds in Sweden is doable were expressing shock last year that it wasn't cancelled fast enough.

Ha! Yes! I’m amused at this idea of a “lockdown overkill Canada” when on March 10, the Quebec government held a press conference saying “business as usual, Quebec only has four cases.”

 

[Karen-W]

Probably the same way Australia and a few countries in Asia did it. Also it was the Quebec government that cancelled Worlds, not the Canadian government. I also think it's really bizarre to compare what happened last year to what could happen this year in Sweden. Some posters who are certain Worlds in Sweden is doable were expressing shock last year that it wasn't cancelled fast enough.

Ha! Yes! I’m amused at this idea of a “lockdown overkill Canada” when on March 10, the Quebec government held a press conference saying “business as usual, Quebec only has four cases.”

I was surprised it wasn't cancelled a week or so earlier than it actually was but once we were within that window of less than a week to the event, yes, I was surprised that the Quebec provincial government shut it down. But, also, reflecting upon that sequence of events, everything in North America was preceding as "business as usual" until the NBA shut things down. March Madness and other collegiate sports, the NHL, etc, were all signaling "full steam ahead, we can contain this" until that 2nd week of March.

I don't think the situation last year with canceling Worlds and the ongoing discussions this year are comparable, to be honest. What I do think, and I realize I didn't express this fully in my comment quoted above, is that if Worlds were scheduled for Montreal THIS year the event would have already been canceled by the provincial and/or federal government, but that since Worlds is in Sweden, their government's approach in dealing with the spread of the virus is far different, so, no, I don't expect them to rush to cancel the event.

 

[Vagabond]

I obviously haven't flown but if there are international flights, do they conduct any sort of testing upon landing in another country. To protect one another, maybe Swedish authorities could conduct tests on anyone in attendance for Worlds

The United States is one of many countries that require passengers on incoming international flights to get tested before getting on the plane.

Sweden, however, does not appear to have any such requirement, only a recommendation that those arriving from Brazil, the United Kingdom, or South Africa get tested after arrival and quarantine themselves.

 

[Deleted member 221]

There's a huge difference between March 2020 and now because we have a playbook and some "tried and tested," if not 100% perfect methods.

We had no idea what to expect, and how to keep people safe (remember when masks were bad?), in March 2020. We have a good idea of what to expect, and what to do, now.

(The new variations may be a wild card, but so far, the data does not indicate a dramatically different approach is needed.)

 

[Marco]

I feel a lot of the reasons why many developed countries have so far been failing to successfully contain the situation after a year are reflected in some of the posts in this thread.

Mandatory hotel quarantine measures isn't about trust. It is about internal controls. People are evidently breaking quarantine, for whatever reason. The honour system does not quite work in a pandemic when people's lives are at stake and mistakes can be expensive. Stop focusing on people's feelings and rights when public interest should be paramount. This is especially true for countries where healthcare is severely strained (all countries?!). It is situation like this when Singapore and China show why the welfare of collective people are more important than the convenience of single persons. People might not be happy that they had to stay inside a hotel, but whatever right that was taken away from these measures got the entire country under control so much quicker and so much safer, and kept many more healthcare workers healthy and alive. If you believe people should not be yelling at staff for refusing to let them enter cafes or stores for not wearing masks, then why would you not believe in mandatory hotel quarantine for travelers? Who truly knows who is safe these days?!

And lawsuits? Right. Coz you are THAT much more important than the rest of the people. Policy wise, I think it is fair for the user to pay. This eliminates unnecessary travel.

Mandatory hotel quarantine measures is also about common sense. Staying home for 14 days is not going to help if you live with someone and that someone goes out to the community; if you take public transport back home from the airport; if you live alone but needs to get supplies; or if unknowing people handle your trash or laundry, etc. One contact could have ruined the entire quarantine.

Macau (where I was born) shares a border with China (and is part of China) but has had less than 50 cases and 0 deaths to date, I feel largely because they imposed mandatory hotel quarantine back in February 2020. Hong Kong (where I live and work) also shares a border with China, did not have mandatory hotel quarantine until last month due to a mix of commercial / political reasons. They have had over 10000 case and over 150 deaths to date. These are both tiny dots on your world map, both are ridiculously crowded cities to live, and are literally next to each other, but have experienced a big difference in cases.

 

[Dave of the North]

There's a dance that goes on between orgs wanting to hold large events and the governments. For example in the duplicate bridge world, there was an ACBL national tournament planned for Columbus OH in late March 2020. Lots of people were saying in early-mid March why hasn't it been canceled by ACBL? It wasn't canceled until the State of Ohio basically banned large events. This lets the organization off the hook for whatever contractual arrangements they had for hotels, playing space, etc. These contracts were signed way before YKW (like 7 years ago - so there's nothing in there for p*ndemics). The same thing happened before the summer NABC event in Montreal - they waited until it was certain the Quebec government would not allow large gatherings. Same for Fall and for this Spring.

In the meantime some bridge people are saying "let's cancel all the things" for the rest of the year or next two years or whatever. But ACBL is keeping the cancellations shorter term than that - for example they have canceled all smaller tournaments until the end of April, and will decide later whether to extend this.

Now, the case numbers seem to be trending in the right direction in many places, so it makes sense to continue to plan for Worlds and hold off any decision to cancel until as late as possible.

 

[Karen-W]

I feel a lot of the reasons why many developed countries have so far been failing to successfully contain the situation after a year are reflected in some of the posts in this thread.

Mandatory hotel quarantine measures isn't about trust. It is about internal controls. People are evidently breaking quarantine, for whatever reason. The honour system does not quite work in a ********* when people's lives are at stake and mistakes can be expensive. Stop focusing on people's feelings and rights when public interest should be paramount. This is especially true for countries where healthcare is severely strained (all countries?!). It is situation like this when Singapore and China show why the welfare of collective people are more important than the convenience of single persons. People might not be happy that they had to stay inside a hotel, but whatever right that was taken away from these measures got the entire country under control so much quicker and so much safer, and kept many more healthcare workers healthy and alive. If you believe people should not be yelling at staff for refusing to let them enter cafes or stores for not wearing masks, then why would you not believe in mandatory hotel quarantine for travelers? Who truly knows who is safe these days?!

And lawsuits? Right. Coz you are THAT much more important than the rest of the people. Policy wise, I think it is fair for the user to pay. This eliminates unnecessary travel.

Mandatory hotel quarantine measures is also about common sense. Staying home for 14 days is not going to help if you live with someone and that someone goes out to the community; if you take public transport back home from the airport; if you live alone but needs to get supplies; or if unknowing people handle your trash or laundry, etc. One contact could have ruined the entire quarantine.

Macau (where I was born) shares a border with China (and is part of China) but has had less than 50 cases and 0 deaths to date, I feel largely because they imposed mandatory hotel quarantine back in February 2020. Hong Kong (where I live and work) also shares a border with China, did not have mandatory hotel quarantine until last month due to a mix of commercial / political reasons. They have had over 10000 case and over 150 deaths to date. These are both tiny dots on your world map, both are ridiculously crowded cities to live, and are literally next to each other, but have experienced a big difference in cases.

Marco, this whole post is ridiculous, at least with respect to the rest of the world's actions in Feb 2020. We had a US President who was roundly criticized for being a xenophobe when he instituted a travel ban from China a year ago. This was being politicized even then and there is no way that mandatory hotel quarantines would have been accepted in the US at that time.

 

[tony]

The hotel idea is never going to work unless they are literally forcing almost every hotel in major cities to not accept guests and turn them into 24/7 highly-guarded areas. People have been traveling between Miami and NYC for example almost this entire time and never once have they had to really do anything once they got back to NYC. I know people that have flown to/from Israel, Eastern Europe, a lot of South America, etc. and absolutely zero was done. Miami doesn't give a shit so it's never been a thing here. People are traveling by the masses to Tulum and when they come back to the US, I haven't seen anyone say they've had to do any kind of quarantine either. I do have a friend that was in Miami last week and he told me he had to provide a negative CV test to get back to NYC and it had to be dated within 3-4 days of his flight-- I didn't ask whether that was because of his job or because of a new procedure. But you know people are just going to find some random test and use it as their own when they get tired of sitting in a 3 hour line.

Remember, I went to class last semester and got an email a few days later saying someone within the class had tested positive, and I was 'required' to stay home for 14 days. Even though I did it, who was going to make sure I did?

Most every idea in the US and elsewhere regarding coming and going is so half-baked or just words only, I don't know why anyone even tried to suggest such efforts. And if it's worked for your own country or your country has actually gone to a total lockdown, then great.

 

[Vagabond]

The hotel idea is never going to work unless they are literally forcing almost every hotel in major cities to not accept guests and turn them into 24/7 highly-guarded areas.

I don't know about that.

Here is what I do know. Chile for example has barred entry to non-citizens and required returning citizens to provide proof of negative test results before boarding flights home. Inbound flights are virtually empty, and the International Terminal at Santiago Airport is all but deserted. Australia and New Zealand are requiring incoming foreigners to stay in hotels for two weeks and are indeed posting armed guards there to ensure compliance. And here in San Francisco, many hotels are empty. The curtains in every guest room are closed, and there are no lights there at night.

 

[skategal]

It will actually help the hotel industry here in Canada which has suffered huge financial losses.

Non-residents have been barred from Canada, except for essential workers and family for compassionate reasons, since March 2020.

 

[manhn]

What I hated about airports is how when you have a flight that has a layover and you have to go through security again (and worse, immigration if it's an international flight). I wonder how they deal with situations like someone flying from London, England to Vancouver, Canada with a layover in Toronto? Do they quarantine in Toronto first? How would BC officials track this person when they are flying "domestically" from Toronto to Vancouver?

Have airports restructured it where passengers don't have to go through security again during a layover? That would be a huge plus when travel resumes.

 

[skategal]

What I hated about airports is how when you have a flight that has a layover and you have to go through security again (and worse, immigration if it's an international flight). I wonder how they deal with situations like someone flying from London, England to Vancouver, Canada with a layover in Toronto? Do they quarantine in Toronto first? How would BC officials track this person when they are flying "domestically" from Toronto to Vancouver?

The short answer is the Canadian Border Services Agency, The Public Health Agency of Canada and the Provincial Public Health Departments work closely together (ie. daily) to track incoming passengers and follow-up with them once they reach their final destination where they must quarantine.

In your example above, if the passenger leaves Toronto airport, they must quarantine in Toronto. But someone with just a few hours of layover quarantines in their final destination.

If the person quarantined on Toronto, they would now be considered a domestic traveler and wouldn't be tracked by BC (at least I don't think so.)

But if they then came to Atlantic Canada from Toronto, they would be tracked again at the airport or land border and have to do another 14 day quarantine as is required by provincial public health.

 

[Tahuu]

Can't resist to post after I read this "PCS"-related news as I kept thinking the term PCS we are familiar with.

This post-C'VID syndrome (PCS) study found that of 47,780 discharged C'VID patients, 5,875 died in 5 months after their discharges, while in the control group 830 died in the same period.

 

[missing]

Philip Hersh tells us (via Twitter) what he knows (1&2) and what he thinks:

Philip Hersh

@olyphil
·
4h

1 / Swedish organizers’ plans to try to have the World Figure Skating Championships in a Stockholm bubble (March 22-28) include letters to those who had signed on as volunteers asking if they would be willing to live in the bubble for 7 to 10 days.

2 / ISU Council has virtual meeting scheduled for Thursday but any decision on Stockholm worlds may not be made public immediately.


Among reasons why putting on World Figure Skating in a bubble is much more complex than it was to do US Champs in a bubble: US Champs had 74 athletes from one country (two if you include the handful training in CAN); the 2019 worlds had 167 athletes from 42 countries.

 

[MacMadame]

Have airports restructured it where passengers don't have to go through security again during a layover? That would be a huge plus when travel resumes.

I have never had to go through security during a layover unless I had to go through customs because I was changing countries. As long as I didn't leave the airport but stayed in the area where everyone has gone through security, I've been fine.

Among reasons why putting on World Figure Skating in a bubble is much more complex than it was to do US Champs in a bubble: US Champs had 74 athletes from one country (two if you include the handful training in CAN); the 2019 worlds had 167 athletes from 42 countries.

That isn't logical. A bubble is a bubble. Once you are in the bubble, it doesn't matter how you got there. Also, the US may have only had athletes from 2 countries, but an athlete from Boston had to travel over 2,250 miles to get to Las Vegas. That's longer than the width of Europe.

There are issues when people are coming from different countries but they shouldn't be bubble issues.

 

[Vagabond]

What I hated about airports is how when you have a flight that has a layover and you have to go through security again (and worse, immigration if it's an international flight). I wonder how they deal with situations like someone flying from London, England to Vancouver, Canada with a layover in Toronto? Do they quarantine in Toronto first? How would BC officials track this person when they are flying "domestically" from Toronto to Vancouver?

I talked recently with a woman from Fiji who has been living in the United States for many years. Her husband and she had been planning to move back home but deferred their plans because the only way they could have flown home was via Auckland, where they would have been in quarantine under armed guard for two weeks.

 

[Dobre]

Once you are in the bubble, it doesn't matter how you got there.

Worlds will have a much higher percentage of athletes that have to fly & mix with other people in order to get there.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

But the point is once they are cleared, they are in the bubble.

 

[aka_gerbil]

I have never had to go through security during a layover unless I had to go through customs because I was changing countries. As long as I didn't leave the airport but stayed in the area where everyone has gone through security, I've been fine.

You’ve never flown Southwest with a connection through San Diego or any flight connecting through Kansas City, I presume.

In San Diego, for some inexplicable reason, Southwest has two gates separate from the others that require having to go back through security. The Kansas City airport is bonkers. They have small clusters of a few gates with a security check point for each cluster. All services—food, restrooms, are all outside the secure areas.

 

[Dobre]

But the point is once they are cleared, they are in the bubble.

If you were infected on a plane, then you aren't going to test positive upon arrival. It's going to take a while for that to show up. As evidenced by the Rose Garden debacle and the Georgia YMCA camp. People who are exposed are recommended to get tested around the 5th day, right? So they won't get a false negative. I don't think anyone is suggesting that athletes quarantine for 5 days before they are cleared for the bubble.

 

[tony]

If you were infected on a plane, then you aren't going to test positive upon arrival. It's going to take a while for that to show up. As evidenced by the Rose Garden debacle and the Georgia YMCA camp. People who are exposed are recommended to get tested around the 5th day, right? So they won't get a false negative. I don't think anyone is suggesting that athletes quarantine for 5 days before they are cleared for the bubble.

But why are we still reverting to this idea that the plane is extremely dangerous (proven otherwise) or more-so dangerous because it's coming from location B than location A? If people take proper precautions, and the skaters surely will, the risk doesn't suddenly jump substantially because a country itself has more cases. If there's even one case out there, then everyone is taking an equal risk but can also proceed with caution.

 

[Deleted member 221]

The hotel idea is never going to work unless they are literally forcing almost every hotel in major cities to not accept guests and turn them into 24/7 highly-guarded areas.

It can (and already does, in some countries) work if a designated block of airport / other nearby hotels get reserved as government quarantine sites, with on-site guards and monitoring.

Have airports restructured it where passengers don't have to go through security again during a layover? That would be a huge plus when travel resumes.

No, and not going to happen for a few reasons.

Some countries, e.g., the UK, segregate departures and arrivals. International arrivals land in a secure area - which is basically a contained tunnel. The only way to get out of the secure area is to either go through immigration, or to show an airline ticket to security, which screens your baggage again and "readmits" you to the departures area of the airport. The US also segregates international arrivals and takes it a step further by requiring you to claim and re-check all checked luggage in addition to hand baggage.

Second, international standards are not always the same as domestic standards, re: liquids, electronics, etc. Some airports -- e.g., Heathrow and Helsinki-Vantaa, that are big connection hubs -- rescreen everything in order to ensure it meets domestic standards.

I have never had to go through security during a layover unless I had to go through customs because I was changing countries. As long as I didn't leave the airport but stayed in the area where everyone has gone through security, I've been fine.

In the U.S., it's not uncommon to have to go through security again if you are changing terminals. Not all airports have connected the secure areas of their terminals.

In the UK, I believe you always need to go through security again even if you have a connecting flight within the Common Travel Area.

 

[Frau Muller]

In the US, I can see the “Live Free or Die” flags coming out if authorities try to keep their own citizens jailed in hotels, with armed guards. Search lights & barking dogs too? I understand why this would be done (for public health) but it could backfire.

The best thing for US citizens is to not travel outside the US unless it’s a dire family emergency, for ex. In the case of elite athletes going to special competitions, such as a Worlds or Olympics, it perhaps could happen in a bubble situation with tests, etc....but for average folks like us, just stay home.

 

[ballettmaus]

If you were infected on a plane, then you aren't going to test positive upon arrival. It's going to take a while for that to show up. As evidenced by the Rose Garden debacle and the Georgia YMCA camp. People who are exposed are recommended to get tested around the 5th day, right? So they won't get a false negative. I don't think anyone is suggesting that athletes quarantine for 5 days before they are cleared for the bubble.

CDC still says incubation is 2-14 days, so, in theory, they'd need to quarantine for 14 days to be absolutely sure.

I'm not sure how well a bubble works without proper quarantine and with the mutant versions of YKW.

 

[Dobre]

I'm not sure how well a bubble works without proper quarantine and with the mutant versions of YKW.

Without proper quarantine, I think of it as a piece of the safety puzzle. Combine it would mask wearing, distancing, separate rooms, and the elimination of shared meals/time at the bar/mixing for recreation or socialization, then you should be able to seriously cut down the risk of spread even if an athlete that is unknowingly infectious is cleared to enter the bubble.

If you want a bubble that is going to allow people to mix & mingle without those types of safety restrictions, OTOH, as happened at the Georgia YMCA Camp, then one missed infection turns into a superspreader event.

 

[marbri]

CDC still says incubation is 2-14 days, so, in theory, they'd need to quarantine for 14 days to be absolutely sure.

I'm not sure how well a bubble works without proper quarantine and with the mutant versions of YKW.

Yeah. I can't believe we are still at the stage where people think it's enough to test someone on arrival.
And it isn't just about being on the actual plane. It's the getting there, the wait in the airport and the getting to your hotel. That's a lot of exposure.

Here they made it law now that everyone flying in has to get tested at the border, quarantine for 5 days and get retested. They changed it because (a) people taking the choice to quarantine for 14 days instead weren't and (b) people picked up the virus in their travels so tested negative at the border but later got sick. They do extensive contract tracing here so they are very confident in their findings. Now that everyone is getting tested the other day there were 14 people on one particular flight who were infected... so that's a lot of exposure.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

Yeah. I can't believe we are still at the stage where people think it's enough to test someone on arrival.
And it isn't just about being on the actual plane. It's the getting there, the wait in the airport and the getting to your hotel. That's a lot of exposure.

I don't think anyone was acting like it was enough to test on arrival. It's kind of obvious that there is more involved.

 

[MacMadame]

You’ve never flown Southwest with a connection through San Diego or any flight connecting through Kansas City, I presume.

I used to live in SD so I never connected through there.

It's still not the norm though.

If you were infected on a plane,

But people flew to Las Vegas too. Not everyone drove. The same will be true in Sweden.

Btw, I just had a thought... what if they moved Worlds to Las Vegas? The setup is really ideal for a cheap bubble experience and they have already had two competitions safely.