Increasingly likely “Russia” will be banned from Pyeongchang

[lala]

Ban Russia. Although I will miss seeing the Russian ladies compete, 1936 has taught us that appeasement does not work. State sponspored doping, manipulating foreign elections....what's next? As for Lance Armstrong....I am American and have always hated this cheating, extorting jerk; however, his doping was not state sponsored!

This is your shame...

 

[Deleted member 40371]

Ban Russia. Although I will miss seeing the Russian ladies compete, 1936 has taught us that appeasement does not work. State sponspored doping, manipulating foreign elections....what's next? As for Lance Armstrong....I am American and have always hated this cheating, extorting jerk; however, his doping was not state sponsored!

Haha, that is rich... 1) State-sponsored doping is being investigated by Schmid commision. WADA doesn't want to wait till then since McLaren report has addressed everything, at least according to them.
2) The manipulating foreign election is not a crime to compete in an Olympics, the fact that you think it needs to brought up shows nature of some in the western world, who wants to punish Russia for the political decision. 3) If you think the political decision can be made, how about the US, UK and alliance partners for the Iraq war and subsequent political decisions, also Donald Trump is also a j*rk, I believe the US should be banned for both these political decisions. There are whole bunch wars and regime changes the US has done leading to deaths of millions.
4) How do you Lance Armstrong was not a state-sponsored one since no one investigated US during USADA cover-ups?

The political climate in any country should not affect a country participating in the Olympics, otherwise, we would be left with a situation when these organisers will present an empty apology a few years from now, the whole bunch of athletes without a livelihood. The same news organisation which demanded a ban will make documentaries about the situation making more money.

 

[Willin]

@Domshabfan Because Lance Armstrong didn't have a cover-up. He wasn't caught by USADA because he was using a method of doping that there wasn't a reliable test for. In fact, he had a rather bad reputation in the US before he admitted to it because a lot of people were highly suspicious of him. He also bragged about getting tested frequently and not getting caught and took it as a point of pride that he was "clean." You better bet USADA was not helping him - if anything they were testing him a lot more because they wanted to catch him so badly.

And the whole "state-sponsored" doping is NOT covering for one athlete (although USADA wouldn't cover for even one athlete) - it's about systemic doping covering for dozens (if not hundreds) of athletes in multiple sports. And Russia isn't the only one being investigated for this, it's just the country that sends the most athletes to the Olympics. I believe Jamaica, Kenya, and a few other countries are being investigated as well, but none of them are really relevant to the winter Olympics unless you count the Jamaican bobsled team.

But I do agree that countries shouldn't be banned for politics. The Olympics are supposed to be apolitical entirely.

 

[Amantide]

Ban Russia. Although I will miss seeing the Russian ladies compete, 1936 has taught us that appeasement does not work. State sponspored doping, manipulating foreign elections....what's next? As for Lance Armstrong....I am American and have always hated this cheating, extorting jerk; however, his doping was not state sponsored!

Oh dear, don't go there. You would be very dissappointed learning what your country has done to so many other countries, which you apparently seem to ignore. Especially on the subject of "manipulating foreign elections". Don't open the "Pandora box", stick with the subject.

 

[skatingguy]

There were a couple reasons why Armstrong got caught. The whole men's road racing event started to come unglued with the amount of doping across numerous countries and professional teams. Some of his former teammates were caught and they implicated him. Finally, Armstrong's ego was what finally did him in. He came back to the sport after a blood doping test had been developed and continued the practices that he had been engaged in for more than decade and finally tested positive.

If you wanted to find a US doping case that could have had far reaching implications within USADA and the USOC than the Marion Jones scandal would be the better example. Jones' ex-husband, shot putter CJ Hunter was one of, if not the favourite for gold at the Sydney Olympics but he withdrew with 'injury' after the US Olympic trials. He had in fact failed a drug test and the results were covered up by US Track & Field. My understanding is that cover-up including concealing positive tests for a number of athletes but that it did not go beyond the sports organization though I wonder how seriously it was investigated at the time.

 

[sjs5572]

Haha, that is rich... 1) State-sponsored doping is being investigated by Schmid commision. WADA doesn't want to wait till then since McLaren report has addressed everything, at least according to them.
2) The manipulating foreign election is not a crime to compete in an Olympics, the fact that you think it needs to brought up shows nature of some in the western world, who wants to punish Russia for the political decision. 3) If you think the political decision can be made, how about the US, UK and alliance partners for the Iraq war and subsequent political decisions, also Donald Trump is also a j*rk, I believe the US should be banned for both these political decisions. There are whole bunch wars and regime changes the US has done leading to deaths of millions.
4) How do you Lance Armstrong was not a state-sponsored one since no one investigated US during USADA cover-ups?

The political climate in any country should not affect a country participating in the Olympics, otherwise, we would be left with a situation when these organisers will present an empty apology a few years from now, the whole bunch of athletes without a livelihood. The same news organisation which demanded a ban will make documentaries about the situation making more money.

I am the first one to criticize Dubya for the Iraq war and Trump for his foreign polucy dumbass escapades. Some people will turn a blind eye to Putin, however, no matter what he does. Killing opposition leaders, killing journalists, state sponsored doping, manipulating elections. I would love to see sanctions on the US for Trump's recklessness and I would think fair minded Russians and Europeans would like the same for Russia. Putin and his defenders' modus operandi is always the same: plausible deniability and moral relativism. You can't absolutely prove that we did it, and yeah but, they're just as bad. Well, that's Trump's MO as well, only I don't defend my rogue leader!

 

[sjs5572]

@Domshabfan Because Lance Armstrong didn't have a cover-up. He wasn't caught by USADA because he was using a method of doping that there wasn't a reliable test for. In fact, he had a rather bad reputation in the US before he admitted to it because a lot of people were highly suspicious of him. He also bragged about getting tested frequently and not getting caught and took it as a point of pride that he was "clean." You better bet USADA was not helping him - if anything they were testing him a lot more because they wanted to catch him so badly.

And the whole "state-sponsored" doping is NOT covering for one athlete (although USADA wouldn't cover for even one athlete) - it's about systemic doping covering for dozens (if not hundreds) of athletes in multiple sports. And Russia isn't the only one being investigated for this, it's just the country that sends the most athletes to the Olympics. I believe Jamaica, Kenya, and a few other countries are being investigated as well, but none of them are really relevant to the winter Olympics unless you count the Jamaican bobsled team.

But I do agree that countries shouldn't be banned for politics. The Olympics are supposed to be apolitical entirely.

In what world isn't the Olympics political? I suggest you never leave the "It's a Small, Small World" ride at Disney World.

 

[Willin]

@sjs5572 In the Olympic charter - which says no political statements are to be made at the Olympics. Of course this is not the reality, but "supposed to" is different from "is." The Olympics will not ban countries for purely political reasons, even if the countries themselves can choose to boycott as a political statement.

The Olympics were also formed on the idea of having an "Olympic truce" - based on the idea from the original Greek Olympics that countries would set aside politics for the Olympics. The Olympics are supposed to be a neutral ground for competition to occur peacefully and devoid of politics. Heck, part of that idea (that the modern ideal of the "Olympic Truce" is based off of) was that the host city of the Olympics needed to remain neutral in political disputes and wars.

So yes, the Olympics are supposed to be an apolitical entity. Whether or not that's the reality is highly debatable.

 

[sjs5572]

@sjs5572 In the Olympic charter - which says no political statements are to be made at the Olympics. Of course this is not the reality, but "supposed to" is different from "is." The Olympics will not ban countries for purely political reasons, even if the countries themselves can choose to boycott as a political statement.

The Olympics were also formed on the idea of having an "Olympic truce" - based on the idea from the original Greek Olympics that countries would set aside politics for the Olympics. The Olympics are supposed to be a neutral ground for competition to occur peacefully and devoid of politics. Heck, part of that idea (that the modern ideal of the "Olympic Truce" is based off of) was that the host city of the Olympics needed to remain neutral in political disputes and wars.

So yes, the Olympics are supposed to be an apolitical entity. Whether or not that's the reality is highly debatable.

Everything you said is accurate. Also, I do not believe that countries should be banned for political reasons. However, when state sponsored doping is part of a pattern of rogue behavior, banning seems quite reasonable as a punishment.

 

[lala]

That is ridiculous Russia will be the host of Figure Skating ECH 2018, the Soccer WCH 2018, Winter Universiade 2019 ( I know these but probably there will be more) so Russia is part of the world sport life. But Russia maybe will be banned from OG.... Why only from OG???

 

[caseyedwards]

That is ridiculous Russia will be the host of Figure Skating ECH 2018, the Soccer WCH 2018, Winter Universiade 2019 ( I know these but probably there will be more) so Russia is part of the world sport life. But Russia maybe will be banned from OG.... Why only from OG???

Seems like the bigger the competition is the more resistance to ban Russia. Russia was banned from Paralympics and IAAF and I think another like weightlifting.

 

[lala]

Seems like the bigger the competition is the more resistance to ban Russia. Russia was banned from Paralympics and IAAF and I think another like weightlifting.

Soccer WCH is the second biggest competition in the world and maybe the most viewed and popular in the world...but very close to OG.

 

[caseyedwards]

Soccer WCH is the second biggest competition in the world and maybe the most viewed and popular in the world...but very close to OG.

They have too much invested in Russia right now. They also have bigger problems they are still dealing with.

 

[MarieM]

Figure Skating or Hockey without Russia will be a farce I don't want to witness.

 

[clairecloutier]

Figure Skating or Hockey without Russia will be a farce I don't want to witness.

It's really hard to imagine the figure skating events without Russia. Leaving aside all the other issues, Russia is just such a huge player in this sport.

I was watching the pairs event at Cup of China a couple weeks ago and kept feeling like something was missing and that the event just lacked star power/excitement/pizzazz. After a while I realized--it's because there was no Russian pair there!

Obviously, the absence of Russia at the Games would be felt most severely in ladies. However, it would be almost as significant in pairs, where there is a distinct, if perhaps somewhat unlikely, possibility that the podium could have 2 Russian pairs. In any case, there would almost certainly be 2 Russian pairs in the top 6, with the third pair probably at least top 12. It would just be a huge hole in the event if the Russians weren't there, so just purely as a figure skating fan, I hope it doesn't happen. (In dance, the effect would be less severe, but still noticeable IMO.)

I do get that there is a lot else at stake here--I'm just talking as a skating fan.

 

[barbarafan]

I am the first one to criticize Dubya for the Iraq war and Trump for his foreign polucy dumbass escapades. Some people will turn a blind eye to Putin, however, no matter what he does. Killing opposition leaders, killing journalists, state sponsored doping, manipulating elections. I would love to see sanctions on the US for Trump's recklessness and I would think fair minded Russians and Europeans would like the same for Russia. Putin and his defenders' modus operandi is always the same: plausible deniability and moral relativism. You can't absolutely prove that we did it, and yeah but, they're just as bad. Well, that's Trump's MO as well, only I don't defend my rogue leader!

Trump is a monster but he is wandering around in a daze..Putin is pure evil but he should never have touched sport. This is so unfair of him on so many levels. I just wish they could do a ban on specific sports.I cannot imagine Putin turning over the samples WADA /IOC wants as there will be bad ones in different sports. Prob. there are loads there that are fine and among them good samples of all the figureskaters.

 

[antmanb]

I was watching the pairs event at Cup of China a couple weeks ago and kept feeling like something was missing and that the event just lacked star power/excitement/pizzazz. After a while I realized--it's because there was no Russian pair there!

Really? Tarasova/Morosov are fantastic skaters, but I don't find them exciting or to have star power (she could if they highlighted her better), and Stolbova/Klimov - while she is a standout star, their programmes this year are not very exciting (I found myself comparing them to Totmianina/Marinin at the their last comp).

I found this past GP in France to be the least exciting - James/Cipres aside the rest of the field was kind of snooze worthy

 

[clairecloutier]

Really? Tarasova/Morosov are fantastic skaters, but I don't find them exciting or to have star power (she could if they highlighted her better), and Stolbova/Klimov - while she is a standout star, their programmes this year are not very exciting (I found myself comparing them to Totmianina/Marinin at the their last comp).

I found this past GP in France to be the least exciting - James/Cipres aside the rest of the field was kind of snooze worthy

Ha, I loved the GP this weekend in pairs. Lots of good teams & good level of competition.

I agree that Tarasova/Morozov and Stolbova/Klimov's programs aren't their strongest this year. But in terms of their competitive level and their technical elements, I do find them both very exciting to watch. I'm looking at it more from a competitive viewpoint, though, than just a sheer performance aspect.

Or, let's look at this another way. If the Russian pairs were not in Korea, who would we see in their place? Suzuki/Kihara of Japan and Danilova/Kamianchuk of Belarus. And probably no one at all to replace the #3 Russian team, because there were only 2 listed alternate countries after Nebelhorn. 'Nuff said, I think.

Add to this that Ryom/Kim may not be allowed to compete ... and we still haven't heard about Bruno's citizenship ... And what currently appears as one of the strongest pairs fields in history could slide significantly in quality should the Russian pairs not be there.

 

[Coquelicot14]

Sjs5572 and barbarafan, we do not care about your political opinions. This is an inappropriate place to post them. This is about figure skating and Olympics and you pushing political agenda is only thinly vailed. Take this to PI forums.

 

[antmanb]

Ha, I loved the GP this weekend in pairs. Lots of good teams & good level of competition.

I agree that Tarasova/Morozov and Stolbova/Klimov's programs aren't their strongest this year. But in terms of their competitive level and their technical elements, I do find them both very exciting to watch. I'm looking at it more from a competitive viewpoint, though, than just a sheer performance aspect.

Or, let's look at this another way. If the Russian pairs were not in Korea, who would we see in their place? Suzuki/Kihara of Japan and Danilova/Kamianchuk of Belarus. And probably no one at all to replace the #3 Russian team, because there were only 2 listed alternate countries after Nebelhorn. 'Nuff said, I think.

Add to this that Ryom/Kim may not be allowed to compete ... and we still haven't heard about Bruno's citizenship ... And what currently appears as one of the strongest pairs fields in history could slide significantly in quality should the Russian pairs not be there.

Oh no I totally agree - it wouldn't be the same in pairs without the Russians there, I just don't know if there is any need to worry that they won't be there given the poster who started this thread I was only thinking that to me none of the Russians are particularly exciting or have pizzazz - incredible technique and elements, absolutely yes. But that performance quality that we see from Sui/Han and Savchenko/Massot? For me no.

At this point, i'm more worried that Bruno won't get citizenship and won't be there which would be a disaster for the pairs field as far as i'm concerned.

But Sui/Han are my favourites this season, and I would love Duhamel & Radford on the podium just because, but I'd forgotten how much I dislike the music to their LP this season so perhaps I can let them go for now

 

[rfisher]

If Bruno failed the 3rd test, I'm flying to Germany and murdering him in his sleep. It's justifiable because the Olympics are dead to me otherwise.

 

[kwanfan1818]

If Bruno failed the 3rd test, I'm flying to Germany and murdering him in his sleep. It's justifiable because the Olympics are dead to me otherwise.

But, what about Susie

 

[rfisher]

But, what about Susie

Is Susie isn't there, I'm dead anyway so killing Bruno won't matter. I'll do it for Aliona's benefit.

 

[Rock2]

I have only scanned this thread but I'll weigh in by saying I can't imagine Russia would be banned from the Olympics as a total team.

There are only two conditions that have been violated and they sound easy to fix.
More importantly though, money talks...and I'm sure it's flowing. I have to think Olympics take a hit somehow in TV viewership and overall level of interest because a full slate of the best athletes aren't there. Also, Russia I'm sure like any country would do, is paying who they need to to prevent the ban. I'm sure it will work out and would be super shocked if they were kicked out.

Yes, all events would lose a lot without them. I do not personally feel that having no top Russian pair in a GP gives me an empty feeling. S/K are one of my fave pairs. Highly watchable. But his shoulder is a mess and they are lucky to get 5.5 pts on the twist. Their programs this year are not the best.

T/M to me seem like such sweet people. I *want* to cheer for them but after the twist there is practically no reason to keep watching. And you can tell he's just dying on the ice trying to put up that last lift. They are out of gas with a min to go.

I love watching Chinese, Canadian, French and German teams so there's lots of skating eye candy for me. But yes, medals with no Russians on board would come with an asterisk for sure.

PS didn't know about Bruno's challenges. OMG I hope he passes!

 

[kwanfan1818]

PS didn't know about Bruno's challenges. OMG I hope he passes!

If he doesn't, there's always that bunker that Dick Cheney hid in after 9/11.

 

[sjs5572]

Sjs5572 and barbarafan, we do not care about your political opinions. This is an inappropriate place to post them. This is about figure skating and Olympics and you pushing political agenda is only thinly vailed. Take this to PI forums.

The issue of state sponsored doping is by its very nature a political issue. You are indeed pushing your own agenda, so let's not toss around disingenuous criticisms.

 

[Coquelicot14]

The issue of state sponsored doping is by its very nature a political issue. You are indeed pushing your own agenda, so let's not toss around disingenuous criticisms.

I am stating facts. Provable and concrete. You are stating suppositions and opinions, which by nature are personal.
Unless the supposed state sponsored part is proven, yours are just conspiracy theories.

The burden of proof is on the accuser.

 

[ks777]

If Russia is banned, I wonder if Japan can send 3 lady skaters instead of 2.... just wondering..

 

[sjs5572]

I am stating facts. Provable and concrete. You are stating suppositions and opinions, which by nature are personal.
Unless the supposed state sponsored part is proven, yours are just conspiracy theories.

Facts presented through the lens of rt.com aren't necessarily facts. Also, "plausible deniability" is not tantamount to a conspiracy theory.

 

[Coquelicot14]

Facts presented through the lens of rt.com aren't necessarily facts. Also, "plausible deniability" is not tantamount to a conspiracy theory.

Facts presented presented through the lens of cnn.com and such are not necessarily facts.

Media is not infallible.

Also, wishful thinking does not equate the truth, specifically if there is no proof.

Additionally, I find it interesting, when the truth comes out and someone is cleared, all of those screaming "burn the witch" are suddenly nowhere to be found...