Increasingly likely “Russia” will be banned from Pyeongchang

[ChiquitaBanana]

And we know the answers to these are

• No (look at the meldonium bullshit.)
• No (look at the way they booted Russia from the Paralympics on the flimsiest of evidence)
• No (look at the way they are specifically targeting one country at this point)

Can WADA truyl banned athletes or the decision is made ultimately by the IOC?
As for number 2 : IPC banned Russia on its own (based on what WADA's reports). So did the IAAF. Banning Russia was a federation issue. Few did, many didn't.

 

[SmallFairy]

But whoever wins ladies...it's not her fault the Russians (maybe) aren't there! It will be her moment, and of course, she may not have won if the Russians had been there, but no one can know that for sure. She will be the real winner, no matter what, as she has done nothing wrong, and no way she should have any glory taken away from her or nor should any shadow be cast on her victory. This mess was not created by the athletes. Refuse to accept to gold medal? Come on! That is just the silliest thing!

 

[VGThuy]

If the very unfortunate occurrence of the Russian athletes not competing in Pyeongchang happens, I foresee some/many people hating on the medalists there, especially the gold medalists...mostly in ladies.

 

[Loves_Shizuka]

If the very unfortunate occurrence of the Russian athletes not competing in Pyeongchang happens, I foresee some/many people hating on the medalists there, especially the gold medalists...mostly in ladies.

The ladies OGM would forever have an asterisk next to her name, at least to many fans.

A bit like the way some gym fans treat Mary Lou Retton.

I really hope it doesn't happen.

 

[allezfred]

I wonder why Maia Shibutani was tested 6 times in 2017, more than any other athlete.

She and her brother have skated more than once to Coldplay. There is clearly some kind of illegal substance involved.

 

[Japanfan]

The ladies OGM would forever have an asterisk next to her name, at least to many fans.

I'm sure not she would care that much, if at all. There were plenty of people who thought that there was an asterisk beside Adelina S.'s name as 2014 OGM in Sochi. But many more who would have just accepted it.

Adelina has done well for herself and has every right to be proud of her OGM.

Figure skaters at the elite level have to have a tough skin to a certain extent. The ones who thrive know that their job is to skate to their potential and that what the judges do is out of their control.

 

[Loves_Shizuka]

I'm sure not she would care that much, if at all. There were plenty of people who thought that there was an asterisk beside Adelina S.'s name as 2014 OGM in Sochi. But many more who would have just accepted it.

Oh I'm sure, and I agree, and many of us would be reasonable about it.

But many fans aren't reasonable...

I'm not saying there should be an asterisk against the OGM. Just that there would be to many fans.

 

[analia]

Never going to happen.
Nobody in the real world took the allegation against Adelina very seriously, especially after the whole Sharapova/Bobrova incident. It came late and simply didn't catch much steam. Consensus is this WADA inquiry ends up being a whiplash against WADA itself, embarrassing to say the least, let alone future funding problems. There is just not going to be enough political pull among Western European countries (tbh they are the ones essentially ruling the IOC, not the North Americans or the Russians, and definitely not the Korean bots) to wage war against Russia at this point. Nothing to be gained from it and much to be lost. ISU itself will lobby heavily against any ban on Russia. I imagine other Swiss-based sporting organizations too. These people are career mediators who wouldn't want their names attached to such a grotesque responsibility.
So theoretically no. But things do escalate if there are people committed enough to stir storm. It's all a matter of public perception. I guess whoever doesn't want Russians to be in Korea must try harder. Not a lot of time left.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

Yuna bots may hate Russian skaters, but Russia’s second biggest asset, as things stand now is South Korean Govt. They simply don’t want anyone to boycott, especially Russia. It is not the love of Russia, but the fear of North Korea, Russia’s biggest asset. There are only two countries with any leverage over north, namely China and Russia. If Russia boycott the games because they are not allowed to compete under their own flag, then as north may also just not send the team and start threatening behavior, They are looking for a reason to be aggressive. North Korean behavior have implications on countries like France and Germany competitions at the games. It is a cascade of problems can happen, as a result.

Russians are lucky that the games are in South Korea and not in Western Europe or North America, their is no way Russians would have been allowed to compete; not because Russians are guilty, but as a stunt against massive PR against them from western media.

 

[Meoima]

Russia is a huge market for IOC and ISU... I hope this means they will consider it well.

 

[caseyedwards]

http://in.mobile.reuters.com/article/sportsNews/idINKBN1DH1MR

More about how if there’s no Russia there’s no Russians!

 

[Willin]

@caseyedwards Yeah, but it's still saying Russia wouldn't be banned and Russia will likely be allowed to compete. Please read articles before posting.

And for those that say there's no evidence. There is no evidence that the doping program affected athletes in every sport - it appears it was only in some sports, and limited evidence that it was state sponsored. And those that are trying to say Rodchenkov isn't telling the truth - yes, he may be lying about who's responsible, but he was certainly helping athletes dope. This includes athletes, including Bobrova, saying they were given medicines that they couldn't identify by members of the Russian anti-doping agency that were supposed to speed their recovery. These drugs were apparently given to top athletes in Russia.
Russia itself even admits that samples were destroyed and doping took place - they just blame Rodchenkov instead of themselves. Which, to be fair, watching Icarus I have no problem believing that Rodchenkov did it himself because of the ego he showed, but I don't think that he could've carried out the wide-reaching program we saw. Not only that, but some of the evidence that has been found and released is pretty convincing - no smoking gun, and certainly room for doubt, but certainly food for thought.

Samples have also found that a very large number of Russian athletes in certain sports (Speed Skating, Biathalon, Cross Country Skiing, Track & Field) were doping, as testing of older samples have come up positive. Some urine sample bottles have shown tampering (not all flagged for possible tampering, but some of them).

Either way, there was widespread doping (state-sponsored or not) in certain Russian sports. Even if you disagree that this was state sponsored, and agree with the Russian government that this was all Rodchenkov's doing (with the help of the training staff administering the medications), shouldn't you agree that those specific sports with lots of evidence against them should be banned for these Olympics?

 

[caseyedwards]

@caseyedwards Yeah, but it's still saying Russia wouldn't be banned and Russia will likely be allowed to compete. Please read articles before posting.

And for those that say there's no evidence. There is no evidence that the doping program affected athletes in every sport - it appears it was only in some sports, and limited evidence that it was state sponsored. And those that are trying to say Rodchenkov isn't telling the truth - yes, he may be lying about who's responsible, but he was certainly helping athletes dope. This includes athletes, including Bobrova, saying they were given medicines that they couldn't identify by members of the Russian anti-doping agency that were supposed to speed their recovery. These drugs were apparently given to top athletes in Russia.
Russia itself even admits that samples were destroyed and doping took place - they just blame Rodchenkov instead of themselves. Which, to be fair, watching Icarus I have no problem believing that Rodchenkov did it himself because of the ego he showed, but I don't think that he could've carried out the wide-reaching program we saw. Not only that, but some of the evidence that has been found and released is pretty convincing - no smoking gun, and certainly room for doubt, but certainly food for thought.

Samples have also found that a very large number of Russian athletes in certain sports (Speed Skating, Biathalon, Cross Country Skiing, Track & Field) were doping, as testing of older samples have come up positive. Some urine sample bottles have shown tampering (not all flagged for possible tampering, but some of them).

Either way, there was widespread doping (state-sponsored or not) in certain Russian sports. Even if you disagree that this was state sponsored, and agree with the Russian government that this was all Rodchenkov's doing (with the help of the training staff administering the medications), shouldn't you agree that those specific sports with lots of evidence against them should be banned for these Olympics?

If all symbols of Russia are banned Russia is not going! If IOC bans all symbols it’s just like banning Russia.

But only excluding some sports didn’t work in fixing Russia. That’s why there is so much more talk now about totally banning Russia. The Rio model was a failure. Not even the sports that were banned from Rio have been fixed.

 

[Winnipeg]

The IOC either enforces doping rules with consequences or forget the whole thing and let everyone do whatever they want (not that I support that but the current situation is not great either).

Tough steps need to be taken to get this stopped

 

[kwanfan1818]

Russian Olympic official says doping whistleblower should be executed

“Rodchenkov should be shot for lying, like Stalin would have done,” said Leonid Tyagachev, who was the head of Russia’s Olympic Committee from 2001 to 2010 and remains its honorary president. He made the remarks in an interview with a Russian radio station.

Tygachev’s call for Rodchenkov to be shot sounds extra chilling in light of the unexplained deaths of two of his colleagues. The former executive director of the Russian anti-doping agency, Nikita Kamayev, died last February from an apparent heart attack. He was 52 and had not complained of heart problems. He had reportedly contacted a journalist shortly before his death, offering to speak out about Russian doping. Vyacheslav Sinev, the agency’s general director between 2008 and 2010, died of unknown causes in the same month.

 

[Bellanca]

Much ado about nothing.

 

[skatingguy]

I think the IOC chickens out on this. If it were a smaller, less significant country the Olympic movement they would have been banned in Rio and that would have settled the matter.

 

[Bellanca]

I think the IOC chickens out on this. If it were a smaller, less significant country the Olympic movement they would have been banned in Rio and that would have settled the matter.

Of course, they will chicken out. Plenty of dirty sport in the past with zero action and/or discipline from gutless, corrupt knuckleheads.

And Putin says a lot things, so...

Like I said, much ado about nothing - which is exactly what will happen - nothing.

 

[MissIzzy]

Quite frankly, if one wanted to call the Russians victimized here, the judges need to stop giving them higher presentation scores than they deserve. Multiple cases of it on the Grand Prix this year, and it just resulted in the wrong skaters winning for the second time. Even if you could argue Tarasova & Morozov deserve higher PCS than James & Cipres in general, they did not deserve three points higher for the nonsense they put out today. Particularly painful this week after the judges also made clear they're ready the hand Zagitova Olympic silver with presentation scores she doesn't deserve. (And while she more or less deserved to win this week, but she did not deserve to win in China).
The Russian skaters themselves may not be doing anything wrong. But they need to stop this martyrdom act.

 

[lala]

Can't Rodchenkov name any athletes? Or doesn't want?

 

[Amantide]

I smelled fish when Russian coaches had to let go all foreign skaters at their training rinks during the 2014 Olympic season. Was it a state order?

I think that was a problem with French Fed. only? I know italian skaters were not banned. And I anycase, I doubt that has anything to do with doping. I don't think they dope while training, using the ring. lol

If Russian athletes don't compete at the Olympics, would Russian judges remain on the figure skating judging panels?

For that matter, if non-Russian skaters are coached by Russians, would their coaches go to the Olympics?

I'm not sure about the russian judges, since they do rep. the country. But Russian coaches should have no problems.

But whoever wins ladies...it's not her fault the Russians (maybe) aren't there! It will be her moment, and of course, she may not have won if the Russians had been there, but no one can know that for sure. She will be the real winner, no matter what, as she has done nothing wrong, and no way she should have any glory taken away from her or nor should any shadow be cast on her victory. This mess was not created by the athletes. Refuse to accept to gold medal? Come on! That is just the silliest thing!

There will always be a BUT.....even today people say about Moscow Oly: yeah but many USA athletes were not there.
Will that matter for the athletes who will win? Probably not. In FS and ladies especially, they most probably will be happy and call themself lucky.
She will have the OGM no matter what other people say or think.

 

[Vash01]

The first thoughts that came to my mind were-

Lance Armstrong- it's not like those accusing Russia are sneaky clean themselves

China (and East Germany in the past) is known to use illegal means for pushing their athletes- doping, false birth dates (to allow very young gymnasts to compete when they were not age eligible).

I am sure more can be found from other countries but the focus in this case seems to be on Russia- disqualifying them by any means possible while other countries can get away with anything. That's why I find this whole thing disgusting.

The Olympics were meant to bring the world together through sports. Unfortunately the athletes are being used as pawns, but right now for just one country.

I had typed Squeaky clean. Autocorrect changed it to Sneaky clean. I hate autocorrect.

 

[Carolla5501]

Russia is a huge market for IOC and ISU... I hope this means they will consider it well.

I hope you don't mean this the way it sounds. Because it sounds like what you're saying is since they're a big market they should not suffer consequences if they did something wrong.


So if you're a large country with a lot of marketing you can do anything you want? That's just bizarre

 

[DreamSkates]

This one:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/story/868697001/

USA Today, Sports. Doubt this is fake news.
"
Those highlighted in the letter include Russia’s continued denial of the findings of a WADA-commissioned investigation that showed systemic and state-sponsored doping in the country; that the Russian government has not yet released electronic data and samples from the Moscow laboratory; that doping control officers be able to access Russian athletes training in closed cities for testing; and that RUSADA correct non-conformities found in a WADA audit.

“For these reasons, the CRC unanimously maintains its recommendation to the WADA Foundation Board that RUSADA should not be reinstated to the list of Code-compliant Signatories unless and until these remaining issues have been fully and satisfactorily resolved,” Jonathan Taylor, chair of the compliance review committee, wrote to Niggli on Friday."
We can only wait for the results. If there was doping, there should be consequences, otherwise, the Olympics as a contest of the best athletes, is a sham.

 

[Meoima]

I hope you don't mean this the way it sounds. Because it sounds like what you're saying is since they're a big market they should not suffer consequences if they did something wrong.
So if you're a large country with a lot of marketing you can do anything you want? That's just bizarre

Reality is... sport is a business too. IOC and ISU as well as many other federations also get benefits from the Russian.
They should just do well at finding out who cheat and let those who don’t cheat compete. That’s all.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Relax people.. Russia is going to the Olympics, one way or another. WADA found Rusada operationally compliant earlier this fall 2017, as per their own statement.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...to-test-again-under-supervision-idUSKBN19I1S2
https://www.insidethegames.biz/arti...sible-russian-return-at-november-wada-meeting

WADS is not officially reinstating "because Russia will not admit to state-sponsored scheme". It's a form of black-mail, to justify actions taken on the McLaren report. WADA has to "twist arm" or they will look stupid. But it has nothing to do with "operational standards" of RUSADA for the last year since their operations were in compliance with WADS standards.

Russia can't admit to "state-sponsored scheme" because the orders to set it up did NOT come from the "government".... If WADS phrased the question differently "will you admit to organized scheme by a group of people in the official sports capacity" the reply might have been different. But to admit to "state sponsored scheme" is not possible, because it was not organized by "government"... I am sure Russia will not have a problem stating "yes, we agree that a group of people in our sports colluded to cheat the system"..

It's not about fear of Russian doping today, but "ego of WADA".

Accepting the findings of "McLaren report" on events with took place 2014 and before has nothing to do with new standards of operation for RUSADA today. IOC members understand that and will factor it into their meeting on Dec. 5th, 2017.

(sorry if i am covering something that's been said in previous pages, i am swamped with work, did not read previous posts, barely time to look up GP stuff).

 

[skatingguy]

Relax people.. Russia is going to the Olympics, one way or another. WADA found Rusada operationally compliant earlier this fall 2017, as per their own statement.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...to-test-again-under-supervision-idUSKBN19I1S2
https://www.insidethegames.biz/arti...sible-russian-return-at-november-wada-meeting

Good point.

WADS is not officially reinstating "because Russia will not admit to state-sponsored scheme". It's a form of black-mail, to justify actions taken on the McLaren report. WADA has to "twist arm" or they will look stupid. But it has nothing to do with "operational standards" of RUSADA for the last year since their operations were in compliance with WADS standards.

That's not only thing, there's also the matter of the samples stored at the RUSADA lab. That, from my perspective, is the more important issue, because Putin will never admit to doing anything wrong. Those samples would prove which athletes tested positive during regular testing in Russia and during Russian National events, which were then covered up.

 

[skatingguy]

Lance Armstrong- it's not like those accusing Russia are squeaky clean themselves

Lance Armstrong is good example of doping where a particular event, in this case men's road racing, is infected with doping and practically every athlete is involved and coaches and sporting officials cover it up. It was not limited to one particular country and was being done based on professional teams. It is an example to contrast with the Putin doping scandal, where state officials and sports officials conspired with athletes and coaches within a particular country to evade international doping tests. The doping in men's road racing was so bad that a number of Tour de France titles, the sport most prestigious title, have been left blank because so many of the athletes that competed were found to have been doping or have admitted they were doping at the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France#1998_Tour_de_France

China (and East Germany in the past) is known to use illegal means for pushing their athletes- doping, false birth dates (to allow very young gymnasts to compete when they were not age eligible).

These are better examples to compare to the current Putin scandal. It is important to note that in the '90's, after the reunification of Germany, many East German coaches who were involved in doping moved to China. The Chinese had a brief period of dominance in swimming and athletics and a lot of questions were raised about the possibility of doping but the testing hadn't caught up to the methods. Recently a Chinese doctor, Xue Yinxian, has come forward and claims that ten thousand athletes in the '80's and '90's were doping and that basically no athlete was competing clean. It will be interesting to see if anything comes of this because the statue of limitations has long passed and at this point there's no evidence to back up the claims and the Chinese officials are unlikely to allow WADA to sort through their records to see if there is any evidence of doping.

I am sure more can be found from other countries but the focus in this case seems to be on Russia- disqualifying them by any means possible while other countries can get away with anything. That's why I find this whole thing disgusting.

The focus is on Russia, at the moment, because they are the highest profile country with a state run doping system in recent years.

The Olympics were meant to bring the world together through sports. Unfortunately the athletes are being used as pawns, but right now for just one country.

The Olympics were never meant to those things. That is a more recent idea of what the Olympics are. When Pierre du Coubertin founded the modern Olympics it was an international sporting created for the country club set. It was for rich white men. du Coubertin's misogyny, racism, and classism are well documented.

 

[sjs5572]

Ban Russia. Although I will miss seeing the Russian ladies compete, 1936 has taught us that appeasement does not work. State sponspored doping, manipulating foreign elections....what's next? As for Lance Armstrong....I am American and have always hated this cheating, extorting jerk; however, his doping was not state sponsored!

 

[barbarafan]

Lance Armstrong is good example of doping where a particular event, in this case men's road racing, is infected with doping and practically every athlete is involved and coaches and sporting officials cover it up. It was not limited to one particular country and was being done based on professional teams. It is an example to contrast with the Putin doping scandal, where state officials and sports officials conspired with athletes and coaches within a particular country to evade international doping tests. The doping in men's road racing was so bad that a number of Tour de France titles, the sport most prestigious title, have been left blank because so many of the athletes that competed were found to have been doping or have admitted they were doping at the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France#1998_Tour_de_France


These are better examples to compare to the current Putin scandal. It is important to note that in the '90's, after the reunification of Germany, many East German coaches who were involved in doping moved to China. The Chinese had a brief period of dominance in swimming and athletics and a lot of questions were raised about the possibility of doping but the testing hadn't caught up to the methods. Recently a Chinese doctor, Xue Yinxian, has come forward and claims that ten thousand athletes in the '80's and '90's were doping and that basically no athlete was competing clean. It will be interesting to see if anything comes of this because the statue of limitations has long passed and at this point there's no evidence to back up the claims and the Chinese officials are unlikely to allow WADA to sort through their records to see if there is any evidence of doping.


The focus is on Russia, at the moment, because they are the highest profile country with a state run doping system in recent years.


The Olympics were never meant to those things. That is a more recent idea of what the Olympics are. When Pierre du Coubertin founded the modern Olympics it was an international sporting created for the country club set. It was for rich white men. du Coubertin's misogyny, racism, and classism are well documented.

The chinese also falsified birth dates for figure skaters as well. Some of the oldest current skaters involved. Their birthdates were listed on the federation site but when they started to compete internationally the dates were different of their passports/papers. When this was reported in newspapers the dates were removed from the site.